Cleric stance = Commendation

Being the sucker for punishment I am, I have ground out 1000 light for nexus in Sastasha. NM. Been an interesting multitude of runs! But as soon as I see the healer in Cleric stance, I know it's going to be a good day :) Commendation guaranteed.

i am a healer. most of the time when i am using cleric and make damage (nobody dies) i don't get a commendation. but if i just stay there doing nothing (nobody dies) i often get not only one - two or more are normal xDD

That's not a very good rule. Just because a healer is in CS doesn't mean they are doing a good job.

Seen plenty of healers go into cleric and forget they're a healer, let tank die, cause wipe... and keep doing it over and over again.

Keep in mind I am referring to Sastasha here. I don't mind a wipe, quite often it has been a new healer testing it out. I like the fact the player is prepared to push themselves and give it a go.

Mind you, if it was happening over and over I may reconsider :)

I despise the Cleric Shuffle so much that even when I play healer I refuse to use it.

My damage as a healer is relatively insignificant and Cleric doesn't effect DoTs so I simply don't use it.

Keeping DoTs up is far more damage from my end with little to no investment involved and I no longer risk not being able to heal the Tank and DPS properly should some one take a Critical Hit to the face.

Just my personal preference mind you, but that's how I stand.

It really depends on the party formation and mentality, a party where members avoid damage as possible can allow the healer to switch to cleric. Yey in the case of a bad damage-eating people the healer will continously heal not only tank but both DPSs.

When I was getting my Lancer to Lv.22 in Halatali, a scholar wanted to hasten the run so she was on cleric, healing on cleric too. The tank (main whitemage) did his best, but due lack of heals he KO'ed several times.. He would have died a lot more if the Black mage didn't heal!!! eventually we lost our tank because the scholar wanted to DPS.

When I tank i allow my healer to do as they see fit, I don't rage over a wipe as long as it doesn't repeat twice. Them I ask them to turn off cleric and/or pay more attention.

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Originally Posted by Carvaka

Being the sucker for punishment I am, I have ground out 1000 light for nexus in Sastasha. NM. Been an interesting multitude of runs! But as soon as I see the healer in Cleric stance, I know it's going to be a good day :) Commendation guaranteed.

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That depends if they are healing you.

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Originally Posted by Kuwaitum

When I was getting my Lancer to Lv.22 in Halatali, a scholar wanted to hasten the run so she was on cleric, healing on cleric too. The tank (main whitemage) did his best, but due lack of heals he KO'ed several times.. He would have died a lot more if the Black mage didn't heal!!! eventually we lost our tank because the scholar wanted to DPS.

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Something in this story rings weirdly to me. Did the tank use any of his mitigation abilities? did the scholar summon his fairy while in cleric stance? if the fairy is summoned from normal stance, or even before the instance, the scholar shouldn't have had to heal through Halatali. I personally have done this run, and the fairy solo healed the entire thing without even requiring protect (my first two scholar cross classes are cleric and aero).

That might also have been a new, and unknowledgeable scholar. I have had multiple scholars first get their classes, look at all their +INT statted armor, and think that cleric stance gives them better heals than regular stance does.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I despise the Cleric Shuffle so much that even when I play healer I refuse to use it.

My damage as a healer is relatively insignificant and Cleric doesn't effect DoTs so I simply don't use it.

Keeping DoTs up is far more damage from my end with little to no investment involved and I no longer risk not being able to heal the Tank and DPS properly should some one take a Critical Hit to the face.

Just my personal preference mind you, but that's how I stand.

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CS does effect DoT's. All SCH say hi.
If done right, healer damage is not insignificant.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

Something in this story rings weirdly to me..

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I am a Lv.50 Scholar and I did Halatali, I know the fairy is capable to heal.. but for some reason the heals were weak. I saw the fairy Embrace heals, I assume the scholar was manually giving commands to heal. more tahn 70% of heals were done by the BLM. She started healing better when another tank joined the duty.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

did the scholar summon his fairy while in cleric stance?

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Summoning in cleric stance doesn't affect the fairy. But yes, the story seems off to me too. I've done the entire dungeon with my fairy solo healing while I stay in clerics. Scholar could have stood out of range for the fairy to heal, or their gear was broken.

The range came into my mind as well. The healing range from where the fairy auto embraces is smaller than the spell's range. I usually, even if in cleric stance happily Ruining, try to pay attention if my fairy keeps healing or not.

Also, being in CS on early levels doesn't tell the whole picture. I was leveling arcanist on the early stages in Tam Tara, and we got newish conjurer healer. I try not to step on the healer's healing preference but when the tank was reaching 10% health with not a single heal I did cast some physics. After that fight, talking with the conjurer she was "but I like doing damage more" *sigh* it's fine to toss some damage in but your job is kinda to be a healer.. then again, as it later came out, the tank was trying to be dps too. So in the end, throughout the dungeon, I was healer, my emerald pet was MT while the ninja of the group was OT.. as the healer and tank just couldn't grasp their roles regardless of me and the ninja trying to coach them.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

My damage as a healer is relatively insignificant and Cleric doesn't effect DoTs so I simply don't use it.

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Whoa there partner, I don't care if you don't want to DPS but don't be spreading lies here.

CS definitely absolutely affects DoTs.

WhM at high level is definitely strong. Holy obviously, crits at 1100/1400 + stuns any enemy in range. But that's not all. Even a combo Aero/Earth2/Presence of Mind will strike an average of 800/950 and crits above 1200.

Having such a WhM in a party is a huge asset for the whole team.
Saying otherwise is plain misinformation.

I will usually comm someone based first off how well they performed their roll (healing, tanking or DPS'ing), and then second on how much else they did in addition to their role, without sacrificing anything with their role itself. So for example, I'll comm a DPS before I comm a healer that is DPS'ing and not keeping our health above a safe threshold (A safe threshold being any moment I don't have a chance of dying in the next 2 seconds).

I'll also comm for players being pleasantly social, open to learning, teaching others in a constructive manner, just anything that makes the run a more fun and enjoyable experience. :)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I despise the Cleric Shuffle so much that even when I play healer I refuse to use it.

My damage as a healer is relatively insignificant and Cleric doesn't effect DoTs so I simply don't use it.

Keeping DoTs up is far more damage from my end with little to no investment involved and I no longer risk not being able to heal the Tank and DPS properly should some one take a Critical Hit to the face.

Just my personal preference mind you, but that's how I stand.

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Every part of this post is factually incorrect.

i don't use cleric (as a whm) in low lvl dungeons because no regen until lvl 35 and most tanks drop really fast in low lvl. the dmg on low lvl is okay without cleric.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I despise the Cleric Shuffle so much that even when I play healer I refuse to use it.

My damage as a healer is relatively insignificant and Cleric doesn't effect DoTs so I simply don't use it.

Keeping DoTs up is far more damage from my end with little to no investment involved and I no longer risk not being able to heal the Tank and DPS properly should some one take a Critical Hit to the face.

Just my personal preference mind you, but that's how I stand.

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Your personal preference is wrong. Your damage can be significant if you're actively keeping your DoTs up and periodically nuking. Cleric DOES effect DoTs and have no idea why you'd think it doesn't. Additionally, considering everything in this game is choreographed and both healers have a way to do moderate healing while in Cleric Stance (HoT and/or fairy) and the easability of pressing "Cleric on, Cleric off", there is nearly a reason to not be DPSing as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i don't use cleric (as a whm) in low lvl dungeons because no regen until lvl 35 and most tanks drop really fast in low lvl. the dmg on low lvl is okay without cleric.

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The problem lies in your high level gear when you do a LL-Roulette.
What you say applies to players in leveling gear with int and mnd on it.
Your DPS in highlevel gear (only mnd) without CS is infact laughable.

Anyone who doesn't cleric is new , lazy or bad.
Move on.

Stance dance is the reason why playing Healers is not the most absolute snorefest in regular dungeons, also it's ridiculous how the DPS from the healer can contribute to a much faster clearance. I understand that sometimes you can't just DPS because the tank pulled a huge pack or the boss is hitting too hard to risk stance swapping, but right after you can hit that sweetspot that allows you to dance in and out of CS, it'll make things way more fun.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Just my personal preference mind you, but that's how I stand.

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Good thing you don't main healer. And stop spreading lies please.

I'm new to healing, do my best to "Get Gewd" and if you don't like my heals than bring some damn potions next time.

My job as a healer is to heal, if I want to DPS I have Summoner, Ninja, and Dragoon to pick from. That's like telling a Tank to use Cure, it's not that he cant it's that it's not going to make much difference.

And actually, I assumed DoTs didn't get the buff since it's not upfront damage, so I was wrong get over it. Geez no wonder Tanks and Healers are the most underplayed jobs, you "Experts" are all a bunch of Elitist Pricks.

I'll start using Cleric to DPS When DPS uses Blood for Blood to Tank and Tanks use Cure to heal.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

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Stating what CS does indeed affect isn't being an elitist prick, its just stating factual information, though atleast one person could have put their thoughts into nicer words.

Yes your job is to heal, and ultimately if everyone is alive and kickin enemy tail it's all good, more so in lower level dungeons where only the bosses could stand to use a little more dps help and they are the ones doing the most outgoing damage. That said as someone who (while not maining) has done quite a bit of healing...it can get damn boring just healing at times. Throwing in some dps makes things more fun and helps out, and learning how to stance dance especially when it comes to using Holy on lots of trash has been fun...still fun since I still got a bit to go to get my timing right for some encounters.

Also B4B is the best tanking tool, helps me keep aggro. WAR has a good cure for themselves...we'll get back to you on PLD cures, but stoneskin works close enough.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Stating what CS does indeed affect isn't being an elitist prick, its just stating factual information, though atleast one person could have put their thoughts into nicer words.

Yes your job is to heal, and ultimately if everyone is alive and kickin enemy tail it's all good, more so in lower level dungeons where only the bosses could stand to use a little more dps help and they are the ones doing the most outgoing damage. That said as someone who (while not maining) has done quite a bit of healing...it can get damn boring just healing at times. Throwing in some dps makes things more fun and helps out, and learning how to stance dance especially when it comes to using Holy on lots of trash has been fun...still fun since I still got a bit to go to get my timing right for some encounters.

Also B4B is the best tanking tool, helps me keep aggro. WAR has a good cure for themselves...we'll get back to you on PLD cures, but stoneskin works close enough.

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Ya see, this is how you make constructive criticism. We learn some how. Any one that thinks I'm a bad healer should have seen me the first time I tried tanking. I was squishier than a dead Flan. But I got better. What matters is learning. Some people just don't get that. Not everyone just "knows" how to do a job on the game and even fewer can do it well without practice and help.

Dualblade, I'd Listen to your advise all day, others however, who are trolls at best and elitists at worse can go fall on their own blades. Remember, no matter how good you are, everyone was a noob once.

Interest. I won't but in but share my experience. I'm a main SCH. I've gotten very comfortable with stance dancing with CS but I noticed a trend that is quite different from the OP. In many dungeon runs, I've noticed that I've usually gotten 0 commendations compared to the ones I was stuck clutch healing large pulls and carrying DPS during boss fights, or in some cases where I got lazy and didn't want to DPS at all. It was actually very frustrating to the point where I'd feel like I did some real work with efficiently juggling healing and support DPS with no deaths, but no recognition but how easy some one would be like "awesome heals" when I stuck to healing and over curing at the slightest bit of HP loss.

Healers shouldn't just stand there when they have a clear and safe opportunity to comfortably aid in DPSing in dungeon runs. Then if that's how they want to play, then let them. Better for them to be full heal than forgetting why they are their when they DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

My job as a healer is to heal

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Honestly this is the motto of the lazy healer..

Let's throw out the roles of the royal trinity and look at what your role really is...to enhance your party. If you are not dpsing and just sitting there watching tv because no healing needs to be done you are not enhancing your party and therefore not fulfilling your role. Any job should be using the abilities at their disposal to enhance the run. I dps on heals, I use my songs on bard, I even use abilities like eye for an eye and resurrection when I'm on smn, and if the healer goes down I heal on blm/smn and even pull out titan to try to save us if the tank goes down, because it enhances the overall party and I learned early on how to play my job. I have seen brand new healers dps, they sometimes fail, but that's how they learn and usually the pts are good with it. Only becoming a problem when it causes too many wipes, which it really never does.

Never state something as a fact, like healer dps is insignificant, if its just an assumption. You know what they say about what happens when you assume...

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Honestly this is the motto of the lazy healer..

Let's throw out the roles of the royal trinity and look at what your role really is...to enhance your party. If you are not dpsing and just sitting there watching tv because no healing needs to be done you are not enhancing your party and therefore not fulfilling your role. Any job should be using the abilities at their disposal to enhance the run. I dps on heals, I use my songs on bard, I even use abilities like eye for an eye and resurrection when I'm on smn, and if the healer goes down I heal on blm/smn and even pull out titan to try to save us if the tank goes down, because it enhances the overall party and I learned early on how to play my job. I have seen brand new healers dps, they sometimes fail, but that's how they learn and usually the pts are good with it. Only becoming a problem when it causes too many wipes, which it really never does.

Never state something as a fact, like healer dps is insignificant, if its just an assumption. You know what they say about what happens when you assume...

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I use the same DoT rotation for SCH as I do SUM (It's the same combo of Arcanist DPS skills so it's not hard to remember) and I throw Stone 1 & 2 every now and then when the trash is well managed. But I still don't use Cleric. I've never seen a team, no matter what job I'm playing, that was doing their jobs right and the Healer was the "Make it or break it" DPS. If the Healer's Holy spell is the deciding factor between Victory and Wiping there is a DPS problem here. If every thing is dying fast but the Tank's HP is STILL dropping like a Lead Golem in the Rohtano then the Tank has issues that need to be fixed desperately.

The Healer is the ONLY position that can reliably heal the group. As both a DPS and a Tank I can remember numerous occasions where the wipe was solely attributed to the Healer running around in cleric because it was "Faster". If we wipe three times because you heal like a lvl 1 Thaumaturge then "Faster" is the exact opposite of what happens.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

stuff said

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We had this discussion over and over on the healer forums.
Of course you don't DPS if you have healing to do, noone here stated to go all over and stop healing at any costs - it's called being aware of the situation.

And just because you encountered some bad healers doesn't mean you're right with "Cleric is a bad thing to use".

Just get over it, it's okay to not main healer and be a little more cautious when you play it - but if you are a self proclaimed learner, don't give tips here that are wrong and get into arguments with ppl that really do have experience.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

We had this discussion over and over on the healer forums.
Of course you don't DPS if you have healing to do, noone here stated to go all over and stop healing at any costs - it's called being aware of the situation.

And just because you encountered some bad healers doesn't mean you're right with "Cleric is a bad thing to use".

Just get over it, it's okay to not main healer and be a little more cautious when you play it - but if you are a self proclaimed learner, don't give tips here that are wrong and get into arguments with ppl that really do have experience.

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Who was giving tips? I stated that I, being a DPS SPECIALIST and a Novice Healer do not use cleric stance because I find it risky. How is that Advise? That sounds like stating an opinion to me. All any of you have managed to change about my opinion is granting me the information that DoTs are, in fact, enhanced by damage potency buffs. That didn't change my stance on Cleric though, I still don't like it and when I tank I don't particularly like seeing healers using it. Seeing Cleric Stance when I'm a PLD makes it that much less likly that I'm going too pull more than two packs at a time lest you start spamming Holy and forget how to friggin heal right until AFTER we wipe. If I'm tanking and see cleric you can almost guarantee the DPS is going to get my com.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Who was giving tips? I stated that I, being a DPS SPECIALIST and a Novice Healer do not use cleric stance because I find it risky. How is that Advise? That sounds like stating an opinion to me. All any of you have managed to change about my opinion is granting me the information that DoTs are, in fact, enhanced by damage potency buffs. That didn't change my stance on Cleric though, I still don't like it and when I tank I don't particularly like seeing healers using it. Seeing Cleric Stance when I'm a PLD makes it that much less likly that I'm going too pull more than two packs at a time lest you start spamming Holy and forget how to friggin heal right until AFTER we wipe. If I'm tanking and see cleric you can almost guarantee the DPS is going to get my com.

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ok we can argue semantics now.
I think if you promote your playstyle on Cleric stance and give reasons why, it can be called advice.

Give your coms to whom you want lol.

Your skill as a Healer should ultimately decide whether you're bouncing in and out of Cleric stance for DPS, or if you should just focus on heals. Having just gotten my WHM, I know personally that I'm not so good at the stance dance, so I usually just focus on healing. Unless a crucial mechanic is ignored, there will be no wipe. If the tank is good with his support skills and the DPS are actually dodging, then maybe I'll add some modest damage. That being said, I know the expectation endgame is that you have to be able to heal, dps, and god knows even tank as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Who was giving tips? I stated that I, being a DPS SPECIALIST and a Novice Healer do not use cleric stance because I find it risky. How is that Advise? That sounds like stating an opinion to me. All any of you have managed to change about my opinion is granting me the information that DoTs are, in fact, enhanced by damage potency buffs. That didn't change my stance on Cleric though, I still don't like it and when I tank I don't particularly like seeing healers using it. Seeing Cleric Stance when I'm a PLD makes it that much less likly that I'm going too pull more than two packs at a time lest you start spamming Holy and forget how to friggin heal right until AFTER we wipe. If I'm tanking and see cleric you can almost guarantee the DPS is going to get my com.

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And that's where you got absolutely ridiculous. By the time WHM gets Holy, s/he gets Divine Seal and Presence of Mind, should be able to get Swiftcast. That is to say, that your healer's more than able to to get tank back from 15-20% HP to comfortable HP (which is 70-80% HP) in a matter of 3GCD. The situation does include all the incoming damage.

CS dance is a sign of a good healer or an eager-to-learn healer. It's fine to play safe and not shuffle stances - especially on your first runs through the dungeons, - you can even be a pretty good healer without it (one of my FC healers is amazing even though she rarely ever uses CS. Heck, she almost made it through all Expert roulette dungeons without wipes on the first try despite not knowing mechanics at all), but... you really need to re-think how you deal with your coms. Right now, you basically want your healers to lose half of their utility to the group.

When I first started healing, I was SCH. I almost never went into CS because...well, I was nervous. Especially those first few runs as a healer...ahaha wow.
Now I pretty much am constantly in CS and really only need to get out if big damage is coming (including some big pulls I'm not used to) or someone oops'd and got hit harder than they should've.

As a WHM however I'm still pretty bad so I rarely go into CS, maybe for a few Holys, but that's it. I'm still practicing healing timing and such with this job. If you aren't personally comfortable going into CS, then don't. That easy.

Anyway if I'm DPSing and not impressed by the tank or overly impressed by the healer, usually the comm will go to the healer (or an outstanding bard. gotta support good bards). If I'm tanking, if I'm not dead then the healer is doing their job, I don't care what they're doing in the meantime, whether it's DPSing or just standing there (but that must be so boring.....anyway). My comm will usually go to the healer if it isn't a friend (since I don't like to run as tank by myself... still pretty nervous).

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Seeing Cleric Stance when I'm a PLD makes it that much less likly that I'm going too pull more than two packs at a time lest you start spamming Holy and forget how to friggin heal right until AFTER we wipe. If I'm tanking and see cleric you can almost guarantee the DPS is going to get my com.

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I mean if you're tanking you should be aware of what's happening but really just because a healer is in CS doesn't mean they aren't going to be healing you. It's sort of a silly judgement call.... for real if you wipe because the healer is DPSing two things are going to happen: one, next time they aren't going to be so don't worry about it or two, they really are terrible and telling them to stop isn't going to fix it anyway.

Also Holy has Stun. Stun is amazing.

Whoah! Holy is amazing. If I do a big pull, I am banking on holy coming out. With a bloodbath/berserk/steel cyclone/ spam OP, holy will burn the mobs down. If I don't see holy come out on a couple of initial pills I tend to be a lot more cautiou in pull size.

I love Cleric Stance, making things dead means less damage that I have to heal, and it makes the run go faster as a bonus. Considering that plenty of tanks are running around with 8k or more HP, there's a significant window where we can safely DPS, and an even bigger window if you're one to take calculated risk. I very rarely cause a wipe, but I'll be up front and apologize right away if it happens, and the run goes on. It's always nice to see my extra effort rewarded by a chat window full of commends, so keep them coming!

What I'm reading here is that not only are you a bad healer giving bad advice, you're also a bad tank who's afraid to use cooldowns because of some phobia when he sees Cleric Stance on his healer. Ok.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

What I'm reading here is that not only are you a bad healer giving bad advice, you're also a bad tank who's afraid to use cooldowns because of some phobia when he sees Cleric Stance on his healer. Ok.

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Uhm Now you're insulting my tanking skills? I understand now why over half of Balmung's "Elite" FCs disappeared in the 3 months I was on Adamantiois. You elitist and elitist wannabes need to go back to WoW and DDO if you have that much of a problem.

I was Tanking in AK Normal about an Hour ago helping an FC member that was new to endgame get her relic. And all the cool downs active at once didn't save me from a CLERIC STANCE HEALER DPSing instead of Healing. I'll be going now cause the ignorant elitism on the dungeon board is nauseating. So fair well and may the Dravanian's gnaw on your manaless corpses in 3.0.

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