Cinematics and FFXIV

Final Fantasy as a whole has always pushed the envelope when it comes wonderful visuals. And ever since the days of FF7 we have been wowed with cut-scenes showing our heros in the most bad ass of situations...

https://yudontnojack.files.wordpress...x-cutscene.jpg

or the calm before the storm...

http://cdn1-www.playstationlifestyle...nshotauron.png

or some of the most heart breaking moments most here would never forget...

http://media.insidepulse.com/zones/d...-cutscene2.jpg

We have only a few examples of this in the FFXIV world...

http://img.brothersoft.com/screensho...284882946.jpeg

and even those select few have us all wowed with the intricate battles and emotions...

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ioix_Death.jpg

emotions that i think would not have been captured with game-play graphics.

I know there was a shift in the way the FFXIV team deals with high quality situations (ex. the flower pot polygons) but i'm starting to feel like you guys might have gone to far in the opposite direction. You had to go back in order to build the game back up and I understand this. But since cut-scenes are pretty much as synonyms with Final Fantasy as moogles and chocobos I would really hope y'all would start considering rendering the really important, game-changing portions of the main story in this style. All my brain would let me see during the 2.55 cut scenes was how bad ass this could really look as our hero's one by one made their stand. I appreciate all the hard work you guys are putting into this game, and i know this request isn't a small one but i feel as though it is time to up the quality now.

Neither FFXI nor FFXIV has done these "out of engine" cutscenes for anything other than bumpers and trailers for things like expansions. 1.0 is actually the exception in that it has an ending cutscene.
These trailers take a long, LONG time to make, and are wholly impractical for MMO development cycles.
And, to point out, every single example you just showed is an out-of-engine cutscene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

Neither FFXI nor FFXIV has done these "out of engine" cutscenes for anything other than bumpers and trailers for things like expansions. 1.0 is actually the exception in that it has an ending cutscene.
These trailers take a long, LONG time to make, and are wholly impractical for MMO development cycles.
And, to point out, every single example you just showed is an out-of-engine cutscene.

---

I know they are "out-of-engine" (not game play) screen shots... thats the whole point lol, im saying for the huge cut scene events like 2.55 this game would really benefit from it. Also I used to be a motion graphics designer in the past so i am well aware of the time it takes to complete such a task, i just do print design now and im working on stuff for christmas already lol. But it is far from impossible since they knew what was gonna transpire in 2.55 forever ago. Just talking about big events... not every side quest here and there.

Granted, even taking in engine cutscenes, recently I have had a long conversation with a friend about this: Having had a look at some of the story scenes from 1.0 out of curiosity the quality of cinematography is evident. The way the camera moves, your own character is emoting much more, actually feeling like they have an expression, just a lot of small things that make the cutscenes feel more alive. In 2.0 they scenes for the large part were not up to that standard. But I have to admit that the team has become progressively better, especially in camera work over the 2.0 cycle until now in 2.55. The only thing that is still a bit lacking is our character mostly only expressing themselves with facial expressions and turning their head, making them still feel like a motionless puppet, rather than an active participant. I know for the sake of allowing us to project whatever character we imagine it has to be very general, but a bit less passiveness could not hurt.

Lots of the 2.55 scenes have our characters in them. I would find it more "disrupting" (can't think of a better word >.<) to have them alternating from game engine to pre rendered as the scenes changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pterois

emotions that i think would not have been captured with game-play graphics.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXmS...tailpage#t=737
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngv6QaqDIXg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nuinn

Lots of the 2.55 scenes have our characters in them. I would find it more "disrupting" (can't think of a better word >.<) to have them alternating from game engine to pre rendered as the scenes changed.

---

this is defiantly a good point... would only work if they could craete a means to read player data and render then in the scenes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngv6QaqDIXg

---

that's wonderful... i can do it too... Gaius vs. the Scions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h8TKeXk5eA

This is about a million times better than any of the cut scenes in 2.55. However this is no longer how things are done, that was back when the curving bullets probably had more polygons than our PC's now lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pterois

this is defiantly a good point... would only work if they could craete a means to read player data and render then in the scenes.

---

Sorta makes me wish stuff like crystal tools was more viable for major cutscenes. Whatever the solution is, I don't want our character to be limited with the same motions and handing invisible stuff over and over forever as their amount of usage gets them stale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pterois

that's wonderful... i can do it too... Gaius vs. the Scions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h8TKeXk5eA

This is about a million times better than any of the cut scenes in 2.55. However this is no longer how things are done, that was back when the curving bullets probably had more polygons than our PC's now lol.

---

And still done with gameplay graphic.

I would be surprised if ARR had a fraction of the development budget the failed 1.0 did. If you want a reason for why things aren't as pretty as they could be, that's probably your answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pterois

this is defiantly a good point... would only work if they could craete a means to read player data and render then in the scenes.

---

This just isn't going to happen, though. The costs of implementing it outweigh the benefits.
Out-of-engine cutscenes simply aren't practical for MMOs for more than trailers and bumpers. In fact I've never seen an out of engine cutscene aside from these cases in any MMO, even more cinematic ones like GW2 and SWTOR.
In order to get out-of-engine cutscenes, you'd need to sacrifice another aspect of the game.
And once again, this is an MMO. The standards are fundamentally different because they involve our own custom characters. There's also "PS3 limitations" to take into consideration, although in this case it's the simple problem of out-of-engine cutscenes bloating the game's size even more than it is, which is pretty much a universal issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pterois

This is about a million times better than any of the cut scenes in 2.55.

---

http://www.kevinneeld.com/wp-content...owski-Meme.jpg

Anyway, a lot of story stuff has been bland throughout 2.x, but I thought 2.55 was getting back on the right track.

If people did that, we'd have to watch DERPLANDER in place of our characters on key points of the narrative.

I surely would dislike that a lot.

"Final Fantasy as a whole has always pushed the envelope when it comes wonderful visuals."

Uh, no. Final Fantasy FMVs maybe, which seems to be what you want more of, but that's separate from what they do with the game engines which have been respectable, but never bleeding edge. And if you just want more FMVs...why? XIV isn't an ugly game, and there's a lot of story and lore and character here. If you'd rather have more dev time and money spent on cutscenes which couldn't show anyone's character instead then dear *god*, no. Yes, they were pretty and they were novel, but they didn't really add anything to the games other than some (admittedly entertaining) spectacle and are nowhere NEAR as important to final fantasy as moogles or chocobos. Nevermind that both of those two were a part of the series before FMVs even existed in games.

Maybe some action scenes that doesn't involve our character could have a CGI?

But as other's have said, it would be too expensive?

Also:

The cutscene in FBoB was SE's idea and I think Yoshi didn't like want it because it would take too much resources especially for something that not many will see

Not just expensive in terms of cost, but in terms of disk real estate. MP3 voice tracks can be compressed to about a meg a minute, and utilizing the in game engine means that cutscene content can be done very quickly with little disk space. Whereas high definition FMV content will quickly bloat a 20 minute cutscene into 200 MB, ten times what an in-game rendered cutscene would take. That adds up quickly in a game built on cutscenes.

1.0 was really superior to all that has been in 2.0 in terms of cinematics. I think 90% of all cutscenes are made of standard emotes. It actually looks like normal PCs doing roleplaying like I did in World of Warcraft back then. Nevermind...

What bothers me though and that is the reason why the 2.0 implies that my character is godlike is that the party members aren't included in cutscenes. They are there for the victory stance scene and then magically disappear to leave all credits as a Warrior of Light to me. Thanks, peasants.

Well, no. There have been quite a few references to "thanks to the crack team of amazing people you assembled last time, we were victorious, could you do that again?" You're praised as much for your organization skills (THANKS DUTY FINDER!) as you are for your personal abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Catwho

Well, no. There have been quite a few references to "thanks to the crack team of amazing people you assembled last time, we were victorious, could you do that again?" You're praised as much for your organization skills (THANKS DUTY FINDER!) as you are for your personal abilities.

---

Yeah it seems NPCs don't just praise you for WHAT you did but for being able to gather like minded individuals to help out. It's almost like the WOL can get everyone click his/her Like button.

But they are still missing in most of the cutscenes. That's the point.

I'd rather them spend money on improving the awful textures. The game itself looks beautiful, but textures on characters, clothes and objects up close, look... Not so great. Not horrible, but it could definitely be improved upon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

Maybe some action scenes that doesn't involve our character could have a CGI?

But as other's have said, it would be too expensive?

Also:

The cutscene in FBoB was SE's idea and I think Yoshi didn't like want it because it would take too much resources especially for something that not many will see

---

If I see it right , FCoB CE are still with ingame graphic, not a CGI. More polished than our standard CS, but still ingame graphic.

T13 CS Spoiler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzymmLPmBiQ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

http://www.kevinneeld.com/wp-content...owski-Meme.jpg

Anyway, a lot of story stuff has been bland throughout 2.x, but I thought 2.55 was getting back on the right track.

---

The actual cutscene (graphics) quality is of a higher grade then what we have right now. Not sure how that can be an opinion.


What is with the trend of calling everything an opinion these days...including facts. oO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

If I see it right , FCoB CE are still with ingame graphic, not a CGI. More polished than our standard CS, but still ingame graphic.

T13 CS Spoiler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzymmLPmBiQ

---

Oh, I was actually talking about:

The CGI of Loisoix vs Bahamut

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeyis

The actual cutscene (graphics) quality is of a higher grade then what we have right now. Not sure how that can be an opinion.


What is with the trend of calling everything an opinion these days...including facts. oO

---

It was a joke and an excuse to use a picture from The Big Lebowski. No reason to go white knighting for his cause when I'm not attacking him or anything. Oo Please note where I even agreed and said most 2.x stuff has been bland.

But anyway, it's still an opinion. Pretty big no-brainer that the textures on 1.x were higher res than anything 2.x, but 'better' is still subjective. I did love that scene to pieces, but I don't think we need SE to go throwing time and money at SUPAH HIGH DEFINITION CGI!!!!111 for scenes to be interesting in this game. I would rather they spend that time cranking out more interesting content and a better story all around. But that's just my opinion, so your mileage may vary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

If I see it right , FCoB CE are still with ingame graphic, not a CGI. More polished than our standard CS, but still ingame graphic.

T13 CS Spoiler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzymmLPmBiQ

---

T13's opening CS has a neat combat scene done with in-game graphics. But, that's not what's being talked about.

(What I've said below isn't very spoilery, but I'm just going to throw the whole thing in a spoiler tag anyway just in case it bugs someone.)

The out-of-engine CGI cutscene in FCoB is at the end of T12, and anytime someone posts it to youtube, SE sends a C&D to have it taken down. One video managed to slip through by having it embedded at the end of a bunch of other stuff. It's not hard to find, but I'm not going to link it here. I won't deny that it's pretty darn awesome looking, but personally, I don't feel it added much to the game or the story being told. Especially since what actually happens in the scene has to be explained to you in a normal conversational CS that follows it.

In short, the out-of-engine CGI cutscene is totally extraneous and could have been left out without changing much, if any, of the dialogue and none of the plot would have been lost. I would have honestly preferred if they had taken the money they spent on that CGI CS and instead used it to improve the cinematography and overall quality of other story cutscenes in 2.4 and 2.5. Though, in my opinion, 2.5 did have a few good ones near the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

...I don't think we need SE to go throwing time and money at SUPAH HIGH DEFINITION CGI!!!!111 for scenes to be interesting in this game.

---

i disagree... if we would have seen this whole scene (w/blood too ^_^) the first time around my jaw would still be on the floor BTW THANK YOU FOR THIS SE!!! exactly what i was talking about :P

http://i.imgur.com/MjVqURK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9wSJAcV.jpg

CGI cut-scenes are beautiful and all, but I don't believe that's what this game needs more of. Like many have stated, the cinematography of the in-game cut-scenes could use a little extra love!

This is one of my favorite scenes in 1.0 -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9fifS8Nri8 If you take the time to watch it, you will notice it is ripe with detail. The use of the camera, the NPCs, the player, and so much more expression. The camera work, alone, in many of the 1.0 cut-scenes is definitely more lively than 2.0 content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pterois

I know they are "out-of-engine" (not game play) screen shots... thats the whole point lol, im saying for the huge cut scene events like 2.55 this game would really benefit from it. Also I used to be a motion graphics designer in the past so i am well aware of the time it takes to complete such a task, i just do print design now and im working on stuff for christmas already lol. But it is far from impossible since they knew what was gonna transpire in 2.55 forever ago. Just talking about big events... not every side quest here and there.

---

I dont think you really know how long it actually takes to do scenes like that. Rendering time alone is staggering and it gets worse the more complicated it is. I read Cars 2 took like half a day per frame... and thats Pixar with HUGE render farms that im sure put whatever SE uses to shame. Sure SE only needs a 2-3 minute video but thats still a lot to do and invest in. There is a reason they can only do them per expansion. Not to mention the man hours it takes to set up, model, animate, light, program, and post-production stuff (compositing, music, sound fx, etc). Its just not practical.

Besides, this makes more sense with standard SP FF games since our characters are the same person. Whats the point in doing all that if all youll be doing is watching other characters at best. Honestly, in game graphics have gotten good enough IMO.

Having finally seen them, in my opinion, the cutscenes at the end of 2.55 are wonderfully done and those are done in-engine. I hope to see more stuff like that in 3.x!

I like the Hildebrand cut-scenes, they really push the limits of the character models to cartoonish proportions. the story is a fun mix of Inspector Clouseou and Inspector Gadget.

I think the in-game graphics are decent enough for this stuff, but with DX11 they have the chance to use a lot of cinematics effects like depth of field and more advanced AA methods (because frankly, FXAA doesn't look to good) without impacting performance too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

Neither FFXI nor FFXIV has done these "out of engine" cutscenes for anything other than bumpers and trailers for things like expansions. 1.0 is actually the exception in that it has an ending cutscene.
These trailers take a long, LONG time to make, and are wholly impractical for MMO development cycles.
And, to point out, every single example you just showed is an out-of-engine cutscene.

---

Incorrect. Theres a lengthy CGI cutscene in final coil.

Gameplay > Graphics.

Three important questions I ask myself before playing a game:

Is the text legible? (Assuming reading is involved)
Is the story captivating? (cliff-hangers, red herrings, plot twists, etc)
Is Gameplay interesting? (fight mechanics, abilities, etc)


I get that Final Fantasy is known for its "best" graphics in games, however the MMOs are kind of an exception to this rule...now that being said would I mind a HD texture pack later on down the line for PC players? No, I wouldn't. But do I want them to put graphics as a priority over gameplay and story development? No, that I do not want.

My two cents.

In A Realm Reborn, dynamic camera movements and motion-capture were vastly reduced and replaced with static camera shots, scarce zoom-ins and actions executed through nothing but sets of pre-coded emotes. Lots of scenes involve nothing but the character walking over and staring at the NPC as their mouth flaps open and closed for a minute, to then give the "stoic nod" even Thancred mocks us about.

Seriously, the big nerf of cinematics and ARR is revolting. One has but to youtube any XIV 1.0 cutscene to realize that. I feel my character has been turned into a robot compared to how alive they looked in 1.0 cutscenes. It's not even the graphics, it's the character and camera animation that needs a big rework. That SE didn't even bother until it came to the end of 2.55 cutscenes (those ARE well done, though camera is still static MOST of the time, at least the character animations are noteworthy there) is kind of offensive to me as a long-standing fan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

Oh, I was actually talking about:

The CGI of Loisoix vs Bahamut

---

This is an extended version of the 1.23 ending, not a CS ^^

the problem with the ARR CS is not CGI or not CGi, but that they miss the old spirit of the 1.x CS.
Not the graphic, but the camera moves, the action and the animations. The CS in ARR are most time too stiff and too impersonal.

We need something like this again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0UfrACtqdM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pterois

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h8TKeXk5eA

This is about a million times better than any of the cut scenes in 2.55. However this is no longer how things are done, that was back when the curving bullets probably had more polygons than our PC's now lol.

---

The ending cutscene of the current storyline is actually more action packed and cinematic than normal and arguably on par with that one. I was also really pleased with the amount of voice acting in the recent story cutscenes. I hope we'll get more of this and less bla bla bla + stock emote cutscenes.

Quote:

---

"Thank you hero of light, thank you, thank you, must needs, aetheric combobulation, prithee, prithee, did i mention you're awsome? thank you... thee"

---

Quote:

---

*smile and nod*

---

Regarding cgi cutscenes with your character in, it's a bit too much. Rendering those high quality scenes takes a farm of high end pcs hours / days to render. Firstly, which pc would render the scene again? The players PC would either take too long or simply not manage this, and if square were to undertake this for every player they would need enormous resources which would be a huge waste / impossible. Secondly, the players the player character models are lower detail than those in the cgi cutscenes / adverts - the models / tetxures in the cutscenes are given much care and attention by some of the best cg artists in the world. They could never create every character combination in such detail. If the player character models as they are were pre-rendered into a detailed cgi scene they would look better than in engine due to lighting and other effects, but still noticeably out of place compared to the rest of the scene.

That said, I share the desire to see more cgi cutscenes!!! Single player Final Fantasy games are speckled with a nice evenly distributed number of these and in fact they are often a big part of the motivation for me to continue to play. It would be great if we could have a few more cgi scenes at parts of the story which don't need to directly involve our character (i.e. a new primal appearing, introduction to new characters / new area's, important events that our character isn't present (or in shot) for). Perhaps the ending story scene of each major patch would be a good point to slip in a juicy cgi scene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapphic

Incorrect. Theres a lengthy CGI cutscene in final coil.

---

i'd actually argue that one. It's less an independent cutscene and more an extension of the pre-existing cutscene. It's very clear they made the FCOB out-of-engine cutscene at the same time as the End of an Era cutscene. The fact that some of the details don't completely mesh with the in-engine cutscenes is evidence of that to me. They even have it that way on the YouTube channel now.

I don't think they should spend money on more beautiful cutscenes when they are fine. I'm sure there's other things Yoshi needs to fix which I won't elaborate here since there's tons of threads about issues.