Show me the MANA!

Apparently, people like to flame WHM for the mana issue. I don't know whether i should laugh or cry. While I do agree that SCH seems to have an easier time with mana because of their pet fairy and the design aetherflow, WHM is not handicapped in mana when one knows how to use regen, Shroud of saint, divine seal, and presence of mind. DS has only 1 min cool down and can be used to puch out better regen and cure 1 instead of spamming cure 2 and having mana evaporating.

Also, while WHM gains mana at a slower rate than SCH, it does not really affect how a team to finish. I said that because T13 can be finished by solo heal WHM or SCH at about the same amount the time done by the same team (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciG14dCaKrA) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhdM3-k25g)

In the SCH T13 solo, the bard did have to sing ballade for the SCH so it is not like SCH has unlimited supply of mana.

Forgive me if I'm missing the point, but what exactly is there to be discussed?

MP management is something a WHM must learn, and pretty much everyone knows that. I don't think it's a big enough issue that needs to be addressed to the entire healing community; WHMs don't get flamed that often on my server for those reasons anyway, if at all.

Hi Kabzy, Well, it is just a recurring argument used by certain minorities. Somehow even in the "healer's gimp" thread, it got turned into WHM sucks b/c of mana issue discussion. So I thought that it would be nice to have a separate thread to address this whole WHM mana issue.

Maybe this will be a silly post to amuse the entire healing community. Or perhaps not as amusing as it could have been if its author has some spare attribute points to invest into "INT" instead of wasting her "MND" in the on-going WHM mana flaming posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yare

In the SCH T13 solo, the bard did have to sing ballade for the SCH so it is not like SCH has unlimited supply of mana.

---

Woooahhh ? Really
I didn't know Solo healing in the ''top end game '' content would require more Mana ?
In a normal setting a SCH does have a unlimited supply of Mana as where the WHM would equate to the SMN where MP has to be managed through CDs and abilities...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

In a normal setting a SCH does have a unlimited supply of Mana as where the WHM would equate to the SMN where MP has to be managed through CDs and abilities...

---

Does aetherflow count as ability? If a fight is so easy that a SCH does not need use aetherflow, it is likely that a WHM at comparable gear and skill level won't need to shroud.

SCH MP is an after thought , WHM you can burn through it just as fast as you replenish it. Not ''flaming'' WHM for having Mana issues just stating that it's obviously easier for a SCH to manage MP. You pointed out a solo healed T13 in which I could never a imagine it being done without a bard in either party.....In a normal setting ...SCHs don't generally ''ask'' for mana nor require it but WHM on the other hand, you just patched up the group and used shroud ...tick tick....then big damage comes in probably use a Med II and what not Cure IIs and wala you're not necessarily hurting for MP but you're balancing which is why the procs are like the best the for WHM

Let's try to see this on a different way. We all know both sch and whm are pretty similar but people like to cry that they're extremely different.
While silly, let's compare healers like sports cars and their fuel consumption.

*All values are approximate, no crits or healing buffs were considered (rouse/divine seal/PoM)

10 second rotation
WHM : Cure I > Cure I > Cure II [352 mp (skill cost - 180 mp from server tick)]
SCH : Adlo > Physick + Embrace > Physick + Embrace [405 mp (skill cost - 180 mp from server tick)]

20 second rotation
WHM : Regen [186 MP]
SCH : Lustrate [0 MP]

30 Second rotation (aoe)
WHM : Medica II [452 MP]
SCH : Succor [399 MP]

Let us mash everything.

WHM : 3574 MP/min
SCH : 3228 MP/min

Since shroud of saints have a 3 min cooldown, let's put all of this to 3 min format and take out the amount of mp we can restore from the usage.
*Assuming both players have 5k mp, aetherflow should restore 1k mp per use and shroud 1600 ish.

WHM : 5548 MP/2min
SCH : 4456 MP/2min

And finally, cure II has 15% chance of costing 0 mp, that's roughly 1 on 6 cure I casts will make freecure come up.
In 2 minutes worth we're casting 24 cure Is which should give us 4 freecures saving 1064 mp. Which puts us at.

WHM : 4484 MP/2 mins
SCH : 4456 MP/2 min

Almost no difference in mp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mp-please

So yea, in the end, the difference between both healer performances (in non crit spamming at least) is 900 mp and 6000 hp healed. Not that much now is it?

---

Not taking sides in this debate but you forgot to acknowledge Eos/Selene in this equation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oriens

Not taking sides in this debate but you forgot to acknowledge Eos/Selene in this equation.

---

Yes and no, while all that math is extremely flawed when it comes to actual gameplay, i decided to keep whispering dawn out from it due most scholars preferring selene. Adding it only decrease the hp healed difference to under 1k, my point was mostly towards mp used regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mp-please

Yes and no, while all that math is extremely flawed when it comes to actual gameplay, i decided to keep whispering dawn out from it due most scholars preferring selene. Adding it only decrease the hp healed difference to under 1k, my point was mostly towards mp used regardless.

---

It's fine. I find the conversation/debate truly ridiculous. I play both jobs and am grateful for my cohealers. You can really tell when you're paired with a bad one >_<

All of this only really applies to pre formed parties/ statics or a lucky group where everyone knows their roles.
U cannot solo heal bad parties that get hit by stuff they shouldn't.
Try qeuing up as an over geared healer for ultima hm. Chances r u'll get a party filled with a lot of 1st timers ( cuz they just wanna clear it ) who will eat a lot of aoes and eventually die. You know u shouldn't rez them cuz weakness/ brink of death is wrecking their max hp but u have to so the party can meet dps check. Decisions decisions.
I know from farming it for the ultima card ( ironically i got it from a gold pack ) all those wasted runs gg.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oriens

It's fine. I find the conversation/debate truly ridiculous. I play both jobs and am grateful for my cohealers. You can really tell when you're paired with a bad one >_<

---

Agreed, we should be bashing lousy healers, not our friendly neighborhood SCH or WHM that makes our life easier.
When me and me Co-Healer team up we always que as WHM&SCH even though we both have both classes at respectable ilvl's.

I'm always happy when EOS or Selene is around on my WHM, works great with small pocket heals while I heal up the large damage. My Co-healing SCH will be focusing on topping them off and adding a little shield preventing further damage. Large AOE Damage? Succor + Sacred Soil + Divine Seal +Medica II and BAM everyone back at full health near instantly with some damage mitigating effects to boot.

The math to break it down is fun and all but completely irrelevant given that this game doesn't have many oppurtunities for you to stand and cast a pattern. Especially as a healer. The OP and a few others have it right. Out of the two healers I play whm mainly and I never have a mana issue. Learning resource management is just part of the class and we're given all the tools to be effective at it. Mana breakdown through numbers would only prove similar results if coil turns and primals were just target dummies.

I'd say SCH is less mana efficient in fights like t13 where you need to AOE heal everyone quite a few times.
WHM can cure3/Medica 2

SCH has EOS for some of it, but there are times succor spams need to be used

Shroud of Saints could use a recast reduce down to 100 seconds..

I've probably down'd this fight like 30-40 times now and na , SCH is there for the top off. I've never had to spam Succor unless, 1. the WHM is down 2. the WHM is low on MP or 3. the WHM blows

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matriqona

Shroud of Saints could use a recast reduce down to 100 seconds..

---

Shroud just needs to scale based on something gear based. That would eliminate the extreme peaks and valleys the ability has. As is it's incredibly strong when you first get it or the trait upgrade to it (at 48, 1060 mp is like half an mp pool), but at level 50 with high level gear, it's around 20%. Even more importantly, it would mean Square doesn't need to blow a CNJ trait every expansion to keep it up to date. Every class has enough of the boring "Increases potency/Reduces CD of <NON-CROSS CLASSABLE SKILL>" already. I want more cool things, like River of Blood or Thundercloud or Freecure, that actually affect how you play.

Always surprised by this kind of responses... You don't even need to compare SCH/WHM, you don't need all these maths ; if you feel MP is bad on the WHM you are the issue (or your team mates are). That's all.

Not to add a WHM can dps from time to time in any content. If some are able to dps that's the proof MP is not an issue at all.

Also MP management is the chore of the WHM job... Remove it and the job itseft loose its entire interest, no more challenge, no more fun... WHM is perfect as it is, WHM is WHM, not SCH, don't care if one recover more MP by time they are not working the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelya

Always surprised by this kind of responses... You don't even need to compare SCH/WHM, you don't need all these maths ; if you feel MP is bad on the WHM you are the issue (or your team mates are). That's all.

Not to add a WHM can dps from time to time in any content. If some are able to dps that's the proof MP is not an issue at all.

Also MP management is the chore of the WHM job... Remove it and the job itseft loose its entire interest, no more challenge, no more fun... WHM is perfect as it is, WHM is WHM, not SCH, don't care if one recover more MP by time they are not working the same.

---

Eh, to me part of the fun IS the math. I enjoy figuring out what a class is capable of in a vacuum, then trying to apply it to actual encounters. If that isn't your cup of tea, I understand.

The thing you said I do take issue with is when you said WHM is perfect. It isn't, and neither is any other class, encounter, or mechanic in this or any other game. Nothing is ever perfect, and I think that looking for ways things could be improved is fun.

People really underestimate how powerful the White Mage really is, they can basically heal the whole party in 2 seconds and keep them healed with regen and medica II, while the scholar would struggle to get the whole party HP up before the next AOE. Sure the scholar is better at MP management and they can do pretty darn well in solo healing content that doesn't need 2 healers, but when you need 2 healers a party without a white mage is a nightmare. Honestly I think when Astrologian comes out the White Mage will be the most balanced out of all 3 because its just right in the healing department; while scholar is more of a support type of healer who do you think handles most of the healing in raids; yes the white mage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menae

Nothing is ever perfect, and I think that looking for ways things could be improved is fun.

---

For sure nothing is perfect but there's a difference between wanting improvment and wanting a nerf of the job (or the contrary, doesn't know how to tell it in english). This last is currently the one demanded by most of the WHM here on the forum just because they found difficulties. Improvment doesn't need to be based on difficulties met in game to be created whereas a nerf in this case that can be seen as an improvment for some players is actually implemented to assist the players who have whined for it during months. This happened to the WHM, there are plenty of "whm is lacking" "whm mp issues" thread and some funny guys are now trying to balance it for some reasons with the sch side "sch will always be inferior to whm" "sch blablabla".

But then improvment and breaking gameplay are different notions for everyone, to each their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanguisio

I'd say SCH is less mana efficient in fights like t13 where you need to AOE heal everyone quite a few times.
WHM can cure3/Medica 2

SCH has EOS for some of it, but there are times succor spams need to be used

---

I can't think of any time you would need to spam succor. Other than megaflare/rage and megaflare/pillar combos, no additional damage follows up on AoEs and you have time to single target heal or let your fairy do her work. If that's not enough, I would have to question what your co-healer is doing - unless you're solo healing, in which case MP management is out the window anyways.

people still are talking about this ._.

My point is that, if you are fucked and your team is suffering from whatever reason, be it Titan X, Ifrit X, Odin, dungeon speed run huge pulls, sometimes you just gotta run out of mana. Don't ever tell me that you as WHM or SCH never ran out of mana once. That's completely bs. Shit happens and as healers, we have to deal with it.

In a clean run of all content there is no reason to ever need ballad as whm or scholar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

In a clean run of all content there is no reason to ever need ballad as whm or scholar.

---

Two words and a smiley:

Holy. Spam. :cool:

Whm don't have mana issues, players d

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mp-please

...
Let us mash everything.

WHM : 3574 MP/min
SCH : 3228 MP/min

Since shroud of saints have a 3 min cooldown, let's put all of this to 3 min format and take out the amount of mp we can restore from the usage.
*Assuming both players have 5k mp, aetherflow should restore 1k mp per use and shroud 1600 ish.

WHM : 9122 MP/3min
SCH : 6684 MP/3min
...

---

What happened here? How did WHM go from 3574 mp / min to 9122/3min after mentioning 1600 mp gained from shroud vs 3000 gained from scholar from aetherflow, yet you say scholars 6684 mp /3min from 3228 mp/min?

Why is scholar so behind when Aetherflow restores more mp than Shroud?

I have to admit, I came into this thread thinking about:

http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/up.../05/tl-som.jpg

Dafuq is this "mana" you all speak of?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slib

What happened here? How did WHM go from 3574 mp / min to 9122/3min after mentioning 1600 mp gained from shroud vs 3000 gained from scholar from aetherflow, yet you say scholars 6684 mp /3min from 3228 mp/min?

Why is scholar so behind when Aetherflow restores more mp than Shroud?

---

I deducted mp restored by both mp regen skills (except energy drain)

Aetherflow on a sch with 5k mp = +1k mp per min, shroud = ~1600/ 3 mins
3574*3 = 10722 - 1600 = 9122
3228*3 = 9684 - 3000 = 6684

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menae

Two words and a smiley:

Holy. Spam. :cool:

---

You win. Lol

I want to play with these hypothetical white mages that never run out of mana.

I've never seen one in game, which means that they're all terrible at the game. Including myself. I guess. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mp-please

[...] Since shroud of saints have a 3 min cooldown, let's put all of this to 3 min format [...]

---

the cooldown is only 2 minutes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mp-please

I deducted mp restored by both mp regen skills (except energy drain)

Aetherflow on a sch with 5k mp = +1k mp per min, shroud = ~1600/ 3 mins
3574*3 = 10722 - 1600 = 9122
3228*3 = 9684 - 3000 = 6684

---

and that makes sense... why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

the cooldown is only 2 minutes

---

well f... i made that when i was about to go to sleep. i'll fix that now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

and that makes sense... why?

---

I made that all based on performance, how much mp a class loses per min if they're spamming the rotation mentioned. In that case i have to deduct mp gains and possible freebies. Regardless that was all figurative, nobody heals like that, nobody has reasons to heal like that ever.

IMO both healers have ample MP to manage with every fight we have atm.

The issue is efficiency, the reason that SCH need a MB was SCHs are hugely inefficient at AOE healing repeatedly.