So...Why was Shield Oath level 40?

I never understood the mind behind such a stupid mistake.

What do Paladin get at 30?

Sword Oath Increases the potency of auto-attacks by 50. I mean, what the hell? I get it that paladin is a "experienced" tank before level 40, and you have to know how to switch between targets to keep aggro, but this is ridiculous.

Who the hell would want to run as a PLD, when WAR is almost the same (minus dmg mitigation and receive more DMG), but gets defiance 10 LEVEL LOWER than PLD's Shield Oath.

In term of dungeon/fate run/grind, this is a lot of time, where, if under geared or not having the best HQ wpn (if you have the money for the over priced garbage on the MB) for your level or dungeon gear.

I have no problem tanking, and i always wanted to level up a PLD, but this always turns me off so bad when i think about having Shield Oath at 40 and having to deal with dungeons like Haukke, cutter's cry, Brayflox, which all have A LOT of enemies in them, and when you have a BLM/SMN, it makes it even worst for that class to attain it's maximum DPS, because OOPS, the little Mr/Ms Paladin can't keep aggro that good.

Setting up which targets to attack in order helps a bit since then its mostly just healer aggro you have to worry about. It isn't really that difficult, rather more of the same of what you have been doing since before you got Sword Oath, only now you have a little more power to help keep enemies on you. Yes it is somewhat strange even before you throw in WAR getting their tank stance 10 levels earlier, but it isn't quite that big a deal overall. There shouldn't be any mass pulls being done before 50 anyways leaving mostly wandering mobs as the big problem when it comes to "alot of enemies".

Note this is coming from someone who started out as a GLD/PLD and was also the first job to hit 50.

Pld was the first tank I levelled. With the exception of toto rak, war was easier till 40 but then it flipped. Then war was the red headed step child, pld is suddenly easier to keep up and with more, stronger cooldowns.

Either way, just do it. At 50 it won't matter who got the tank stance first, you'll still have it in any content after that.

So who would want to level it? People who wanna play pld.

Should get both sword and shield oath at the same time imho.

Sword Oath used to have double enmity on the extra attack, so it wasn't much worse than shield oath (which was only 50% bonus) against a single target for hate. I agree with T2teddy though - Sword/Shield Oath should be acquired at the same level. They really should be on the same button, too.

It is a pretty steep learning curve for PLD in low level dungeon, but it teaches you different ways of dealing with the problem. From the problem I've gotten better at PLD tanking ^^.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

They really should be on the same button, too.

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They can be. Do what I do and macro them together. :D

Pressing the button the first time will activate one of the buffs, and the other will be caught by GCD. Pressing the button a second time will cancel the first buff and cast the second. Thus, this macro will essentially add both buffs to one button and allow you to cycle through them. Just add the one you use more often as the first one in the macro and you're golden.

I do the same thing for my NIN poisons.

I'm OK with them being different skills, even though there's not really any possible scenario where you wouldn't want either of them up, it's one of those things that makes PLD and WAR subtly different to each other.

What I'm not OK with is PLD getting their stances the wrong way round - WAR gets their tank stance at 30, Sword and Shield Oath really need to be switched round to make for an equal levelling experience between the two. You could argue that not having ShO for another 10 levels forces you to get good at managing aggro when you don't have all the tools to do so, but in practice it's just annoying and makes you a sub-par tank for a big chunk of the game.

Also, for the love of god please take them off the GCD and stop them breaking combos.

I believe that SE figured by math with equally geared tanks and dps that the 1.5x/1.6x Enmity stance was not needed until level 40. The problems that Paladins have in Hakku, Brayflox, Qarn and Cutter's Cry happen usually from level and gear disparity.

The only reason Warrior gets its 1.5x Enimity stance at 30 because the jobs mechanics are all built off of the Wrath buff granted by the stance.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

Sword Oath Increases the potency of auto-attacks by 50. I mean, what the hell?

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It doesn't increase auto attack potency by 50, it makes an additional 50 potency attack every time the Paladin auto attacks. Subtle difference that makes the Dreadwyrm Blade (auto attack delay 2.08 auto attack damage 40.21) slightly better than the Excalibur Zeta (Delay 2.32 Damage 44.85) in Sword Oath even though they have the same average auto attack damage (19.33).

See the thing is about having a blm or and SMN in your party is that most PLDs will still use single combo where as they need to use flash and riot blade combo for AoE holding.

If it's really that big of an issue when you get shield oath, use FATEs to get to 40, or even 50. Then watch a video on how to actually play paladin and practice in weaker dungeons [ak normal / wp normal] / first coil of bahamut. There isn't anything you're missing out on by waiting to learn the job at 50. I'm sure someone will say something like "But you learn the basics of tanking and blah blah blah", but you really don't learn anything about tanking until you're tanking level 50 content.

I do agree however that ShO should've come before SwO, but in the end it doesn't make a difference.

Because PLD had access to it's main mitigation tool earlier than warrior. (rampart)

The question is, why aren't these PLD using Flash?

Flash 2 times at initial pull = Confirm agro for at least 2 Halone's combos.
Flash after every other combo (after every 2 Halone's combos) = Confirm agro for the rest of the fight.

Ran out of MP? Replace Halone combo with Riot Blade and you're fine.

Again and again. I have to say those things in Haukke and Brayflox. What makes tanking as a PLD before you have Sword Oath any different than tanking as a PLD after you have it or Shield Oath?

Pro-tip: Nothing.

Just because there are ways around it doesn't mean it was good initial design. I'd also like to see those two swapped out, and Provoke swapped with Convalescence. Any tank class really should get the staple tank abilities before anything else, and at level 10 there really isn't any great need for convalescence. Swapping those two would make life easier for warriors that are cross-equipping it since they have to level gladiator to 15 anyway, and it would give lower paladins a solid way to pull back stray mobs before they go into dungeons.

Some of the design decisions could stand to be revisited.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

The question is, why aren't these PLD using Flash?

Flash 2 times at initial pull = Confirm agro for at least 2 Halone's combos.
Flash after every other combo (after every 2 Halone's combos) = Confirm agro for the rest of the fight.

Ran out of MP? Replace Halone combo with Riot Blade and you're fine.

Again and again. I have to say those things in Haukke and Brayflox. What makes tanking as a PLD before you have Sword Oath any different than tanking as a PLD after you have it or Shield Oath?

Pro-tip: Nothing.

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Because flash is 'crap' because it doesn't do damage and doesn't have as much enmity as overpower. (Even though it's infinitely available and can be spammed more.) PLD is fine, people just don't know how to make use of it's abilities by that point.

Honestly, the only time I ever felt the pinch of having only sword oath and no shield is if I was trying to tank 4+ targets against an AOE BLM and a 'pop everything on pull' BRD at the same time. And frankly, that sucks to deal with as a warrior too. Otherwise, even in sword, 2-3 flashes followed by cycling halone combos is generally enough to handle threat. Tank survival really doesn't start getting questionable until 40+ anyhow, with the sole exception of your first time stepping into Halatali at 20.

They probably should change it around more so for the sake of new paladins and new whm's that don't know that Regen nets hate like a DoT. But any PLD that knows what their doing shouldn't have much trouble at all, if any.

I leveled pld solely in dungeons and had no problem at all between 30 and 40.

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Originally Posted by Lynarii

a 'pop everything on pull' BRD

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This is me. I do this on my lowbie BRD. I don't do it because I want you to suffer. I do it to end encounters quickly and teach you to be on your toes as a tank, as well as test my limits.

That said, I do enjoy the suffering...

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Originally Posted by Menae

This is me. I do this on my lowbie BRD. I don't do it because I want you to suffer. I do it to end encounters quickly and teach you to be on your toes as a tank, as well as test my limits.

That said, I do enjoy the suffering...

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DPS do this because at these levels you start getting more and more pieces of your final combos/rotations. In an AoE situation, Flash/Riot Blade is probably superior to rotating combos. Could also do Flash x2, regular combo on main target, Flash once every ~1-2 combos to keep it up. I know on WAR I can hold aggro with Overpower x2 and rotating the Skull Sunder and Butcher's Block to "non-main" targets sans Defiance... (accidentally) done in Brayflox for a few pulls :P

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Originally Posted by Menae

This is me. I do this on my lowbie BRD. I don't do it because I want you to suffer. I do it to end encounters quickly and teach you to be on your toes as a tank, as well as test my limits.

That said, I do enjoy the suffering...

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Doesn't really keep them on their toes. Their either flashing a few times to get stable hate at the start before starting their combo or their not or you're a bard and their still on Gladiator. If you want to really keep them on their toes, throw DoT's on every mob when there are 3 or more. That actually forces them to use flash or target switch and keep hate on each target with their enmity generating combos.

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Originally Posted by Menae

This is me. I do this on my lowbie BRD. I don't do it because I want you to suffer. I do it to end encounters quickly and teach you to be on your toes as a tank, as well as test my limits.

That said, I do enjoy the suffering...

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Doesn't really make them to be on their toes. For BRDs like you, all I have to do is focus attack on your target and problem solved. You want to make a Tank to be on their toes? Pop everything as a BLM and start AOEing everything. For every Fire 2 and Flare, there's 2 or more mobs than the tank is hitting and that'll definitely a way to get yourself killed.

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Originally Posted by Vandril

They can be. Do what I do and macro them together. :D

Pressing the button the first time will activate one of the buffs, and the other will be caught by GCD. Pressing the button a second time will cancel the first buff and cast the second. Thus, this macro will essentially add both buffs to one button and allow you to cycle through them. Just add the one you use more often as the first one in the macro and you're golden.

I do the same thing for my NIN poisons.

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I'm going to have to steal this. I never thought of doing this. I main WAR, and with HS coming up, this will be useful for our upcoming DPS stance. Can you post your macro?

I don't know why Shield Oath was level 40, but maybe it's because if you got Shield Oath earlier, PLD would have been so hilariously faceroll at its job that no PLD would have finished a dungeon pre-50 before falling asleep.

Not that it was too hard to tank without it, Flash is a great skill and PLD has a 6 second stun on GCD, which is pretty significant crowd control on its own.

No better mitigation than making an enemy do 0 damage for a duration. Honestly PLD was way more fun before I got Shield Oath, simply because it demanded a bit more attention.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

I don't know why Shield Oath was level 40, but maybe it's because if you got Shield Oath earlier, PLD would have been so hilariously faceroll at its job that no PLD would have finished a dungeon pre-50 before falling asleep.

Not that it was too hard to tank without it, Flash is a great skill and PLD has a 6 second stun on GCD, which is pretty significant crowd control on its own.

No better mitigation than making an enemy do 0 damage for a duration. Honestly PLD was way more fun before I got Shield Oath, simply because it demanded a bit more attention.

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Or they could be expert paladins and learn to chain pull dungeons early on to make dungeons have faster run times assuming there is a skilled healer and DPS to back them up.

I think it's because content starting with Cutter's Cry make it so you can properly tank the many adds there. Imaging all those mobs coming out the ground and coming at the group with no crowd control.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I think it's because content starting with Cutter's Cry make it so you can properly tank the many adds there. Imaging all those mobs coming out the ground and coming at the group with no crowd control.

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Yeah...still don't get shield oath until the last level of cutter's cry. But I agree with the fact that they should pull multiple groups in the following dungeon's to have a large group. Also helps with the accident pulls in DD and AV. At least the damage reduction aspect. But I woudn't do it without first checking with your local healer. ;3

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

See the thing is about having a blm or and SMN in your party is that most PLDs will still use single combo where as they need to use flash and riot blade combo for AoE holding.

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lol... I use this combo often. I had someone call me a noob because I wasn't using RoH combo

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

I'm going to have to steal this. I never thought of doing this. I main WAR, and with HS coming up, this will be useful for our upcoming DPS stance. Can you post your macro?

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Sure thing. This is my Ninja's poison one, but it's the same deal.

Code:

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/micon "Kiss of the Wasp"
/ac "Kiss of the Wasp"
/ac "Kiss of the Viper"

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There's nothing special to my macro at all. It just takes advantage of the way toggleable buffs work with the GCD.

The macro will try to consecutively cast Kiss of the Wasp and then Kiss of the Viper immediately. If Kiss of the Wasp is not already enabled, it will cast and enable it, while the attempt to use Kiss of the Viper will be met with a "Not ready yet" error message. If Kiss of the Wasp is already enabled, it will cast it to disable the buff (which does not trigger the recast) and then immediately cast Kiss of the Viper to enable it.

The only issue I have with this macro is the error message and corresponding error sound it throws when KotW is not already enabled. As far as I'm aware, there is no way to disable those for individual macros.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The problems that Paladins have in Hakku, Brayflox, Qarn and Cutter's Cry happen usually from level and gear disparity.

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omg this. idk how many tanks we have kicked lately who come into dd and av, lvl 44 and 47 dungeons respectively in just enough gear to get the minimum ilvl requirement. I have seen some in lvl 9 accessories. They get a handful of pieces that gets their ilvl high enough and the rest sit at a lvl that's not even suitable for Sastasha then take ages marking each target, only pull 2-3 at a time and stop pulling unless you agree to not aoe or use bane. And honestly this happens in dungeons of all lvls, then they QQ about dps who don't respect them. It's shameful.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

omg this. idk how many tanks we have kicked lately who come into dd and av, lvl 44 and 47 dungeons respectively in just enough gear to get the minimum ilvl requirement. I have seen some in lvl 9 accessories. They get a handful of pieces that gets their ilvl high enough and the rest sit at a lvl that's not even suitable for Sastasha then take ages marking each target, only pull 2-3 at a time and stop pulling unless you agree to not aoe or use bane. And honestly this happens in dungeons of all lvls, then they QQ about dps who don't respect them. It's shameful.

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You are complaining about pre-50's....in pre-50 gear...showing up in pre-50's exp dungeons....*sigh*

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

omg this. idk how many tanks we have kicked lately who come into dd and av, lvl 44 and 47 dungeons respectively in just enough gear to get the minimum ilvl requirement. I have seen some in lvl 9 accessories. They get a handful of pieces that gets their ilvl high enough and the rest sit at a lvl that's not even suitable for Sastasha then take ages marking each target, only pull 2-3 at a time and stop pulling unless you agree to not aoe or use bane. And honestly this happens in dungeons of all lvls, then they QQ about dps who don't respect them. It's shameful.

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This. Having gear that's good enough is crucial for efficient tanking methods to work, and demanding that DPS classes not deal damage in the best way possible is just wrong.

Some tanks seem like they like to be babysat and blame everything but their own gear and abilities when things go wrong. It's ridiculous that we're all so dependent on them when queueing and then potentially end up with that. I find it extremely rare for healers to display the same attitude, though DPS classes are very quick to anger if one suggests that their damage output is lacking.

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

You are complaining about pre-50's....in pre-50 gear...showing up in pre-50's exp dungeons....*sigh*

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No he's complaining about post-40s in pre-15 gear showing up in post-40 dungeons.

And rofl at tanks that can't deal with bane, though fire2 spam on a 3 pull doesn't seem like the best option bane is the only way for smns to not suck on the dps during trash. I haven't seen a tank complain about this since pre 2.1 though.

I kind of feel like the progression is right. It's better to learn how to use most/all of your other tools first, then your aggro crutch so that you're not over reliant on it. Also, during the leveling process a lot of people (especially new players) are doing the MSQ which involves a fair amount of soloing. Best to give them the more offensive stance first so they can solo a bit easier/do a bit more damage, then give them the Shield Oath for when they start getting into harder dungeon progression.

Outside of that? Even if it doesn't work out that way, another reasoning might be to try to get DPS to learn to use their own de-aggro tools and control their hate output. Yes, one school of thought is that DPS needs to be able to go balls to the wall to get content done faster, but another school of thought is that it's an irresponsible DPS that can't control themselves and rips aggro away thoughtlessly without using the tools they're given to mitigate it.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

No he's complaining about post-40s in pre-15 gear showing up in post-40 dungeons.

And rofl at tanks that can't deal with bane, though fire2 spam on a 3 pull doesn't seem like the best option bane is the only way for smns to not suck on the dps during trash. I haven't seen a tank complain about this since pre 2.1 though.

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While I like the majority of your post, fire 2 is just as easy to handle. Flash. flash. flash. lash. flash. Over p over p over p over p over p. Game won.