Dear SE & Yoshi P, please address the AFK players inside instanced content!

Please hear me out. I know this community often responds with hostility to criticism and negativity regarding FFXIV, but I this issue is severely impeding my enjoyment of the game. In fact, it bothers me so much that I want to quit playing altogether. You may say "go ahead, we'll be better off without you". Fair enough, but at least hear me out and maybe this will resonate with some people.

I cannot stand the 24 man content. I have played this game since August 2013. I have hated the 24 man content since it's inception in 2.1. The content itself is fun and interesting, nice bosses, nice design, great music! But the players, the players make this content something I truly detest. Every single time I run 1 of the 3 24 man dungeons I am forced to deal with trolls, AFK players, lazy players and more.

The worst of these are the people who expect a free ride. They intentionally get locked out of the fight to avoid doing anything. Even when inside the arena they can be seen standing around the edge literally doing nothing. Sometimes they do something, they auto attack, you can see them, casting no spells, doing no skills, just auto attacking.

I'm sure some people will say "just let it go, who cares". Well I care, I find it disgusting that someone can be so fucking selfish. When half your party is AFK, the other 4 then have to work even harder to just continue the fight as normal. How is this fair? Why must I and others work harder because someone cannot be bothered to carry their weight? Why should I help these people to get free loot and such when they can't even participate?
The problem comes when you aren't even able to kick these people.

Iirc, truly afk players already get addressed.

They AFK the first encounter because 5 mins hasn't passed so you can't Vote Kick. They don't roll on loot until a battle has commenced so you can't Vote Kick. You can't do anything about them.

I just did Syrcus Tower for the weekly. It's reset day so you expect even a moderate degree of players. Instead we wipe on the first and second boss. I notice the healer isn't even in the arena. I call them out saying why aren't they playing. 2 other players chime in saying I am lying. We progress through Syrcus Tower with the SCH AFK the entire time. When we get to the end, he tells me he's reporting me for harrassment? Harrassment? Calling someone out for being AFK is harrassment?

How is this fair? Why is SE allowing these type of players to get a free ride, to ruin the fun experience many legitimate players are looking for?

In the 24 man content, I have seen a few trolls, but for the most part it's rare.
Lazy/AFK players, they are there but generally the content can be done with under the amount so it's not a huge issue. It's annoying, but doesn't stop the progression of the dungeon.

*NOTE these are my personal observations since the release of the 24 mans.

Truly AFK players are actually removed from the instance automatically.

...but I suspect you're complaining about those types that only auto attack (or even sit around with their weapon sheathed) while ignoring every mechanic, or as you mention, get locked out.

Unfortunately there's not really a good way to systemize a solution to that. It would be nice if players would respect other players in such content; right now I'm just avoiding 24 player instances entirely.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

Lazy/AFK players, they are there but generally the content can be done with under the amount so it's not a huge issue. It's annoying, but doesn't stop the progression of the dungeon.

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Yeah but this only applies when relatively few people do it. Ever since a certain patch I've had better luck with the fcob DF than CT DFs. Wiping again and again and then eventually vote abandoning cause too many people want to be lazy is bleh

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Truly AFK players are actually removed from the instance automatically.

...but I suspect you're complaining about those types that only auto attack (or even sit around with their weapon sheathed) while ignoring every mechanic, or as you mention, get locked out.

Unfortunately there's not really a good way to systemize a solution to that. It would be nice if players would respect other players in such content; right now I'm just avoiding 24 player instances entirely.

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What about some kind of rating system? Where we could give players a Thumb Up, Thumb Down depending on how they acted and then other players could see this rating easily inside content to know if that player is known for bad behaviour such as trolling, abuse, AFK etc.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

In the 24 man content, I have seen a few trolls, but for the most part it's rare.
Lazy/AFK players, they are there but generally the content can be done with under the amount so it's not a huge issue. It's annoying, but doesn't stop the progression of the dungeon.

*NOTE these are my personal observations since the release of the 24 mans.

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But this is my point. Just because the content can be completed with less people being active does that permit these players to stand around doing nothing? Maybe it's my server (Moogle EU) or my Data Centre (Chaos) but this experience is encountered with almost every single 24 man.

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Originally Posted by OtakuChrash

What about some kind of rating system? Where we could give players a Thumb Up, Thumb Down depending on how they acted and then other players could see this rating easily inside content to know if that player is known for bad behaviour such as trolling, abuse, AFK etc.

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These rating systems have been done many times in a variety of environments. While it can be passable, they do have numerous issues (such as being subject to gaming, popularity contest psychology, and so on). I doubt SE would be open to implementing a system in a form other than the current Commendations system due to the abuse cases. SE also tends to very much be against public shaming.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

These rating systems have been done many times in a variety of environments. While it can be passable, they do have numerous issues (such as being subject to gaming, popularity contest psychology, and so on). I doubt SE would be open to implementing a system in a form other than the current Commendations system due to the abuse cases. SE also tends to very much be against public shaming.

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Commendations don't serve any purpose though, they're just another currency to collect. They can't be lost and 99% of the time they are given to the Tank/Healer regardless of performance. They aren't a measure of skill or how pleasant that person is. I understand there are downsides to everything but I really really wish SE would implement a system that could punish those who intentionally create a bad community, not once but the repeat offenders. The people who actively troll, actively try to wind people up or cause a nuisance.

In my case my computer is old and really slow, and takes forever to load, and it has happened that the group starts the fight before I have a chance to get inside in time, so I end up locked outside. It has happened a few times in dungeons and Syrcus Tower and it has nothing to do with me afking. All I'm saying that while some players are probably guilty of this, some like me might have an old/underpowered computer and miss the fight unwillingly.

you cant adress that issue, its human behavior.

yoshi cant change the people who play his game

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

you cant adress that issue, its human behavior.

yoshi cant change the people who play his game

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They can implement a system to discourage this behaviour and to reward positive behaviour.

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Originally Posted by OtakuChrash

Commendations don't serve any purpose though, they're just another currency to collect. They can't be lost and 99% of the time they are given to the Tank/Healer regardless of performance. They aren't a measure of skill or how pleasant that person is. I understand there are downsides to everything but I really really wish SE would implement a system that could punish those who intentionally create a bad community, not once but the repeat offenders. The people who actively troll, actively try to wind people up or cause a nuisance.

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An system of upvoting/downvoting would have all the same problems, but the penalties for losing out on the popularity contest aspect (which, like it or not, is a big part of these systems) would have potential to be much worse.

Now, please don't misunderstand... I very much sympathize with the problem. I literally can't touch CT right now (for my own sanity) and blatantly carrying people bugs me on principle.

It's just really hard to systemize a solution to this, or at least to do so in a decent way. Commendations are basically the safest way to do it and I do think that helped a bit when the system was first added.

Now, consider the following scenarios with a system that includes some way to downvote/derate other players. If you're a DPS, and the fight's DPS check isn't made... even if you're the top DPS and know your rotation well, others will probably downvote all DPS. If you're a healer, and someone dies because they don't handle a mechanic, expect downvotes/derating. If you're a tank popping CDs and picking up adds quickly, but you die because the healers aren't on their game and then the adds proceed to murder people, expect... well, you know by now.

Honestly I think the best solution might be to make stuff less carry-able so people can't slide on by, but I'm not sure that would ever happen in CT-esque content.

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Originally Posted by OtakuChrash

They can implement a system to discourage this behaviour and to reward positive behaviour.

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More or less exactly what commendations and the vote dismiss features are, but they're just proving ineffective here. FWIW, when I see someone get kicked from a dungeon, if I run into them in a subsequent run, they usually don't repeat the errant behavior.

What about doing the same thing PVP does, when youre inactive for a certain amount of time, you get booted from the duty?

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Originally Posted by Teirafon

What about doing the same thing PVP does, when youre inactive for a certain amount of time, you get booted from the duty?

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This is already in dungeons and CT.

I am not a game designer. The team behind FFXIV are, the have the resources, know how, tools to do what they please and spending some time to create a rating system that works is something they could achieve.

Just as an example it could work like this. Instead of only picking 1 person at the end (a la commendations), you are able to vote on all the players present (barring those you partied with while queueing). You are then allowed to vote either GOOD or BAD. They then use this to calculate a percentage, similar to eBay feedback. Feedback could be shown per week, per month and overall. If a player maintains a low percentage (say 0-30%) over an extended period of time (1-3 months) he is given a temporary ban. If the player maintains a high percentage (80-100%), he is rewarded with something, gil, exp, tomes, a new currency etc. I think this is a good system and I just made it it up in a few minutes.

The auto-boot can be avoided by simply pressing a key, or moving a toggle, with the intent to prevent afk status from ever triggering.

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Originally Posted by OtakuChrash

I am not a game designer. The team behind FFXIV are, the have the resources, know how, tools to do what they please and spending some time to create a rating system that works is something they could achieve.

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That is probably why commendations and vote dismiss are implemented as they are. Outside of CT, these systems actually work decently well. Game devs don't implement stuff like this trivially; SE isn't very transparent but I would bet they've discussed these topics at length.

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Originally Posted by OtakuChrash

Just as an example it could work like this. Instead of only picking 1 person at the end (a la commendations), you are able to vote on all the players present (barring those you partied with while queueing). You are then allowed to vote either GOOD or BAD. They then use this to calculate a percentage, similar to eBay feedback. Feedback could be shown per week, per month and overall. If a player maintains a low percentage (say 0-30%) over an extended period of time (1-3 months) he is given a temporary ban. If the player maintains a high percentage (80-100%), he is rewarded with something, gil, exp, tomes, a new currency etc. I think this is a good system and I just made it it up in a few minutes.

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Ohnonono. See, this has all the problems I've mentioned before. These systems can be gamed and abused. And now you've just added a very harsh penalty for 'losing'.

If there's some way it can be done better I would be for it, but bringing mob mentality into the banning system isn't something I can support (and I doubt SE would ever do it).

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

That is probably why commendations and vote dismiss are implemented as they are. Outside of CT, these systems actually work decently well. Game devs don't implement stuff like this trivially; SE isn't very transparent but I would bet they've discussed these topics at length.



Ohnonono. See, this has all the problems I've mentioned before. These systems can be gamed and abused. And now you've just added a very harsh penalty for 'losing'.

If there's some way it can be done better I would be for it, but bringing mob mentality into the banning system isn't something I can support (and I doubt SE would ever do it).

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I don't think what I suggested is bad. Because in the long term, it will work well. Yes it's unfair if it was based on a day or a week. But if someone is maintaining a low rating over 3 months then they're doing something wrong.

Why can't you just ask them? Maybe someone came to the door, they have explosive diarrhea, baby needed changed and the list goes on. It is annoying when someone it truly taking advantage of people to get a carry/gear. If the player is in your group and said nothing then I guess you could afk vote kick. If in an alliance party maybe they explained why they had to afk or not, just ask. I like to grab a snack/drink or use the restroom during trash pulls. Not sure if that makes me a bad player but o'well.

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Originally Posted by OtakuChrash

"i have terrible luck"

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Sounds like bad luck to me. in the last 2 weeks i've only run the 24 player raids just for the weekly. For that total accumulation everything has been a 1 shot, everyone were playing selflessly, dps quickly switching to adds, all healers contributing to healing the mt, and OT's actually doing something in WoD. In ST Scylla, that roegadyn dude, never lived to their last phase. The only near wipe was when we were at King Behemoth in LotA, all 3 meteors literally came less than 20 seconds from each other, causing the 2nd one to catch half the raid by surprise, good thing as a healer i survived popped PoM and went to crazy raise mode, 2 other whms were alive and went into the same frenzy, ironically none of the 6 drgs in this particular raid fell to meteors, it was just that good.

Roll of the dice.

Dont blame the players, dont blame the attraction. Be that person that inspires a fun random raid with a few snazzy sarcastic comments and watch the fun and synergy of the raid skyrocket. Going in bitter from start to end, and always expecting there to be a handful of baddies, thats a terrible way to enjoy the game.

I sympathize with you, I see many of these players in CT, and as such, I avoid the place desperately, unless an FC member is in need and asks me directly. I'd like to be able to deal with these players too, but it's tough to find a system that works but doesn't risk detracting from an honest player's experience. In the meantime, try going with friends if you're able. At least having someone there to stick up for you or QQ alongside you helps diminish the pain.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

Sounds like bad luck to me. in the last 2 weeks i've only run the 24 player raids just for the weekly. For that total accumulation everything has been a 1 shot, everyone were playing selflessly, dps quickly switching to adds, all healers contributing to healing the mt, and OT's actually doing something in WoD. In ST Scylla, that roegadyn dude, never lived to their last phase. The only near wipe was when we were at King Behemoth in LotA, all 3 meteors literally came less than 20 seconds from each other, causing the 2nd one to catch half the raid by surprise, good thing as a healer i survived popped PoM and went to crazy raise mode, 2 other whms were alive and went into the same frenzy, ironically none of the 6 drgs in this particular raid fell to meteors, it was just that good.

Roll of the dice.

Dont blame the players, dont blame the attraction. Be that person that inspires a fun random raid with a few snazzy sarcastic comments and watch the fun and synergy of the raid skyrocket. Going in bitter from start to end, and always expecting there to be a handful of baddies, thats a terrible way to enjoy the game.

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I will admit I complain on the forums as much as anyone but this person actually has it right. As long as things are progressing at a decent pace in a duty finder 24 man team which is the equivalent of lfr in wow people will abuse the system and play half ass and afk fights. Just do not let them get to you and enjoy yourself. I should take that advice to heart and so should most of our players.

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Originally Posted by OtakuChrash

I cannot stand the 24 man content. I have played this game since August 2013. I have hated the 24 man content since it's inception in 2.1. The content itself is fun and interesting, nice bosses, nice design, great music! But the players, the players make this content something I truly detest. Every single time I run 1 of the 3 24 man dungeons I am forced to deal with trolls, AFK players, lazy players and more.

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I'm not sure what incompetent data center you're in but that's almost never the case here.

If SE wanted to "nudge" a fix for this, they would:
1. Not allow players to "need" on a roll if they are locked out or return to the entrance.
2. Not allow players to "need" or "greed" on a roll if they spend more than half the time dead or locked out of each boss room.

And if you really want to get the point across, the server should not unlock the next boss room until everyone has rolled, and state who is holding it up.

If I see anyone locked out of the arena, I run up to them and /wave a couple of times or so. Sometimes people start noticing and start calling them out for it. Of course, legitimate reasons are dealt with accordingly. xD

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Not allow players to "need" or "greed" on a roll if they spend more than half the time dead or locked out of each boss room.

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The way these runs are conducted today it's fairly common for people to get locked out. Seems to me some tanks speed run everything. Common refrain is it's old content if they get called out on it.

When I was on a "hunt" over a month ago(I've quit -> time/effort waste) to get the WoD lv120 gears (class Ninja for ninja gears, class tank for tank gears etc)
I sometimes got pissed by damn troll RNG so badly (27runs as Ninja and NOT ANY Ninja gear dropped D: )

I mean.. I did whole 27 WoD as Ninja and everything dropped 3-6x but NO Ninja gear!? >_>
As soon I've quit as Ninja and started to play as DRG... BOOM 2 Ninja gears in a ROW and of course I lost the rolls due really low numbers!!
WTF is that? D: <

I said in group chat very mean stuff about the broken and unfair RNG and Im not doing anything from now on! I asked for a boot! So I can do other stuff not RNG related - rouletes for tome!

I blame the worse RNG in History this nice game sadly has that people are trolling and afking because they are simply frustrated doing the same dungeon over and over and get not any reward! (who still farms countless of low-lv dungeons for a tiny relic upgrade hmm?)