Should I keep staying with Dragoon or swap to another melee?

Heya, so a few weeks ago I decided that I wanted to swap to maining a melee class in Heavensward instead of staying with magic so as to continue the trend of me playing melee in games. I went Dragoon cause I asked on another forum and it was the most recommended job to go.

I've been trying my best at doing well at it and I came here to look at a guide on improving and came across the A Rotation Reborn topic for Dragoons and... well it has me stressing and worried over this choice. I've dabbled with melee in other games such as World of Warcraft and I've never had one that had such a long rotation. I know I won't be able to memorize it as I make mistakes just trying to do the most basic of Dragoon stuff.

It really makes me wonder if I should swap to Monk or Ninja or even just go back to being a Blm/Smn, but at the same time I want to keep being melee so as to break my "addiction" to magic based classes in MMOs. So I come to ask you guys for advice.

Don't think of it as a rotation. It's a Priority system.

Ninja and Monk have even longer Priorities.

I've had a pretty fun time switching it up with MNK and BLM recently, but I'm still a DRG player at the core.

There's no harm in checking out the other classes to see if you like them or not. You can always go back to DRG if you don't.

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Don't think of it as a rotation. It's a Priority system.

Ninja and Monk have even longer Priorities.

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Really, but I remember over the months since 2.0 from various forums and dragoons in dungeons saying that dragoon was the most complicated of the jobs to play. If I treat it like a priority system, similar to Smn, it becomes simpler while still being competitive?

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I've had a pretty fun time switching it up with MNK and BLM recently, but I'm still a DRG player at the core.

There's no harm in checking out the other classes to see if you like them or not. You can always go back to DRG if you don't.

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Under normal conditions I would do that, but to do so currently means I have to level up Monk and Ninja and at the moment my Monk is level 39 and Rogue is 22 and I've yet to get more than one dungeon a day with them, so I usually give out since the remaining options for leveling them tend to feel very boring to me. :(

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

Really, but I remember over the months since 2.0 from various forums and dragoons in dungeons saying that dragoon was the most complicated of the jobs to play. If I treat it like a priority system, similar to Smn, it becomes simpler while still being competitive?

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It is a priority system. Think about how the job plays out. You maintain Heavy Thrust at all times. Juggle your DoTs, then throw in Full Thrust Combo as a filler. That's the definition of a Priority. That's all there is to the Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

It is a priority system. Think about how the job plays out. You maintain Heavy Thrust at all times. Juggle your DoTs, then throw in Full Thrust Combo as a filler. That's the definition of a Priority. That's all there is to the Dragoon.

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Oh, well in that case, maybe this isn't as hard as I was thinking. I'm use to priority systems since that's how most classes in WoW play so I can do that. :)

i wouldnt say its strictly a priority, i'de probably say its closer to a half rotation half priority, when you think about the combo chains its really not that bad though, you simply alternate between using a combo chain and then use either heavy thrust or phlebotomise, depending on which is about to fall.

that being said im no main dragoon by any means, if your struggling with the "rotation" so much that you feel like a change in class though, i would say as far as what skill you have to use next, monk is probably the easiest of the 3 melles, the constant swapping of flank/rear can be a problem for some people though, so theres still a bit to practice, to me though monk probably comes under the same catagory as blm, (easy to learn, hard to master) as you will need to be changing something in almost every fight to ensure stacks arnt lost.
ninja is kind of its own beast, the times on buffs/debuffs dont really align cleanly like the other 2 melles do, but its similar to dragoon in terms of just being a giant priority system.

Well before when I was going off a video guide for Dragoon I was doing fine as far as I could tell. Aside from small delays on using skills (mostly Spineshatter Dive and the other stun move since I worry about the stun resist) I was going through the 2 sets of combos and keeping up my debuffs and buffs with only missing a second or two of uptime on rare occasions. Overall I'm loving Dragoon and it feels right up my ally in terms of melee, it was just when I started reading that A Rotation Reborn topic that I began to have second thoughts and worry since it shows such long chains as a rotation and I was thinking I had been playing wrong and had to learn what the rotation they were listing in the topic.

The longer changes in that thread are all just examples really which shows how the priority loops. That's why we use this format for our "rotation":

H IDC P TTT
H TTT P IDC
H TTT P TTT

When you put it like that, it's still "long", but it's a loop and you can observe how simplistic the Dragoon is. It's odd, because many people still have trouble with it. As for the delays when using your oCDs, the timing just comes with a lot of practice. I just do everything without thinking as it's now muscle memory, takes time.

If I were to be honest, one of the best places to learn to practice your Dragoons Priority is on Titan EX. It teaches you how to time/delay jumps, the interaction between your DoTs and TTT, learn to spread out your abilities throughout multiple targets for overall raid optimisation and min/max DPS, whilst avoiding "complex" mechanics and AOE's. Hands down best fight to learn your job.

Ah, well if that is the case with the skills, I've been doing that consistently with only a rare flub up when I'm forced away from the boss or swapping to adds. As for practicing on Titan EX, as much as I'd like to, that's not much of an option on my server and I have tried doing it via DF since it was first added since I didn't find groups that could get very far into the fight, but I could give it another go.

Though one thing I'm wondering is aoe. Currently I've been using HT > RoT > Doomspike until less than 500 TP > Invigorate > RoT until 500 Tp, then normal attacks. I'm sure this probably isn't right, but I've no idea. x_x

Just keep trying OP, with practice you'll get it down easy. :) You can also try other melee jobs and see which ultimately you prefer.

It's not too bad when you get used to it. Just practice and stick with it. IMO its the easiest of the melee dps jobs. But even so you can always switch again if you don;t like it. I would say go with whatever you are best at playing and is most fun for you.

Listen to Dervy OP - he knows what he is talking about.

Too many new players get locked into the idea of "rotation" and try to memorize a series of 64 skills or something ridiculous.

Every dps class in this game is a priority system, some more, some less - but the melee dps are very much so a priority system. It all boils down to keeping your buff attacks up (Heavy Thrust for you) in addition to all your dots. Once those priorities are met, you do your 1,2,3 dps filler rotation until you have to refresh a dot or buff (these long rotation guides are describing this actually, just in a very long way).

Ah, alright, I'll keep persisting with Dragoon then since I really do love the theme of Dragoon and the look of it's skills as well. Thank you all, I'll keep practicing and using Dragoon. :)

Nothing can replace muscle memory. It's the only way to get good, you can read all the guides you want but you won't start excelling until you actually play the class for enough time that pressing buttons immediately on global cooldowns is secondary nature instead of having pauses in decision making that nerf your DPS.

You can switch to whatever class you want, you'll still be deficient in all of them if you don't devote enough time to playing one. People are not good overnight. Especially if you're a fresh 50 because the truth is leveling teaches you nothing about your job on real content, in fact it often creates bad habits I wish they'd get rid of that archaic mechanic in MMO's but oh well MMO developers seems fond of the very bad idea of introducing content to an MMO that is quickly made obsolete.

Really, it's a fairly simple priority system, it's just that two of the slots in that priority system are 3-skill mini-rotations. Otherwise it's just a matter of dropping your off-GCD abilities in when you can (which generally means as soon as possible, unless you're delaying them to line up with a specific boss mechanic) and hitting a couple of positionals. It's far less complicated than monk (which ha a LOT more positionals to deal with) or ninja (which has the "delightful" mudra system that hates anyone who doesn't live next door to the data centre).

I recommend you try to find some very basic patterns for any job you want to play on.

Mastering the basic part of your "rotation" or rather how to prioritize your abilities, comes much longer than trying to master everything and failing...

There are a lot of abilities to remember for DRG, but just focus on the GCD abilities to start with.

Go to a striking dummy and train on this basic rotation that Dervy said:

H IDC P TTT
H TTT P IDC
H TTT P TTT

It won't always be like that in a fight, because of mechanics and other things, but I always recommend learning the perfect scenario rotation enough to be able to do it in your sleep. Don't bother with buffs and other oGCD abilities to start with.

Once you can do that easily without having to think about it too much (that will kill you during a boss battle, or lower your DPS), you can then start to including some of the oGCD abilities.

Eventually it will be very easy, trust me.

http://i.imgur.com/hJFTfLf.png

This image pretty much simplify drg rotation, putting it like a priority system. Hope it helps.
Just remember to do yours oGCD between GCD and use buffs.

Credits for user Ayvar ('Dragoon: A rotation reborn' thread)

Two players already note the full rotation of DRGs.
For example: HT IDC Phle TTT
Think of IDC and TTT as purely separate combos in the rotation and use Phlebotomize as your bridge to connect the two. HT, treat it as your opener to the next set of combos.
So basically, what two others have posted:
HT IDC Phle TTT
HT TTT Phle IDC
HT TTT Phle TTT

And loop back.

1 button: HT / Phleb
3 button: IDC / TTT

Before every 3 button combo, do a 1 button move.

1 button move rotation: HT -> Phleb
3 button rotation: IDC -> TTT -> TTT

That's how I remember it rotation-wise, at least. If you're more of a priority guy: HT > IDC > Phleb > TTT.

DRG's main difficulty isn't actually the rotation, but maximizing your oGCD CDs/abilities. Could just be me, but I find MNK significantly easier to play because I don't have to keep an eye on 500 CDs/abilities at once. D;

Since you can clip dots now you don't have to do the stupid jump delay crap Ayvar, Easy were working wayyy back when that was an issue with BfB and such, basically destroying your second CT combo.

That, and annoying >GCD jump delays are the only difficult aspects of dragoon.

Oh and that, you MUST make your positionals or your dots/buffs/rotation simply don't apply. That is what makes dragoon harder than monk. If you mess up as a monk, well, you just do a bit less damage. You still get GL, you still apply your buff, etc. For DRG, if you mess up a positional you blow up that entire combo.

PS that rotation flowchart has a disturbing lack of JOHN MADDEN. How can you hope to do good dps without it?

^ not any more. You will still combo but you'll do less dps

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

1 button: HT / Phleb
3 button: IDC / TTT

Before every 3 button combo, do a 1 button move.

1 button move rotation: HT -> Phleb
3 button rotation: IDC -> TTT -> TTT

That's how I remember it rotation-wise, at least. If you're more of a priority guy: HT > IDC > Phleb > TTT.

DRG's main difficulty isn't actually the rotation, but maximizing your oGCD CDs/abilities. Could just be me, but I find MNK significantly easier to play because I don't have to keep an eye on 500 CDs/abilities at once. D;

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I'd have to agree. It feels like the biggest challenge with MNK is keeping stacks and not getting tunnel vision =\.

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Originally Posted by RachaelMarie22

^ not any more. You will still combo but you'll do less dps

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Oh, well thats good!

Yeah, I am very glad that they removed the "no-positional == no combo" limitation.

Heavy Thrust! - damnit, missed - Heavy Thrust! - god damnit - Heavy Thrust! - STOP SPINNING THE MOB

Tanks who couldn't sit still were the bane of all Dragoons everywhere

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Originally Posted by spelley

Yeah, I am very glad that they removed the "no-positional == no combo" limitation.

Heavy Thrust! - damnit, missed - Heavy Thrust! - god damnit - Heavy Thrust! - STOP SPINNING THE MOB

Tanks who couldn't sit still were the bane of all Dragoons everywhere

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if you ask me its more devastating on ninja when that happens, usually something along the lines of:
"ok i got suiton up, now to tric... *twitch* .. did he just.... DAMN THIS TANK! NOW I HAVE TO WAIT A WHOLE MINUTE!"

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Originally Posted by Zamii

if you ask me its more devastating on ninja when that happens, usually something along the lines of:
"ok i got suiton up, now to tric... *twitch* .. did he just.... DAMN THIS TANK! NOW I HAVE TO WAIT A WHOLE MINUTE!"

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At least yours is every minute. This is a story of every monk's life.

Even worse is when they randomly dash a mob across the field to reposition it and since melee hit box on moving mobs means you have to be inside the mob to hit it while it's moving, those are the times you start having murderous thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

At least yours is every minute. This is a story of every monk's life.

Even worse is when they randomly dash a mob across the field to reposition it and since melee hit box on moving mobs means you have to be inside the mob to hit it while it's moving, those are the times you start having murderous thoughts.

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Shoulder Tackle -> PB -> boss is moved back -> murder MT

It definitely will become muscle memory over time, don't worry. I remember hitting 50 and looking at the full rotation and just thinking "How on earth am I supposed to memorize all of that?" But then I looked at it more closely and broke it down and realized that it really is mostly a priority system-- keep HT and your DoTs up and then weave things in as they come off CD. The more you practice with it, the more natural it will become to you.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Heavy Thrust! - damnit, missed - Heavy Thrust! - god damnit - Heavy Thrust! - STOP SPINNING THE MOB

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This still causes me stress trying to combo a RoT. Took 6 goes on one mob yesterday before the tank decided to sit still..just feel like not doing aoe sometimes..

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Originally Posted by spelley

Yeah, I am very glad that they removed the "no-positional == no combo" limitation.

Heavy Thrust! - damnit, missed - Heavy Thrust! - god damnit - Heavy Thrust! - STOP SPINNING THE MOB

Tanks who couldn't sit still were the bane of all Dragoons everywhere

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My FC has jokingly nicknamed Angra Mainyu in WoD "the angry disco ball" because the tanks there like to spin it around so much.

As mentioned previously, it's easier to break it down into 2 combos: Full Thrust and Chaos Thrust. Everything else is what you weave into it.

If you're in an FC, just practice on the dummy. Open with Heavy Thrust, do the Chaos Thrust Combo, do Phlebotomize, then Full Thrust Combo.

At this point stop and look at where you're at -- Heavy Thrust's effect should be wearing off. If so, refresh Heavy Thrust. Do the Full Thrust combo again, then stop and look at the state of things.

By now Phlebotomize should be wearing off but Heavy Thrust should have around 8-10 seconds to go, so go ahead and do a Phlebotomize to refresh it. Next up would be Chaos Thrust since you did that a while ago, so go ahead and Chaos Thrust.

Stop again, and you'll notice Heavy Thrust is wearing off. Refresh, and then you'll see everything is up and running, so default back to Full Thrust.

You can weave off global cooldown to taste, but I recommend trying this approach first. It's one thing to try to memorize button inputs and skill chains, but it's another to understand WHY you're doing it. That's what helped me.

When I started I had issues, but then I started looking at things and started noticing that things would wear off or be close to wearing off around the time the skill chain wanted me to press the buttons. Once I understood the why, then my brain processed the rest.

Don't be afraid of messing up, either. The worst thing you can do is mess up, pause, get frustrated, and try to remember where you were at in the chain. Don't put yourself on tilt -- Just start wherever you feel comfortable, and the rest will come naturally on its own.

Side note: Don't worry if you don't get a side hit on a mob due to tank spinning. Of course you'll always want to try to get the side hit, but it's not the end of the world if you miss since you'll still get the buff.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Before every 3 button combo, do a 1 button move.

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It's funny how the human mind works. This little statement gave me a whole new perspective on the DRG rotation, so much so that I'm going to start using DRG as my melee job. I LOVE Ninja, but the lag issues slow me down to the point where even with good gear AND the proper rotation, I still do what is considered to be subpar DPS. At least with DRG, there's no worry about trying to cram 3-step mudras in between GCDs. It's just raw, in your face damage, with some jumps for flare :-)

*Flair

But yes, its a good way of thinking about it.

The 1-2-3 combo is a good breather, and during that time you can filler in your jumps and plan your next one button ability, getting ready for the positional (if applicable) and watching timers.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

*Flair

But yes, its a good way of thinking about it.
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Damnit! My inner grammar nazi must have been on a coffee break.

Another little tip wud be to organize ur hotbars/xbars in a methodical manner, for example i play with ps4 controller and bind heavy thrust to circle because its on the right and i tend to flank an enemy on the right hand side for the extra potency, i bind chaos thrust and full thrust to triangle (l2/r2 respectively) because triangle is the top button and these abilities are 'the top of the combo', jump closers to up coz im jumping forward and elusive jump to down coz im jumping backwards. These r jus examples but Its things like that which really helps with muscle memory imo

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Originally Posted by jack891

Another little tip wud be to organize ur hotbars/xbars in a methodical manner

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I'm on PS4 also, and I definitely agree. Once I organized the crossbar buttons in a sensible/intuitive way, the DRG rotation for me went from overly complicated to super fluid.

Dragoon is great. All the melee are pretty well balanced around eachother.

You will never be turned away from a raid group if you are a legitimately good Dragoon.


If you like it: stick with it.

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Originally Posted by DSaint

http://i.imgur.com/hJFTfLf.png

This image pretty much simplify drg rotation, putting it like a priority system. Hope it helps.
Just remember to do yours oGCD between GCD and use buffs.

Credits for user Ayvar ('Dragoon: A rotation reborn' thread)

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Why are people still posting on this? lol This image says it all!
It's the basics. If a DRG can't follow this, go home. In addition to this, you can throw in jumps when abilities are cooling down. Also B4B, IR, and Life Surge. Feint is pretty useless IMO.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Dragoon, If you like it: stick with it.

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Was that pun intended O_o??
It made me chuckle for some reason :/