Wolves den challenge log impossible to achieve?

I'm trying to burn through PvP to rank to 44 so I can wear the gear for glamour vanity - plus I find PvP entertaining and fun.

So as I'm slowly trudging through the ranks I'm realizing that 1-3 frontlines matches a night is literally going to take many months to get to that rank (especially at the rate that the Twin Adders are losing on Aether). My goal is to get there as fast as possible, with limited time to play. When I say 1-3 frontlines a day, that's about all I'm doing / focusing on when I'm logged in.

So what I've done with leveling and crafting is using the weekly challenge log items to really help buffer the leveling process. Especially since the rewards scale with level, they can really offer a nice boost every week. I hit the Frontlines challenge log items without too much trouble (there's definitely been weeks where I couldn't pull 3 wins - that really sucks!), but for Wolves Den is seems virtually impossible.

I've spent probably around 6+ hours getting in queues for wolves den, and I've only ever played a single wolves den game. I queue for lvl 30, 40, 50 (i80 synched) and check "join party in progress". It always says average wait time is 5 minutes but when I wait I'll get to 45m - 1.5 hours before I leave out of frustration or I wasted all the time I had for the night just sitting in queue and never getting in a game. I really want to utilize that challenge log EXP for wolves, but I can never get in a game. It's always better to just queue for frontlines because they pop within a more palatable 15-40 minutes - and that'll net me more PvP EXP than waiting extra time trying to get in wolves den.

My FC is very casual, and not interested in PvP, and not numerous enough to form 2 parties to trade wins back in forth which seems to be a common practice as I research around. Heck, my entire server (Mateus) seems disinterested in PvP in general. Using party finder and /shouts I can not get anyone interested in even making a premade to just queue as 4.

So what's a good solution for this? I can queue for wolves den 1.5 hours every single night of the week and play 1 wolves den match if I'm lucky. There's a real problem there. Why is Wolves Den so barren (or otherwise non-solo-queue-friendly?)

Usually everyone that is queuing will be of varying ranks and will result in longish queues. (as time goes on, the range of ranks that can PvP together is increased)

For challenge log you are pretty much required to PF it or do it within a PvP focused LS. Doing it through DF is NOT advised.

As for finding other people interested in PVP from your server- I'd suggest searching the Lodestone rankings for Frontlines to see who's playing, and checking the scoreboard at the end of your matches. If there isn't a LS that you're aware of, go ahead and start one. Just finding enough people to get into a WD match is going to be hard for the reasons above, so if it were me I'd invest the time that you'd spent trying to get into WD matches to meet the requirements for the Challenge Log, in doing additional FL matches instead. Personally, I don't really enjoy Slaughter mode, but if I were trying to rank up that's where I'd go.

I have 2 blunt pieces of advice to give you upfront that you might not want to hear.
(1) Cheat with Win Trades in Wolves' Den
(2) Drop Adders and switch to another GC

Wolves' Den is completely dead. Cheating with Win Trades is your only hope. I was like you for a little while waiting in long queues. But as time went on, the quality of my fights decreased, the queue length increased, and my patience went down the toilet. Like most people I just gave up trying. It's sad because I was pretty active in Wolves' Den during that period before Frontlines came out, and I met some cool people and there were so many people in my server decked out in those shiny i90 pieces with overmelded materia that I wished I could be like. No one takes it seriously anymore though. Nowadays Wolves' Den is only used for Win Trade cheating and pre-organized events (not random pick up game queues). It doesn't even matter anymore because Frontlines gives way more PVP exp. That's another reason why Wolves' Den died, because the rewards just aren't worth it anymore, especially because of the time wasted in queue. The only reason to even bother with this is because of the Challenge Log.

Forget about playing with your FC, and don't worry about searching for a new one over this either, most FCs are like that anyway with a few people interested in PVP. What you do need to find though is a PVP LS. Sadly Wolves' Den LS'es are virtually non existent either, depending on your server. But you can still find people to play Frontlines with. If you can get 8 Active people in that LS you can start organizing your own Win Trades or even defer to Party Finder to fill in the gaps.

If you're having trouble with Frontlines, I'll tell you straight up right now to quit Adders. Although I'm on a different server, I'm on the same data center as you (Aether) and I'll tell you right now that the Adders scene is completely dead. I'll tell you that I'm not sorry for them at all though, because I remember when Frontlines first came out Adders were winning quite a bit. Now they are on the short end of the stick and Storms are winning all the time. It seems like a ton of people jumped ship from both Adders AND Flames into Storms. Of course the main reason is "front running" / "jump on the bandwagon" for free wins. But I'm sure another genuine reason is because the GC Gear that you can get with Hunt seals just look way nicer in Storms. That may sound strange if you're not into glamour, but objectively speaking most people will tell you that the Storms GC gear looks the nicest and is actually a contributing factor.

I'd hate to tell you to jump on the bandwagon also, but if you want to rank up your PVP this is sadly the fastest way to do it. It's really really sad because if everyone takes this advice, everyone will queue as Storms and the queue will die with no one willing to play for the other teams. If you do decide to do it, don't be discouraged about the GC rank-up grind. It's far less time than all the time you actually wasted in queue for other things like Wolves' Den.

I'm also really sad to tell you there are no real good solutions in sight. This forum is largely ignored even though I've seen some good suggestions here once in a while. It's also quite discouraging to have read this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-not-happening

So there's not much you can do at the moment. The PVP scene in this game is not good right now. And it's quite sad that the expansion probably won't make it any better.

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

Wolves' Den is completely dead.

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Aether has 2 events every week where you can easily get 50-100 matches in, Midgarsormr also has pvp groups running pretty much daily

It would probably be hard to get a queue if he's not already close to 45.

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

It would probably be hard to get a queue if he's not already close to 45.

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Midgardsormr's daily matches are setup to get as near to instaqueues as possible regardless of ranks, its a pretty good system for getting matches, less so for getting hard matches though

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Aether has 2 events every week where you can easily get 50-100 matches in, Midgarsormr also has pvp groups running pretty much daily

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Do you know the event details or how to find the information? Maybe my google-foo is off or I'm just dumb but I can't seem to find anything.

Edit: Don't know why I could find this thread the first search: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lo-queue-event

Looks like they do it every Friday night at 8pm. I'll try that this week.

So I actually found a PvP linkshell and we got 8 players to try to win trade in Wolves Den. We really didn't want to go that route, but it was just a last ditch attempt to get Wolves Den games in for the challenge log. We did all the tricks by evening out the PvP ranks (within 5 points total on both teams), picked an obsure language etc. etc. and after waiting for 15 minutes we just gave up and went back to front lines. So maybe they fixed that but at this point it feels like there's nothing I can do to get the wolves den challenge log completed. Which is a real shame because without those weekly challenge logs it will take me a lot longer to get rank up.

But coming to such a conclusion should tell SE something - PvP has to change because we can't play the game the way it was meant to so getting PvP exp takes longer than what was intended. They need to fix this.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

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Did you split your parties based on PVP rank? Won't work if you don't

You have to average everyone's PVP rank level. If the average rank of the two parties is not similar, you won't be matched together.

Grab some paper and pen and math out everyone's rank, split into 2 parties so that your average is close, the queues will be instant.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Did you split your parties based on PVP rank? Won't work if you don't

You have to average everyone's PVP rank level. If the average rank of the two parties is not similar, you won't be matched together.

Grab some paper and pen and math out everyone's rank, split into 2 parties so that your average is close, the queues will be instant.

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We did that, our cumulative PvP ranks were 55 and 59 for each party (was closest it could be). After 15 minutes of the queue not popping we gave up.

Within 4 ranks should be instant. It is possible one of you had been queuing for synced while the other was in unsynced. (You need to make sure everyone unlocks synced by talking to the guy at the Pier)

Just gotta make sure everyone is on the same page. It's not necessarily the average that needs to be the same or w/e but just the cumulative total.

Just an FYI,
The queues suck because of people wintrading

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Originally Posted by Logo

Just an FYI,
The queues suck because of people wintrading

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Pretty much this, if you're going to wintrade, dont bother pvping at all

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Originally Posted by Logo

Just an FYI,
The queues suck because of people wintrading

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On Primal at least, the queues are dead regardless of win trades or not. People try but they never get into a match when queuing normally without an event going on or two premade 4 mans running.

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Originally Posted by zeopower6

Within 4 ranks should be instant. It is possible one of you had been queuing for synced while the other was in unsynced. (You need to make sure everyone unlocks synced by talking to the guy at the Pier)

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Yes, the cumulative total was 55 against 59. We were very organized and methodical - we choose the same language, and we made double sure we were queuing for the same queue (Wolve's Den Light Party non-synced). When that didn't work we just queued for all WD's available, and still no pops.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Just an FYI,
The queues suck because of people wintrading

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It's not like we wanted to PvP that way. If we could queue as a 4 man group and have some competitive fun while we fill in the challenge log, that would be awesome. But if we're waiting 30+ minutes for a game, and our goal is to get PvP exp, our only choice is frontlines. We only want the challenge log experience - we're not trying to game the system by win trading in wolve's den for 20 hours a day to get rank 45 in a week. Either win trading has been fixed or it's ridiculously hard to set it up right. Same language, same queue, equalized PvP experience across both teams, no pops soooo I don't know how people are doing it anyway. My only choice at this point is hope that "Wolve's Den Fridays" on Aether can deliver and that I'm available Friday night.

I just don't want it to take 6 months to get to rank 45, but at 20 games a week with about an equal 33% rate on first, second, or third place in frontlines that's how long it's going to take me - from rank 28. The challenege log rewards scale with PvP rank so it's a massive experience boost that I'm missing every week.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

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I'm not saying you are lying, but with 4 cumulative rank difference you will be getting insta pops, unless one of the people in the group is doing it wrong, the same system is used on midgarsormr on a daily basis without fail

Also sidenote: if you can get 8 people to do that, why win trade? why not have actual matchs instead of the cowards way?

Because its faster. Matches would turn a 10 minute process into a halfhour or longer.

As mentioned above, if the queue doesn't pop in under 60~ seconds, withdraw and move some players around and try again. Both parties queue just French languange

Cumulative alone isn't all there is to consider, maybe median and range had something to do with it

I've had an attempt before where we were trying to fit a rank 8 and 12 players in and it just wouldn't work, they were too low compared to the others.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Because its faster. Matches would turn a 10 minute process into a halfhour or longer.

As mentioned above, if the queue doesn't pop in under 60~ seconds, withdraw and move some players around and try again. Both parties queue just French languange

Cumulative alone isn't all there is to consider, maybe median and range had something to do with it

I've had an attempt before where we were trying to fit a rank 8 and 12 players in and it just wouldn't work, they were too low compared to the others.

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Maybe that was it - we had two players that had never done any PvP whatsoever, our level spread was Team A: 28, 14, 8, 5 and Team B: 34, 23, 1, 1. Maybe those level 1's threw it off. I guarantee we had everything else correct. Anyways, I'll see if I can get the challenge log accomplished through the Aether organized event. If I can't maybe I'll give it another stab.

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Also sidenote: if you can get 8 people to do that, why win trade? why not have actual matchs instead of the cowards way?

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As noted above, one team had two players that had never PvP'd before. They would not have been fair matches, but it would have been a good opportunity to teach them. Too bad the we weren't getting matched up.

I usually count those who have never PvPed before as 0 when I do the totals. Since iirc that is where they should be when they are that fresh.

Anyway, something had to have been going on for there to be no instant queue. D: Hopefully you can resolve it~

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Also sidenote: if you can get 8 people to do that, why win trade? why not have actual matchs instead of the cowards way?

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Maximizing reward while minimizing effort.

Does anyone know or suspect any win traders?

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Pretty much this, if you're going to wintrade, dont bother pvping at all

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If only win traders would comply with such a simple request.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Maximizing reward while minimizing effort.

Does anyone know or suspect any win traders?

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Uh, most people do that because it's quick and there may not be enough time to fulfill the challenge log with normal matches. I mean, if matches were easier to come by, I'm sure people would avoid it, but for the most part, people leveling do win trading and I don't really think that's an issue at all given the state of Wolves' Den currently.

Maybe one of your teams queued for the i80 synced and the other queued for the non-synced? Or someone was just mistaken in their PvP level or something.

Also win trading is a non-issue. It's no fun when you are PvPing without all the abilities, or facing against someone without all their abilities. PvP should be dictated by player skill, not who has the most abilities levelled. The playing field should be even.

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Originally Posted by zeopower6

Uh, most people do that because it's quick and there may not be enough time to fulfill the challenge log with normal matches. I mean, if matches were easier to come by, I'm sure people would avoid it, but for the most part, people leveling do win trading and I don't really think that's an issue at all given the state of Wolves' Den currently.

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I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with what I said or not? Yes, I know it's quicker and easier to complete the challenge log by win trading instead of doing normal matches, hence minimizing effort(time spent being effort).

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with what I said or not? Yes, I know it's quicker and easier to complete the challenge log by win trading instead of doing normal matches, hence minimizing effort(time spent being effort).

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I'm not sure you quite understand my dilemma. It's not a matter of minimizing effort for maximum reward. If I lose, I lose and that happens all the time in competitive and fair play. It's a matter of achieving that reward at all. I need 10 matches a week to get the challenge log. I have about 1-2 hours a night to play. IF I ignored frontlines, and queued for every single wolves den queue, and waited for 1+ hours every night, I may get one game in a night. That is not enough to get the challenge log completed. If playing 14 hours a week isn't enough to get 10 games in, there's a serious problem, because it's designed to be something easily achievable especially if you make it your focus for the week. I cannot play the game as it was designed because the queues are too long. The win trading is a last ditch effort to close the gap of SE's unintended barren queues to achieve the challenge log in a way that more closely resembles what I should be able to do given that the game was able to be played as it was designed.

Minimizing effort for maximum reward? No, I'm maximizing my effort for maximum reward - scratching and clawing for any way to get that done in the time that I have. I wasted 1.5 hours trying to set up a "win trade" two nights ago and we couldn't get it done, and people had to bail etc. etc. and I've wasted many more hours straight up queueing for Wolve's Den in hopes of completing the challenge log and having to withdraw from the queue after waiting 45m to 1 hour, because at that point I've wasted half my available time for the night doing nothing and I could have played 1 or 2 frontlines. That's what freakin kills me - trying to play SE's game and sitting around doing nothing while sitting in queue for a dead system. That's why I have absolutely no qualms about trying to "win trade" at this point, even though my attempts have been unsuccessful - I've wasted enough of my time and it's really frustrating when the whole point of playing a game is to have fun.

Hey Geryth! I think I saw you in a secure we did a couple days ago?? Good stuff!

Anyway, I think the point Faelyn and Ceve are trying to make here is that if you've got a group of 8 together to do some matches for the challenge log (and can figure out the technical issues to get it to pop), you might as well do some real matches with them instead of just run in and sit there win-trading. You need 3 wins and 10 matches for the challenge log. Your group definitely isn't going to be balanced with two rank 1's, but the more real matches they get the better they'll be for next time.

You could tell your group of 8 that you're going to do 7 "real" matches. No holding back with the goal to win. With the 1 min before the gate opens you can talk strategy with the new guys and I bet after 7 matches those guys will have a better sense of how den works and what they need to do.

Now after 7 games, you reassess. If the teams are fairly even, you can just keep going for the next 3 matches to hit the 10 games for the challenge log and you're good, maybe you can even get some more games going after that now that you have instant-queues and people are getting into it.

If after 7 games the score is 7-0, then nobody is going to blame you for giving the next 3 wins to the less experienced group so they can get their challenge log. You could say for those last 3 games that both teams attack the healer, but once the healer is down, the team that needs the wins for the challenge log gets the win. This keeps it interesting while also giving you guys the much needed challenge log clear.

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Originally Posted by Blubbers

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Hey Blubbers, yeah we totally were in a Secure together the other day. I wish my teammates were always so skillful and cooperative :P

I agree with everything you wrote. I think I'm going to first try out the Friday night Wolve's Den event and try to advertise it on Mateus and see how it goes - if that can satisfy the challenge log then I see no need to try to set up a "win trade" again. I think I'd be hard-pressed to convince the LS to try setting up two parties to queue again because of how much time we wasted setting up and yet being unsuccessful. But if we can get that working then I definitely think it should be used as a teaching tool instead of a mindless win-trade.

Generally, we try to do real matches and then throw the last few if they are needed for log nowadays. A few months ago (even around the time R45 was introduced actually), it was a once-a-week thing just get people in and out ASAP because people don't have time for "real" matches when they are sometimes a few minutes long each and 10 matches could take an hour or more if something comes up for participants who have to leave they need to be replaced and then ALSO have their 3 wins/10 matches done. Unfortunately, interest in Wolves' Den on a level beyond "challenge log" fodder for EXP is really low, so something else will almost always win out against Wolves' Den if it comes up.

As far as using it for EXP, the quicker to rank 45, IMO, the better. One issue I would have with win trades is if you tried to do it all the way to 5000 for the Alpha Wolf. >___> Then I'd be like "Why are you even doing this?" >_>

I decided to finally get back into PvP since returning two months ago. I queued up for all level 50 options and ended up waiting about 30-45 mins per match. Most of my experience in PvP is from Wolves Den since Frontlines weren't in yet.

I only got into 2 Slaughter matches and 1 Secure match. I'm on the Aether datacenter as well; I'll be trying to find a PvP LS sometime it only sucks because I did like Wolves Den and wanted some of those titles but win trading was not how I was looking to get it done.

I doubt this part of the game will get much support frightening it might get less support than the RMT situation. *le sigh*

But if you are on Aether know there's one more added to the queue (myself of course) representing Immortal Flames as well..