FFXIV should take a note from SUIKODEN

In Suikoden, you built up a personal castle or keep & both playable characters & non-combat NPC's would move in & join your cause...

It'd be really sick eventually to have this sort of a thing going on where we liberate an old castle & make it our own.

The Aesthetician would have his own barber shop, Garlond Ironworks would have a shop, you'd be the master so you'd have your own quarters, the Crystal Braves militia quarters would exist...

This could be truly epic, with the castle expandable with the story.

You'd have your own Chocobo Stables, etc. Perhaps even make it customizable!

HOARY BOULDER COULD MOVE IN!!!

What do you all think? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

i'm confused by your use of "we, our, you..."

This is an instanced Castle that only applies your own character that only your character has access to?
If it is instanced every one potentially could have their own Hoary Boulder.
If it's not instanced, how is it different from Revenant's Toll?

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Fair point. It would be instanced. And yes, everyone could have their own Hoary Boulder but that's already how it is if you examine MMO's critically. Allow me to explain:

Every individual player is on their own timeline, so my Hoary Boulder is not your Hoary Boulder already if we're not in the same place for the Main Story Questline.

This would be no different; and Hoary may be a poor example for an "optional recruit" as I'd like to see him be the shining example of a 'minor-major' story character.

If this Keep were part of the Main Story, you'd have some characters who'd come & go along with movements in the story (e.g. Cid takes leave for a mission, is replaced with minor NPC's during his travels).

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Originally Posted by LystAP

...it would essentially be a "Garrison".

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And my argument to that is, so? I envisioned this sort of feature for MMO's long before Vanilla WoW even. Just because WoW is the first to get to implementing a feature of this kind, I don't think others should be locked from such a cool system.

Besides, I think FFXIV could do it a lot better... Garrison's are pretty whack.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

Honestly, it would be nice, but there would be too much data in customization. I also think it would be messing with the storyline that they're crafting if you have NPCs moving in. If you notice, the NPCs move around depending on the part of the story you're on...

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If done in a fashion where changes/unlock progress with the story, much of the data would be client-side. As for messing with the storyline, just like Suikoden, characters would come & go as the story continues (e.g. Cid leaves for a mission, is replaced with engineer NPC for a time). And the nature of NPC's wouldn't act any differently than it currently does, there's a timeline & my Hoary is different from your Hoary if I'm further along in the story. To make things easier & work with the story, it could be the Crystal Braves' Castle.

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Originally Posted by Nikita

...it cuts you of from the rest of the world by putting you in your own instance never to see another player again (mostly).

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No, not necessarily. There are plenty of ways to implement it so this is not the case.

One example, if it's an integral part of the Main Story, it could be like the Waking Sands or Rising Stone where other player-characters are present.

It could be developed in such a way that certain portions or NPC's are present for some but not for others depending on place in the story's timeline.

On the flip side, if fully-instanced, it could be such that you have some extra things to do there but not so severely gated that you wouldn't step out into the world frequently.

Personal Housing is already like this anyway minus some features (yet more to come).

Heck, Keeps could be FC-wide / developed. How epic would that be!

While this would be nice as side content (sans CB for reasons), the amount of possible variation would make it nigh impossible to integrate into main story. Having some sort of personal hub would be quite fun to mess with though.

It would be truly epic... but apparently, even storing and managing item data gives them too much of a headache, not to mention housing plots. Something like this is, I think, as good as impossible, for at least the next 5 years.

FC/Personal House?

This could've been FC 'housing' while the current Housing kept personal or for eternal bond/friend groups.

Having your FC control a Castle or Keep, zomg.

White Knight Chronicles called and want's it's Georama back....WKC2 followed up requesting the return of the guild town also.

it's basically what FC housing should have been.

the NPC thing is weird, i do not like the idea of multiple versions of story NPCs.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

it's basically what FC housing should have been.

the NPC thing is weird, i do not like the idea of multiple versions of story NPCs.

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What do you mean multiple versions? At some point in the story, they would move in.

One version.

Ahhh!! Suikodennnn! I love those games!!

ahem... anyroad!
The idea is pretty cool actually!

The only problem I can see is if SE decides have like... half a dozen hoary boulders in peoples houses.
I actually hate when games do that. Hoary boulder is one npc. ONE. He can't be in 12 different places!

I actually liked the way XI did the npc's during the WotG expac. If you had enough rep or somesuch, you could get certain NPC's to fight with your nation.
But it was always one npc and that npc would only show up in one place. So if that sly bastard, Maat, was in Windy, he wouldn't randomly showed up in Bastok.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

What do you mean multiple versions? At some point in the story, they would move in.

One version.

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i'm confused by your use of "we, our, you"
- "we liberate an old castle & make it our own."
- "you'd be the master so you'd have your own quarters"

this is an instanced Castle that only applies your own character that only your character has access to?
if it is instanced every one potentially could have their own Hoary Boulder.
if it's not instanced, how is it different from Revenant's Toll?

My impression is that the dev team envisions something more or less like this for housing. Personally though, I'm a little bit in doubt of their ability to pull it off meaningfully (i.e. as more than just a gimmick or two).

And, well, housing in this game is its own messy ball of wax as is...

But all that aside, it would be pretty cool to have something like this.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

What do you mean multiple versions? At some point in the story, they would move in.

One version.

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So if anyone can persuade Yugi into moving in his castle, nobody else can have her? And everyone who have to talk to her for a quest have to go to the castle of that one player? ^^

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Originally Posted by Felis

So if anyone can talk Yugi into moving in his caste, nobody else can have her? And everyone who have to talk to her for a quest have to go to the castle of that one player? ^^

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I don't think you understand. It's one version in your personal timeline. MMOs do this, as it wouldn't be very fun if only one person could do the main scenario quest (for example).

Breath of Fire 2 did this back on SNES.

You find an old run down village. You start fixing it up, NPCs you find come live there, you can choose 3 different styles of architecture for the town, and all your characters you dont use kinda live there when not in your party. In the end if you did it right, the whole town could lift out of the ground, and you use it like an airship.

And even though Suikoden did it way earlier, WoW fans would still say that FFXIV copied Garrisons if this feature were to be added.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

And even though Suikoden did it way earlier, WoW fans would still say that FFXIV copied Garrisons if this feature were to be added.

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Well, going by the OP's description, it would essentially be a "Garrison".

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Originally Posted by LystAP

Well, going by the OP's description, it would essentially be a "Garrison".

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Which in my opinion is pretty terrible since it cuts you of from the rest of the world by putting you in your own instance never to see another player again (mostly).

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

Ahhh!! Suikodennnn! I love those games!!

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YESSSS *Raises the Jowston Alliance flag*

or hells. *Raises the Merc group Bear.... Lion.... flag.... thing*

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Fair warning, a shitload of TL;DR -

Honestly, it would be nice, but there would be too much data in customization. I also think it would be messing with the storyline that they're crafting if you have NPCs moving in. If younotice, the NPCs move around depending on the part of the story you're on. One moment, Thancred, Yshtola and the others are hanging out - his another plot point in the story and they're gone or standing about elsewhere. Same with the more minor peeps like Haory and his buddy. I also wouldn't want to see multiple NPCs in random places - it kind of breaks immersion. I was finding myself looking for the guys in the Rising Stones/Waking Sands throughout the storyline and seeing where they moved to and said in relation to the events unfolding or have happened. It's subtle, but amusing. Also, you would have about a million Thancreds, Yshtolas and so on all over the place. Same with minor characters like Haory. As much as I'd want to horde some NPCs for something like my own castle, I don't think it's a good idea in immersion terms.
On the same vibe, I don't want to walk into some other player's castle to talk to NPCs I need. It still breaks storyline.

If the OP means a castle owned by ALL players, and not a single person (as in, having a large collaborative fight to free a stronghold, and not one FC or person will own it - just become a free agent castle that the NPCs techncially run.... thats different. That would have to be written into thier storyline.
Something like this could be a story trial or a weekly event. NPC run castle attacked by x enemy forces and needs the adventurers help defending (or raiding).

Which reminds me, I should try to find some of those other peeps after 3.5's storyline (trying not to give spoilers...) and see if SE snuck them in the background of some location.

As for the castles, if refering to multiple of them.... another option I'd love to have, but this is technically fulfilled by the housing.

In terms of freeing and occupying a castle that an FC or person would own - RO does something like this with the War of Emperium event every week. I'd only taken part in the earlier days of WoE with one of the major guilds so I don't know if it's changed much... - but, basically, there are territories of maps with several castles on the map. During the allotted WoE time period (2 hours on a set day if I remember correctly), the map you're transferred to once stepping in the 'door' to the castle is an entirely PVP map.
You have the current owners of the castle - and their alliance guilds - set up to defend their Emperium crystal at the center of the castle (which consist of several rooms and some are quite maze-like if you don't know the route) from both the 'courtyard' area (hunters traps, etc) or castle walls (snipers/wizzes, etc) and then the REAL test of defense in the emperium room itself.
Then, the invading guilds and their alliances trying to get through the defenses (Send in the vit tanks to rush the defenses, follow it up with FS vit priests, etc) and DPS down the giant Emperium. Once the Emperium is broken, the old castle owners are punted out and the new guild has to set up defenses (then the old owners can try to take it back) asap.
The catch and similarity is in the win - the guild who holds the castle by the end of the 2 hours owns the castle for the week and can reap the benefits of the guild treasure, economy and place to chill - as well as access to the castle dungeon (which only allows access to the occupying guild and alliances). Main towns in the regions (Payon, Prontera, Geffen, etc) display flags with the guild logos/names for which owns castles.
Then it starts all over again next week and guilds fight guilds for the castle and it's benefits.

Unfortunately, except for some unwanted castles, smaller guilds never stood a chance in hell other than to get slaughtered by either the defenders, or bigger guilds attempting to raid the same castle (getting rid of competition... or just blood lust. "You're not our guild/alliance! KILL!*Smash*").
Heaven save the newbies wandering into the castle area out of curiousity and confusion.

if you're thinking about doing something like that but against, say NPC forces (Garlean or otherwise), there could only be so many castles to be occupied before there aren't any left for anyone else. And just like in RO, it's only going to be the super big FCs and hardcore FCs that will get any of them.

Though, I will say, having experience raiding a castle with a larger guild - it is quite fun >.> .....but only if you know the right people/FC.

Knowing how the servers are, if they added this it might bring down everyone's internet service worldwide from the strain of resources required, besides from the obvious sarcasm I wouldn't mine something like this though. :P

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

White Knight Chronicles called and want's it's Georama back...

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I think you misspelled "Dark Cloud".
(not the FF3 boss :P)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I think you misspelled "Dark Cloud".

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LOL, never got to play that one, but Level 5 is Level 5, so yeah, Dark Cloud & WKC want Georamas to be added, as do their players.

Wonder if Dark Cloud is out on PS Now yet? If not I still have a slim PS2 kicking around, and even a fat PS3 that will run it, but I won't risk it until it get's better thermal compound...who am I kidding, I have too much to do in this game to do that.

The fact that WoW can have their current bug-ridden garrison system but not instanced housing after 10+ years of subscriptions fueling them still irks me somewhat. F2P games have instanced housing/personal spaces and have for decades. Why the bloody hell can't games like FF14 and WoW?

Anyway, I adore Suikoden. :D Truthfully Lominsa really takes me back to how Suikoden towns tend to feel like with the looks and the music. Though considering that an instanced fortress seems to be tougher to code given WoW's "success" with garrisons, I would much rather an instanced personal housing first to test the waters.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

And even though Suikoden did it way earlier, WoW fans would still say that FFXIV copied Garrisons if this feature were to be added.

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Depends. The garrisons in WoW are very lackluster when it comes to choices available. You're sort of placed into the garrison and at most you just have to run chores (mining ore, picking plants, assigning and collecting work orders). Nothing in it can really be customized outside of trivial things (what color drapes are placed over buildings and what race the guards that patrol the garrison are). The only real notable thing about it is that a LOT of the story characters you run into while questing on Draenor hang out at your garrison after you meet them. For example, you encounter WoW's resident master hunter (Hemet Nesingwary) and after doing a radial quest for him he decides to hang out at your garrison.

I guess the comparison in FFXIV terms would be if you were given your own castle, and as you complete quests some of the involved NPCs would start hanging out at your castle because, well, who DOESN'T want to hang out with the Warrior of Light? Say that after completing the stuff in Forgotten Springs some of the girls from the U tribe decide to hang out at your castle. And then you run into Fufulupa from the MSQ and the moogle involved in the bard questline. Perhaps Sylvie from the CNJ questline decides to sometimes pay you a visit. Or maybe Aldis. You get the idea.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

The fact that WoW can have their current bug-ridden garrison system but not instanced housing after 10+ years of subscriptions fueling them still irks me somewhat. F2P games have instanced housing/personal spaces and have for decades. Why the bloody hell can't games like FF14 and WoW?

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There is this. I wasn't thrilled with Garrisons and if you check out the WoW forums, they're compared to facebook games rather than an actual housing system.

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I'm on the fence as far the OP's idea goes. I liked the Suikoden games but the castle was the place to bring everyone together and little more. That's why the protagonist (and Thomas in III) is the Tenkai Star, AKA the one that is the gathering point for the other 107 stars of destiny. I guess you could argue that the WoL is the gathering point for everyone, but I don't see the type of character variety to support a Suikoden-like castle system or something based on WoW's garrisons.

On the flipside, if this were a Suikoden game, Hildibrand or inspector Briardien would be the one who collects info on everyone. And I'm sure lots of people who jump at the opportunity to make Hildy a permanent part of their lives.

I'll definitely support anything that lets me have my own castle and upgrade it through various means, becoming bigger, livelier, more useful. I always love it when games allow me to have my own place to upgrade, like NWN2.

I'll actually look at this "Suikoden" game now, as I've never played it before.

Suikoden 1 and 2 were the best games in the franchise up until they started to stray off into the updated graphics and hopping out of the 2D market.

3rd suikoden was okay so was the 5th one but if you asked me I would of much rather had them stick to the 2D anime style 108 star's of destiny.
They went to psp it turned into a legend of legaia wanna be game and the DS version looked so bad it was like I was playing a N64 game and the graphics were bad.

I loved the 2 sound tracks from part 1 and 2, I wish they never dabbled into the 3D/2D going into full 3D on psp.

Genso suikoden team needed to take a page from NIS america and stick with the 2D like they did with Disgaea.

More characters more fun factor, 2D spells look better than 3D, spells and 2D animation was better as well. Suikoden kind of reminded me of chrono trigger with the combo rune magic and joined attacks.

I really wish konami hadn't messed up that series, this is coming from someone who owns the whole series, Suikoden 1-5 and tactics except for the 2 others DS and Psp I feel that those 2 games but I have tried them and was not really happy what I seen.

Actually I wouldn't mind something from Suikoden here and that is the guy who made suikoden 1 and 2 sound track I am sure his music would kick major butt and I wouldn't mind if SE use runes also to give special abilities like that its too bad konami didnt make a MMO out of Suikoden cause that would be awesome.

Favorite rune was Pahn's boar rune and Turtle mcdohls Soul eater rune and Rage rune and vicktors clone rune.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

Honestly, it would be nice, but there would be too much data in customization. I also think it would be messing with the storyline that they're crafting if you have NPCs moving in. If you notice, the NPCs move around depending on the part of the story you're on...

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If done in a fashion where changes/unlock progress with the story, much of the data would be client-side. As for messing with the storyline, just like Suikoden, characters would come & go as the story continues (e.g. Cid leaves for a mission, is replaced with engineer NPC for a time). And the nature of NPC's wouldn't act any differently than it currently does, there's a timeline & my Hoary is different from your Hoary if I'm further along in the story. To make things easier & work with the story, it could be the Crystal Braves' Castle.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I'll actually look at this "Suikoden" game now, as I've never played it before.

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Play them in order but skip IV or any spin-offs in my opinion!

So I'd say, play Suikoden I>II>III>V & stop.

Suikoden I & II are even far more nostalgic for me than virtually any of the FF's!

I/II are on par with any of the best FF titles & have unique gameplay elements from them too.

The soundtracks are AMAZING to get you amped up for it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPDs7ifXHGk

Im a HUGE Suikoden fan and i must say that I loved 2 the best, but don't sleep on 5. Suikoden 5's story was amazing. Not as good as 2, but its up there. I would love a continuation of it as well as Xenogears/Xenosaga. But thats another thread. Oh and lets not forget Romancing Saga and the Saga Frontier Games....OMG.....im having flashbacks

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

To make things easier & work with the story, it could be the Crystal Braves' Castle.

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but basically this is what they did with the Waking Sands and Rising Stones, it just seems like their characterization of an adventurer aren't the types of people who would own castles.

presumably, in Heavensward the story would have a new base of this type in Ishgard.

and parts of it would directly conflict with what has already been implemented for FC/Personal Housing.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

but basically this is what they did with the Waking Sands and Rising Stones, it just seems like their characterization of an adventurer aren't the types of people who would own castles...

...and parts of it would directly conflict with what has already been implemented for FC/Personal Housing.

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Not necessarily, it could have entirely different features.

Also, sure elements of this exist in the Waking Sands & the Rising Stones... true, but it's like you've mentioned, "in Heavensward the story would have a new base of this type in Ishgard."

So why not a Castle or Keep with additional functionality?

You mentioned that "their characterization of an adventurer aren't the types of people who would own castles..."

Yeah, maybe when the stakes were lower. But we're going into war, this isn't some underground operation anymore or mustn't need be.

Also, our renown is growing into other regions & across the lands--we're going to need better defenses & greater protections.

We practically merit a small army at this point & small armies need arms, equipment, food, shelter, & so forth.

Besides, I don't think it'd be a bad thing if this became the new FC Housing so Personal Housing could have the old FC lots since there's such an epidemic over the lack of space.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

The fact that WoW can have their current bug-ridden garrison system but not instanced housing after 10+ years of subscriptions fueling them still irks me somewhat. F2P games have instanced housing/personal spaces and have for decades. Why the bloody hell can't games like FF14 and WoW?

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A lot of it has to do with server strain.
Those F2P games you mentioned were usually designed with this concept in mind. For example, EQ2 had housing from the word "go," while EQ1, by the same company, didn't, so they had to add non-instanced housing.
SWTOR merely adapted the pre-existing system they use for personal story quests and let you customize the space, allowing for housing. Plus they had personal ships from the word go (which were basically personal "rooms" inside an instance. You could communicate with people in the same type of ship as you via public channels while you were there).
Basically, instanced housing isn't something you can easily tack onto a game unless they're precedent. FFXIV's only precedent is the inn rooms, thus our only "personal housing" is basically customizable inn rooms.
In addition MANY of these systems take time. WoW's devs appear to have or had a personal vendetta against things like housing, bards, and glamour systems, so they rarely added them. In XIV, they are AWARE we want customization, and are very likely working on it, but at this time they clearly have limitations they're working with.
FFXIV did not have housing from the word "go," and thus this takes time.
Add to that there's simply not a lot of motivation to work on something people are going to complain about no matter what you do.
Make it easy? It cheapens having and *earning* a house.
Make it too hard? It's too haaaaard!
The players will never be satisfied, so they're definitely going to take their time and make a focused approach, rather than cave to every single demand.
In other words, no big castles staffed by named NPCs. At the most you'll get one staffed by your retainers and hireling NPCs.