A few questions: how are the values for stats such as crit, det, acc, etc, determined. Like how does one know what the highest and best value for each?
How do I use Ariyala's calculator, better yet help me understand how to use it. If I cant afford to buy and meld items such as the kirimu coat, how do I use the calculator to give me bis for things I cant afford and still be able to do fcob? Thanks.
Need help understanding BiS(best in slot)
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03-26-2015, 10:47 PMdughugNeed help understanding BiS(best in slot)
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03-26-2015, 10:54 PMCyrus-Wallace
Basically, the starting point is to cap accuracy. Either with food or gear alone, you gotta meet the current acc cap for the current content. From there, it kinda depends. If you ask for my opinion, I've seen plenty of DPS that love to stack DET and CRIT, without a determinied cap, while having the needed accuracy. As for paladin, which is my case, we mostly agree that parry is a trash stat and we prefer to stack DET to increase the base damage, hence the emnity generation.
Other players prefer to take the path of the skillspeed/spellspeed. Depends on the content you're running and how much you care about it. BiS in this game is kind of bland, and even though there's a difference when you work on these sub-stats, unless you're doing end-game content, there's no risk of messing it up, in my opinion. -
03-26-2015, 11:18 PMAlberel
For ariyala's calculator you want to first select your class and race, then click and drag the ilvl sliders at the top to indicate the ilvl range you have available to you. After that just use the 'BiS Solver' which comes preset with that job's stat weightings and accuracy cap to help find the best options (just hit 'solve', you don't need to mess with the numbers).
In case you don't know what stat weightings are they're essentially how big an impact a given stat has on your performance and has been calculated by the community through a great deal of testing. In the case of my Summoner, using Intelligence as the baseline with a value of 1, each point of weapon damage is worth 6.9 times more than a point of INT whilst Spell Speed is only worth a measly 0.098 (it's useless for SMNs). Unfortunately there's no resource in game for knowing these values.
It's worth noting that the difference in effectiveness between multiple pieces of the same ilvl is marginal for most jobs. There is a difference, but unless you need to squeeze every last drop of efficiency out of your equipment you're normally fine just meeting the accuracy cap for each turn and then just getting your ilvl as high as you can. The only real exceptions are skill/spell speed on BRDs and SMNs as the stat is essentially useless to them and a complete waste (in fact in SMNs case it hurts them as it causes them to burn MP quicker through Ruin spam). -
03-26-2015, 11:28 PMMalevictonFor the first question, people determine stat weights by comparing their output while wearing different sets. Put on a det-heavy set, check dps. Put on a crit-heavy set, check dps, etc. It gets a bit more complicated when you try and really math it all out since there are a lot of different variables involved, but that's the gist. Crafted gear helps a lot since you can get more control over the stat distribution. Also, the more different sets you have to compare with, the better; just make sure the other testing conditions are static (aka, don't use procs and stuff. eliminate anything that might affect the result that isn't stats).Quote:
Originally Posted by dughug
As for using ariyala, it's pretty easy once you play around with it a bit. Start by clicking the BiS solver near the top of the page. This will bring up a menu with some options. The numbers on the left are just the stat weights, and are generally kept up to date. You can raise or lower the accuracy amount depending on what lvl of content you plan to do. On the right side of the menu is a drop-down menu labelled "exclude items dropping in or after." You can use that to exclude fcob drops and get a pre-raid set that'll still meet acc cap. The default settings will include fcob gear, so if you're looking for an overall bis then just leave it as is.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think ariyala will not include crafted gear unless you specifically add it into your set. If you do want crafted gear, build the melds, then use "lock currently selected gear" to make ariyala fill in your other spots. If you're trying to avoid crafted gear, though, then just carry on doing things normally. -
03-26-2015, 11:42 PMDocent
"Best in Slot" generally implies focusing on the items that gives you:
1) The lowest possible accuracy that still beats the minimum required for the content you're doing (anything above is wasted budget points)
2) The highest possible of CRIT and DET (with a bigger focus on Crit or Det based on your job).
2-BLM) Alternatively, Spell Speed goes here if you're BLM.
For most melee, that means having the lowest possible Skill Speed, although some jobs have "favoured" breakpoints to make their rotations work better, or to squeeze an extra hit during your most powerful buffs (warrior being the prime example). Parry is rather worthless for tanks, so is often not even considered.
That said, Best in Slot is something you should only really pursue once you're at the horizontal progression level (ergo, you're in full 130, you're looking to better yourself). For the most part, the raw stats on ilevel 130 are high enough that it will beat (or match) better itemized but lower-level items. It certainly helps to know that a piece or another of ironworks ends up in the "official best in slot" set for fully-geared people, but if that set REQUIRES you to beat T13 AND get the drop so you have enough accuracy to run T13... Then you're in a problematic situation.
Also, Best in Slot varies based on content. Most people don't care to optimize for non-raids, but when you're doing most High level dungeons (All but Sastasha HM, Qarn HM and Snowcloak), you get capped at ilevel 110. This means that crafted + pentamelded gear is almost universally the best gear ever here.
When you run WoD, ST, LotA, most HM primal and such, accuracy cap is so ridiculously low, you could conceivably have a different gear set where you pick all your "damage gear" (skill speed, crit, det) over your normal set (accuracy, crit, det) as the extra accuracy does nothing to you.
More than often, people use somebody else's "best in slot" gear to determine their own goals ("So I need pants from T___, and I can use Twines on boots and body..."), without realizing that you actually need to fiddle around your gearset a lot more than that if you want to be the best you can be at every moment during the journey (rather than striving for an ideal, but being totally broken as you try to make your way there) -
03-27-2015, 12:28 AMMakado
Best in slot is totally up to you. Get your accuracy cap for the content your doing, which is most important and then just put on gear that adds other damage increasing stats.
Overall though the only thing that you will really notice a differencr if you really stack completely in one stat. Otherwise, as long as you have a high Ilvl you won't really see much difference in anything changing around 15-25 points of secondary stats. -
03-27-2015, 12:47 AMSapphicIf you really want to maximise BiS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace
Using FCoB as an example. Each turn has a different accuracy cap and thus BiS would be having different gear layouts for each turn, as obviously you don't need turn 13 accuracy for turn 10.
Also with 3.0 and the raised stats, stat weights may change. As for example, if what I've read will be implemented in regards to SMN and Spell Speed. Weight on that stat will increase. -
03-27-2015, 01:13 AMZaftNo, it's not. Best in slot means the best item for that item slot for that class. There is really no arguing what is the best in slot. If item1 is worth 400 points and item2 is worth 430 points, item2 is the clear BiS. Even if the outcome is a tiny increase in DPS, it is still the superior option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makado
Does that mean you have to play that way? No, not necessarily. But don't try to change what BiS means. -
03-27-2015, 02:28 AMDocentEverything is situational. We used to hate having to repeat that over and over and FFXI, but it's still true here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaft
Sometimes the choices are obvious..
Let's say:
A) hypothetical ilevel 130 body with Crit (Major) + Det (Minor)
B) hypothetical ilevel 130 body with Det (Major) + Skill Speed (Minor)
Most of the classes will end up with a "higher score" for Item (A), and will build their best in slot around that item
But if the options are:
A) hypothetical ilevel 130 body with Accuracy (Major) + Crit (Minor)
B) hypothetical ilevel 130 body with Crit (Major) + Skill speed (Minor)
You may end up with piece (A) as the best in slot, because that's the best place to get Accuracy to the amount you need, given the rest of the gear that exist / that you own.
It doesn't even take stats weight, however, to understand that item (B) will outperform item (A) in any situations where you don't need that accuracy.
"Best in slot" is nice and all, but you need to specify what it's going to be used for. -
03-27-2015, 02:39 AMMakado
Exactly, one fight may favor a skill speed build where another favors a crit det build. Having a static set for all content is for the nubs.
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03-27-2015, 03:03 AMkyuven
I can say with certainty that, while the exact balances change for most classes, BRDs have the "privilege" of having a stat that's nigh useless for them: Skill Speed. All it does is drain TP, and every point in skill speed is a point that could be in Crit, which affects their bloodletter procs.
Other than that, on the other end of the spectrum we have BLM, who gets a LOT from spell speed (i've heard there's a sort of cap or something, though) and det and crit.
There's SOME wiggle room, but in general most classes have a stat you don't need a whole lot of. -
03-27-2015, 03:11 AMDocentSkill Speed hurst everyone because of the limited resource. Spell speed works great for BLM because of unlimited resource.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuven
That said, Skill speed does MORE to Bard than extra useless accuracy. It may not give MUCH, and certainly won't help once you're out of TP, but it will improve DPS ever so slightly on the way there... -
03-27-2015, 03:24 AMZaftOf course. BiS is always going to differ based on the content it is applied too. But what Makado stated is plain wrong. Each class has its own weights, each class has its own requirements. WAR needs to ACC cap, and then hit the SS breakpoint for 9-hit Berserk, and then get Det and Crit, for example. If you just throw on gear without knowing what you need, you're going to come out subpar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Docent
Edit: For example, I see this thrown around as "WAR BIS" a lot by people who don't understand priorities. See the glaring problem? http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PQXT -
03-27-2015, 03:35 AMDocentWhere to start?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaft
Under accuracy cap for T13 (555/558), over accuracy cap for anything else in the game, and doesn't have the "minimum" of 390 skill speed recommended by DPS-focused warriors?
571 accuracy if the eat Caviar, which seems overkill. (Is that BiS supposed to eat Black Truffles, or god forbid, bacon bread?)
It's not using melded Platinum accessories, either... -
03-27-2015, 03:41 AMZaft
Exactly. There are clear problems with it. We know that it isn't BiS. That's why statements like this:
Are doing far more harm than they are good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makado
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03-27-2015, 08:29 AMMakadoYes. So much harm to the community for explaining that after accuracy cap unless you stack a particular stat that it really makes no difference what you wear. If you can show me a 130 BiS vs a 130 with the opposite gear doing the exact same rotation that has a SIZABLE DPS difference then you can say that. But the truth is as long as same item level gear is used in the end its going to be to close to even care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaft
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03-27-2015, 08:41 AMkyuvenThis is true, but it should only be a last resort. There's a reason the kirimu pants are considered BIS pre-FCOB despite only being 110Quote:
Originally Posted by Docent
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03-27-2015, 08:42 AMDocentNow that twines are out, I really really doubt any melded 110 can beat a 130, even with the worse stats.... I haven't checked the Kirimu pants and Ironworks one, mind you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuven
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03-27-2015, 10:22 AMkyuvenWell see, the kirimu pants can have accuracy as well as both DET and CRIT. The DET makes up for the difference in DEX, more or less, and the CRIT is, well, the BRD bread and butter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Docent
the ironworks pants have accuracy and skill speed. I only wear them because I can't afford the kirimu pants just yet and need the accuracy. Since skill speed basically does nothing for bards, it means the stat slot is "wasted" whereas the kirimu pants get use out of all 3 stats they can hold. -
03-27-2015, 03:18 PMdughug
Wow, so many great and detailed answers, thank you. I have a better understanding now.
Another question: When I use ariyala's calc, without fcob gear because I don't have any yet. And it lists gear that I don't have, how do I know what is the second best item when it only gives you a green line for the best which I may not have? -
03-27-2015, 10:56 PMDocentThere's actually a really neat feature to help you gear as you grow up in Ariyala:Quote:
Originally Posted by dughug
You can use the inventory system to tell the website which piece you have, then, you can have the Best In Slot calculator actually run with those items only and it will tell you what's the best outfit you can make out of those.
The thing is, you can use this system in a bit of a non-obvious way: You can actually say you own all of the stuff you CAN get access to. For example, you may not have all of World of Darkness drops yet, but add them to inventory regardless. Then, run the BiS solver, and it will tell you which pieces to mix and match for the best results (but won't actually tell you to use dreadwyrm, since you didn't add it there, etc.).
After that, it's just a matter of figuring out which items it recommends that you don't actually own yet, and start working towards that. -
03-28-2015, 02:40 AMdughug
Thank you, very helpful.