No Love for DOH/DOL ; ;

When I started 14 I was really impressed that SE put crafting and land jobs in the same realm as DOM and DOW jobs. It soon became clear though that you can't just do crafting and get the main quests done in this game. DOH and DOL jobs are still 2nd rate citizens in the world, especially after nerfing sp gain for DOH. I really wish the developers would compensate some how for those of us who love crafting and give us our prestige back.

You do remember that they raised the sp rate drastically before they dropped it minorly a month later, don't you?

My point is I feel SE is not treating crafters on a fair basis if you consider we are in the same category as DOW or DOM as a main job.

i do feel as if se gave the short end of the stick to the DOL/DOH classes

SP rate is only nerfed for leve, unless you've been relying solely on leve you wouldn't be affected that much. However there need to have more activities for DoH/DoL, where's the ship building? I wish they would allow DoH to build Company Building and decorate it when they release it, while DoL will get tasks to venture into the wilderness to seek specific material only used in Building.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

SP rate is only nerfed for leve, unless you've been relying solely on leve you wouldn't be affected that much. However there need to have more activities for DoH/DoL, where's the ship building? I wish they would allow DoH to build Company Building and decorate it when they release it, while DoL will get tasks to venture into the wilderness to seek specific material only used in Building.

---

That would be so awesome to be able to do that. It's a really good idea.

What I was thinking is that instead of instanced Company Building in each city, why not allow Companies to build their buildings at Hamlets as well? Company Building with have Crafting Facility upgrade, Storage, Personal Room for each Member, Airship dock, Chocobo stable etc. and each of these components need to be built by Crafters with special material gathered by Gatherers. This would help even more with Hamlet defense mission because you will find it more convincing to participate in Hamlets where your Company has a presence. Further down the road the Building at Hamlets can serve at Trading Hub where you gain Company Mission that DoH/DoL prepare X amount of Y items, and DoW/DoM will escort Chocobo Caravan from the Hamlet Buildings back to cities to get Company Prestige etc. That would add even more life to Eorzea.

Oh and while we are at it, allow Companies to build decorative monuments in their Hamlets once they get to a certain Prestige threshold, like statues, fountains etc. that provide small buff to all players within the Hamlet vicinity. These as well as Buildings can be damaged by invading Beast Tribes/ Garlean Empire during Defense Hamlet mission and require DoH/DoL to repair them. At this point, scrap the Aetheryte/Camp closest to the Hamlets and move them inside Hamlets to let them serve as full-purpose player towns.

I think this is a very good idea. I feel that this would indeed give crafters prestige and the ability to participate in company activities if they went this direction.

Mariya, by any chance did you play Darkfall Online? That's what it sounds like you are describing and it's brilliant. I sent my feedback/suggestion back when companies were first announced. As well as ship building with sea monsters would be quite awesome as well to get other crafts involved, like blacksmiths to build cannons/cannonballs and alchemists used to make gunpowder/etc. There's alot they can do with companies, we'll probably have to wait till they are out to see how advanced they are. They are what I'm looking forward to the most at this point though.

The original plan for DoH and DoW was to have them fight side by side with DoW and DoM, this was pulled at the last minute though, don't know why. After launch on the FFXIV Official site they still had thing's up about them like Miner having treasure hunter making it a THF type class and Blacksmith wielding a hammer as it's weapon of choice.

This would go a long way to explain the huge grind that there is for crafters and gatherers as they weren't designed to level up by synthing and gathering only, they were supposed to gain ranks in battle as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

The original plan for DoH and DoW was to have them fight side by side with DoW and DoM, this was pulled at the last minute though, don't know why. After launch on the FFXIV Official site they still had thing's up about them like Miner having treasure hunter making it a THF type class and Blacksmith wielding a hammer as it's weapon of choice.

This would go a long way to explain the huge grind that there is for crafters and gatherers as they weren't designed to level up by synthing and gathering only, they were supposed to gain ranks in battle as well.

---

I noticed this early on in 'actual' Beta as well. I thought it was a little strange. A neat concept of sorts.. but it did seem rather rushed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gracious

It soon became clear though that you can't just do crafting and get the main quests done in this game.

---

Ive done all the main quests so far on my miner, I do not see an issue with this, stone throw ftw. OK my npc helped but still :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eruantien

Ive done all the main quests so far on my miner, I do not see an issue with this, stone throw ftw. OK my npc helped but still :P

---

There is a huge issue with this actually and that is the game is on crazy easy mode. As SE removed DoH and DoL ability to fight at the last minute for reasons unknown they had to dumb down the main story missions to allow DoH and DoL the chance to complete them.

Are you seriously telling me that DoH and DoL in their current state should be able to topple the Garlean Empire. When SE decided to remove their ability to fight they should have also removed their status as a full time class and put them back to be being side classes and separate to the main story. As it is now the game is not super easy to cater for casual players it is super easy because they messed up with DoH and DoL classes. They need to either reinstate their fighting capabilities or demote them to being side classes. I would personally prefer they were given their fighting skills back.

Or the same way we had a Mog House in XI, we can have a Linskhell house, where only Linkshell crafter members can do Furnishing for it.

Maybe with a separate House for each memeber too?? :P

Op does make a very good point. Crafters got lost in all the talks about combat and jobs. They were suppose to be on par with every other class and should be. The question is how do we make them useful outside of just crafting a item or harvesting a rock? Maybe give them the party role as support class that can enhance players items in combat or improve drop rates. I don't know but I would love to make them more important.

If crafters got a role in combat party, then fighters need a role in crafting party like a GLA will give you buff when you make sword, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Op does make a very good point. Crafters got lost in all the talks about combat and jobs. They were suppose to be on par with every other class and should be. The question is how do we make them useful outside of just crafting a item or harvesting a rock? Maybe give them the party role as support class that can enhance players items in combat or improve drop rates. I don't know but I would love to make them more important.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

If crafters got a role in combat party, then fighters need a role in crafting party like a GLA will give you buff when you make sword, lol.

---

To Quote myself:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

When the DoH and DoL classes were originally put into the game they were supposed to actually be playable battle classes too. You were supposed to be able to party up with the DoW and DoM classes and they would have their own unique thing's that they would bring to the party. I remember reading on the FFXIV Official site that Miner was supposed to be sort of a THF class and Blacksmith used it's hammer for a weapon. Even after the game was released those things were still on the Official site for some time.

So what happened? They must have pulled it at the last minute or something nobody knows but this could be one of the main reasons that craft classes are such a tedious grind now as you can't rank them up how they were originally intended and they haven't got around to balancing that out yet.

---

LOL, fair enough. I was just remember when they talked about miner "mining" coblyn in combat. But buffing weapons and armor or making items that buff for an hour would be cool.

Regardless after battles changes are made the devs do need to focus on crafter content.

Personally, I think that DoH are treated with a decent amount of respect by SE. You can finish the story-line quests as a crafter-- that's where Parley comes into play. High rank crafters can easily survive on the gil they make from crafting, especially if they throw in a fisher + culinarian + alchemist combo for creating and breaking crystals. The SP you get from synthing an item 7-9 ranks above your rank seems to similar to killing a red mob or partying in a behest at a similar gap between ranks. As a route for solo play, I think that DoH is reasonably effective as is and will becomes more so once companies are introduced and some sort of housing is added in.

With DoL, I agree with you. When the SP was increased for DoW/M and DoH several months ago, the sp for DoL stayed the same. With botany, in particular, we still don't have any trees higher than rank 5 and logging a tree 7-8 ranks above you will only yield 300 sp or so (1/2 to 1/3 of what a DoW/M or DoH would get at the same rank gap.) On the upside, if you work smartly, you can make decent gil on DoL, but it's incredibly difficult to get high rank.

Also, I find it slightly annoying that I carry a sharp hatchet and scythe with me, but I have to kill mobs with stone throw. Just seems silly to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CelestialFurry

...Also, I find it slightly annoying that I carry a sharp hatchet and scythe with me, but I have to kill mobs with stone throw. Just seems silly to me.

---

^ this. Ever cut yourself with a scythe irl? Ever smashed yourself with a hammer or cut yourself with a saw? Stepped on a nail? I have and it should certainly be considered damage :). Also hatchets / hand axes were successfully used as a primary weapon by vikings and such irl. They can be more effective against a shield-wielding opponent than a sword because you can hook a shield out of the way with an axe but not so much with a sword.

I don't think it would be unreasonable if crafters / harvesters could do some damage with their weapons (say at or below GLA damage levels). I could also imagine them also having access to some buffs / debuffs. I think that the abilities might be passive or something (if they were like 1hr duration and were any good then people would switch to DoL/H, buff, switch back to a "real" combat job).

Before they made items degrade so slowly you could even have a thing where if a crafter made that item then it didn't degrade while a crafter of that type was in the party with you. Could also have like crafter of the kind that makes the item gives that item a +10% bonus to stats while in group or something (I think someone else mentioned this).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moatcarp

I don't think it would be unreasonable if crafters / harvesters could do some damage with their weapons (say at or below GLA damage levels). I could also imagine them also having access to some buffs / debuffs. I think that the abilities might be passive or something (if they were like 1hr duration and were any good then people would switch to DoL/H, buff, switch back to a "real" combat job).

---

I generally agree with this, though I think the DoL/DoH classes should do strictly less damage than the dedicated DoW/DoM classes, and should serve more of a support role in combat, since they have other things they can do outside of battle. Though I do wonder how xp/sp gain would work in that case, especially since SE is considering removing physical levels and crafters getting crafting skill from combat seems a little odd.

Quote:

---

Before they made items degrade so slowly you could even have a thing where if a crafter made that item then it didn't degrade while a crafter of that type was in the party with you. Could also have like crafter of the kind that makes the item gives that item a +10% bonus to stats while in group or something (I think someone else mentioned this).

---

I like those ideas, and if memory serves, I think they had mentioned some similar sorts of things in interviews prior to release. I wonder why they didn't follow through on those?

I believed that DOL/DOH classes have already serves their purpose as a crafter/gatherer. I don't see any point in them participating in battle.

Reasons:
1) If we need extra buff or treasure hunter, etc. We should wait for SE to expand other battle classes etc.
2) If DOH/DOL is to participate in battle and gain SP just like DOW/DOM, I don't think I want to rank them by throwing gils to rank them up through tedious crafting.

Maybe one good way of making DOH/DOL class useful in battles is by FF11 system of Main/sub, but using Main (DOW/DOM) and Sub (DOH/DOL).

That should solve the issue. It's just a penny of my thought.

In the social caste system, the current status of each discipline is like:
Battlers: [IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-----]
Crafters: [IIIIIIIIIIIII---------]
Gatherers: [III------------------]

Gathering to be a gatherer is dead because of developmental inattention and the jobs were stepped all over by crafters early on. Extinct by the end of october.

A crafter can still hold their own due to increased attention to its economics, but they lack equal content design to battlers.

Battlers are use to having more influence than even that, so they pushed to knock crafters down the pile and have largely succeeded with the introduction of raid content before crafting and gathering content, gear NM drops, and more developer focus.

There's no such thing as a botanist, miner, or fisherman though. All of them are just crafting tools now.

Hmmm, if you ask me, I definitely wana play DOW/DOM classes for battling content, storyline quest as compared to DOH/DOL, even if DOH/DOL is to participate in the battle, I believed it will be much less fun compared to the original battling class with appropriate skills.

Question is then Why play DOH/DOL?
For me, I play DOH because it's something different and fun in another perspective.
i) Repair own and other's gear.
ii) Making gears, challenging on HQ, feels cool.

For DOL, I used them to save cost gathering my own mats for crafting, gathering lots of mats is fun to me too.
"Yes! I've got 99 walnut log, 99 iron ore, etc"

Both DOH and DOL is already much fun as compared to other MMO in my opinion. To others maybe boring,
but I give credit to the SE as it's somehow original (I like it)

To conclude, Battling class should always be the main class to enjoy game play, storyline content.

"But...I don't like battling class as it's boring, I like DOH or DOL more"
Maybe some might felt so, but isn't it strange if battling class is boring? The game will probably be dead if that's the case.
Which is why I hope SE makes more improvement to battling system as priority.

Nevertheless, DOH and DOL adds fun to the game in another aspect as I mentioned and I loved playing them too.
But if people find it boring or less fun compared to battling class, maybe just concentrate on DOW or DOM which I know there are many who does just that. It's cool too.

Looking forward to Black Mage class ^^

Quote:

---

To conclude, Battling class should always be the main class to enjoy game play, storyline content.

---

For me, I just enjoy DoH and DoL more. I like that I can do them on my own and that it's something that I can customize to the amount of attention I feel like putting into the game at the moment. I only use my battle classes for farming mats or if I'm bored after I've done all of my local and DoL leves and grinded all my mats and gil away. Battling and I don't really get along. And honestly, if that's how I want to play the game, then it should be an option.

I really enjoy botany for botany's sake, even though it's a class that's pretty close to useless for me. I don't have much interest in carpenter or culinarian right now and the only thing I need to harvest is flax. But, I still play Botany a couple of hours a day, simply because I enjoy it. And that's what I should be able to do. Yes, it makes more sense to add in development for DoW/M first, because according the surveys, that's what a majority of players play.

But, if they don't make some changes to DoL soon, then it's going to become even more obsolete, because even players that enjoy the class won't want to place the dedication in. It's already getting to that point-- we don't get nearly the SP that other classes get and the difficulty to reward ratio is often way off. For instance, how is a lauan log a grade 4 drop, when it's a rank 1-5 carpenter item.

I think that once they fix some minor things about the DoL classes and add in housing, furniture, etc., then DoL jobs will be more in demand. I mean, how is someone going to build a house without a massive amount of wood and nails? And the amount of shards needed will be massive as well, so the demand for crystals will go up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CelestialFurry

I really enjoy botany for botany's sake, even though it's a class that's pretty close to useless for me. I don't have much interest in carpenter or culinarian right now and the only thing I need to harvest is flax. But, I still play Botany a couple of hours a day, simply because I enjoy it. And that's what I should be able to do. Yes, it makes more sense to add in development for DoW/M first, because according the surveys, that's what a majority of players play.

But, if they don't make some changes to DoL soon, then it's going to become even more obsolete, because even players that enjoy the class won't want to place the dedication in. It's already getting to that point-- we don't get nearly the SP that other classes get and the difficulty to reward ratio is often way off. For instance, how is a lauan log a grade 4 drop, when it's a rank 1-5 carpenter item.

---

That's really cool. I myself love DOL so much that even with the current system, I'm continuing them even if I hit 50 cap as they are fun and free and good money^^.
Too bad only a handful of us like you and me like it so much will continue as it is now. (Or is it only me?)
Well, that's the figure I guess, not too sure how many out there really like the DOL as it is.

I like cooking, but what is the main problem with cooking? The main problem is cooking is not getting any closer compared to other DOH as the food is not really useful, not to mention the massive ingredient lol.
So what's more important for a cook? Make the food more useful so that people will start consuming them like FFXI.
For me, that's sufficient, won't really think a great exciting battle/storyline needed for cook. But there's always someone that want their main cook to battle with others, providing buff etc.

I remembered someone mentioning in the forum that since DOH can participate in battle, "my fighter wana take part in crafting too" People are greedy.
A : "I want my mage to deal massive damage in battle, at the same time able to repair and make mage gears with some talent of fishing, harvesting and mining things which involve magic"

B : "And what the hell is harvesting involving magic??"

A : "Oh, let me explain, for example walnut wand is make from walnut log ingredient, I dun mind my mage can't harvest up food ingredient, but at least let my mage harvest what mage need and make what they need, I dun want to be just a normal mage, i need more stuff!"

B : "@@'"

I have every intention of continuing with botany, even with the current system, just cause it's fun. But I'm afraid that there won't be too many people like you or me, which will make it less of a priority, and in turn will cause SE to place less focus on updates for DoL, which will only make less people want to play the class.

For cooking, I think the buffs are useful as is, but no one know what foods do what. We need a place to publicize what foods do, so more people understand the buffs and demand increases. The first class I started working on was Cul, but I stopped at r25, after it became evident that there just wasn't much demand.

Quote:

---

I remembered someone mentioning in the forum that since DOH can participate in battle, "my fighter wana take part in crafting too" People are greedy.
A : "I want my mage to deal massive damage in battle, at the same time able to repair and make mage gears with some talent of fishing, harvesting and mining things which involve magic"

B : "And what the hell is harvesting involving magic??"

A : "Oh, let me explain, for example walnut wand is make from walnut log ingredient, I dun mind my mage can't harvest up food ingredient, but at least let my mage harvest what mage need and make what they need, I dun want to be just a normal mage, i need more stuff!"

B : "@@'"

---

Oh, see that high level mage can dabble in any crafts or harvesting they want to, they just have to switch tools. As it is, a DoH/DoL character is about as useful in battle as a r1 mage trying to harvest cedar.

Although I am trying to get a battle event to happen with my LS: Stone the Pieste. We get a bunch of high rank crafters and harvesters together and see how long we can survive using only stone throw. So far I don't have any takers :(

I'm harvesting log and ores for my own use tho. If DOL population is getting thinner and thinner, there will be a time where the log and ores price go unbelievably insane. May not feel it now @ 50cap but DOH will certainly feel the pinch after cap raise where only higher rank DOL is able to get their hands on the mats for high rank crafting.

As such, I'm not really worrying that people will give up DOL, if such situation do happen, my main income of gil will come from DOL instead of DOH aiming for HQ3.