It doesn't matter how good of a DRG you are.

You will always be considered a 'second pick' to Ninja's and Monks. And this is slowly starting to grate my nerves a little.

I see a -ton- of really good players who join parties, only to be talked down to. "don't worry, the dragoon will tank the ground for us" is uttered before the runs even start. If a dragoon dies, it's "To be expected" and "Their natural state."

Why the heck is this? I played FFXI as well. I knew the loldrg stigma of having to build TP for one powerful pentathrust, or losing your wyvern pet easily. But this continued trend continues to baffle me.

Slowly, as I've geared my DRG more and more, I've started to realise exactly what it is.

Even some of the worst-played Monks/Ninjas will still be competative with an extremely well-played Dragoon. This is becuase Dragoon's sustained damage is weak, and to top it off - dragoons' DPS is never prioritized as MNK's dps is.

Even when a DRG can prioritize their DPS, they still have MNK's and NIN's who don't push their maximum potential who can DPS on-level with them. When going all out, food pots and all.

So is the DRG class too weak right now? It's nice for Burst Phases and pumping out numbers in a short period of time, with one of the highest spikes of the three melee DPS. It's survivability of physical mechanics and takign threat with Keener Flurry is pretty nice for survivability pushing in weaker content. And their jumps add a level of diversity and gap closing that the other classes don't have. But the big thing parties focus on will be their DPS, not their utility as an independant class for their own DPS.

A combination of social stigmas mix with the underperforming job as a whole. And ultimately, this means that it doesn't matter how good of a dragoon you are - you'll always be considered a lesser DPS than any other job out there.

DRG does great damage -- anybody who plays the game can tell that they're extremely competitive when properly played and geared.
Maybe it's a compound effect of being a male mi'qote and dragoon that attracts people's attention to you? (Nobody ever said anything negative to me when I play my dragoon. Ever)

Monk may be picked over a DRG for Coil, but that's because Dragon Kick and Mantra are extremely helpful, and Monk's damage is comparable to Dragoon.
Dragoon's debuff increases the damage of the Bard(s), which most raid groups will have.

In an age where people consider using STR+VIT jewelry (110 melded) over 130 STR stuff (to help survival), it's obvious that they would pick a job that decrease damage taken and increase healing rather than a job that provides some extra DPS.

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Personally, I don't mind dragoons. I will, however, refuse to get pug ninjas for any serious content. They tend to have blinders on, focusing on their timers, combos and mudras way too much and will forgot to do mechanics or dodge in time. Thankfully, I can let the FC's main ninja know when that happens over VoIP when he does that, but I can't with PF/DF Ninjas.

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Originally Posted by Docent

DRG does great damage -- anybody who plays the game can tell that they're extremely competitive when properly played and geared.
Maybe it's a compound effect of being a male mi'qote and dragoon that attracts people's attention to you? (Nobody ever said anything negative to me when I play my dragoon. Ever)

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Usually I play Warrior, actually. I notice this moreso when there's a DRG in the party. Personally, I've proven myself time and time again that I'm more than capable as a Dragoon. ;) But I'm not wishing to make this subject about -my- dragoon.

But I'll concede. Even when I put out my best, I don't think I can quite reach a Monk or Ninja at their prime. This might be due to the lower ilevel (Most of what I seen is from an i115-120 DRG perspective for my own personal DPS.) My benchmark tends to be pretty high to match my standards, after all.

It was old an old stigma based on the directional attacks that the class suffered from pre patch. Now the class is equal if not better. Especially since you don't have to bother with Ninjitsu lag input in my opinion (Sorry Ninjas.)

Edit: Still waking up.

My first post, now that that's out of the way, drg is awesome and I am currently learning how to maximize my damage for my 113 drg, any good combo tips would help.

My main is my 126 brd and of all the Meele dps the game offers I like drg the best, I'm not a coil player but drg doesn't seem to be bad when I run a dugeon, etc with one or as playing one, they also have the coolest looking armor, them and warrior that is.

You know whats really odd? I don't see DRGs in my party frame till their HP is zero.

Really haven't seen this problem lately, I rarely ever see PF groups specifying no dragoons. Also, lots of coil statics still use DRG as well, they're the second highest dps in the game after their buffs/positional changes once again. Monk is stronger but also significantly more difficult to play, especially in movement heavy fights where their greased lightning stacks drop off lowering their DPS significantly.

Long story short..
loldrg in ffxiv comes from DRG originally having longer position locks for jumps and low magic defense, often resulting in death.
loldrg in ffxi comes from DRG being the weakest DPS in the game for several years (they eventually buffed it)

The joke about the Dragoons "tanking the floor" comes from an oversight from the dev team. They gave the Dragoon a lower MDEF than the rest of the melee DPS.
Since the raid takes mostly magic damage, Dragoons were taking more damage than usual.

Also, since their jumps used lock them in place for longer than it is now, they were more likely to be hit from an unexpected (or expected?) AoE.

Combine the two and you get dead Dragoons pretty fast.

There is another thing regarding Dragoon and jumps: careless Dragoons can easily fall from Titan's lair and jump into deadly arenas (T5), for example.

Speaking of Titan, I belive the joke started with Titan HM, back in the days when people couldn't beat it easily (and when it was more laggy) for the relic quest. He was (and still is) a Dragoon killer.

Since then, the dev team gave the Dragoon a better MDEF and less restrictive jumps as well as overall improvements (positional requirements, DoTs...) which eased the job of the Dragoon.
But since the joke is funny and people love that kind of scapegoats, it stayed. I might even say that since these buffs, a "Dragoon tanking the floor" can be percieved as a quite bad Dragoon, even more than before.

But don't take it personally. Good players still know how to recognise a good Dragoon when they see one.

Considering most players have Zetas equipped on their mains and are close to 130 by this point in the patch, gear is everything. If you're only using a 110 weapon, don't sweat the numbers so much.

DRG already got pretty much all of their buff wishlist granted recently, so a DRG in random content performing on the same level as a MNK or NIN in the exact same level of gear has a pretty noticeable DPS advantage, unless it's one of the few fights meant to give MNK or NIN a serious edge.

Thank goodness, I don't think anyone tries to lock players based on class out of party anymore. Often times, my comps that I build tend to be 2 Melee DPS (MNK/NIN/DRG, no overlap), BRD, and BLM/SMN.

However, I do see people preferring the MNK+NIN comp to the MNK+DRG, NIN+DRG comps. The reason when I ask this is often "They do more damage."

And I have to face facts with that, I don't think DRG's do as much DPS as NIN/MNK does in encounters. Again, haven't gotten my DRG to i130 yet, so that may be something I can test and play around with a little more when I get there.

I do agree with most of the sentiments listed here - they're not nearly in as bad as a situation as they were pre-2.5, when they were more of a laughing stock than considered a competative DPS. But I do believe they still udnerperform compared to the other classes.

Whenever I do something with a DRG, it always seems that the DRG is terrible (can't dodge, dead half the time). I don't think anything is wrong with DRG actually. I just think bad players are drawn to DRG. Maybe it's for some kind of perceived ease, like DRG don't have to silence anything, keep greased lightning up, play songs, or time casts. Or maybe it's because DRGs look cool and players that prioritize a class for looks rather than playing it for some other reason might be worse? I don't know.

The problem is that DRG doesn't give any good bonus to the party compared to MNK and NIN, MNK has dragon kick and mantra, NIN has the 10% damage debuff and the TP regen ( and sometimes the perfect dodge can be OP too ), the only thing DRG has is the piercing damages debuff.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I see a -ton- of really good players who join parties, only to be talked down to. "don't worry, the dragoon will tank the ground for us" is uttered before the runs even start. If a dragoon dies, it's "To be expected" and "Their natural state."

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I'm sorry Op.. but when I read this I started laughing so hard my face turned beat red. What is air?! Give me my sides back!

EDIT - Still laughing!

I see it more as DRG attracts a lot of bad players(And now NIN) so they die often.

Weird that parties with BRDs wouldn't prefer a DRG over a NIN. MNK used to be the king of selfish DPS until Dragon Kick became pretty much essential for FCOB. Then NIN with it's Goad came around and the MNKs decided that free TP was more important than 10% more damage from the BRD...

It's a cycle. Just wait until there are three tanks and healers to choose from and we start seeing lolwar or lolsch jokes...

As a Dragoon, I can say that I rarely ever die to a Titan fight. Ya know, if I'm focused and not playing around. I call it "The Titan Dance." It's actually pretty fun. And having just jumped back into the game a few months ago after being gone for a year, I still have the habit of doing the positional attacking, haha.

But all aside, I've never really had a problem with people not liking Dragoon in their party? Whenever I play with my pally friend, he always says, "Man, do I miss your deeps."

I dunno, I really like the class, even before it was reformed. I've tried leveling other classes, and I just can't stick with it. I always go back to my Drg.

Though, I always do make a joke that if I'm not eating the ground in ten seconds, I'm not doing my Dragoon duty.

DRG is now my 7th job that I'm taking to 50, and I've got to say it's the easiest job I've leveled. I find it really boring, actually. Everything is on a very set pattern for the rotation.

My experience with DRG's is such that the bad ones are REALLY bad... but the good ones are some of the best players on my server. Leads me to believe that it is obviously one of the most difficult classes, but probably the most rewarding. I have nothing but mad respect for the DRG's that own the deeps charts.

It's a joke, OP! Don't take people so serious. It's a poke at how broken the class once was.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

DRG is now my 7th job that I'm taking to 50, and I've got to say it's the easiest job I've leveled. I find it really boring, actually. Everything is on a very set pattern for the rotation.

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now figure out what to do if the mob dies in the middle of the rotation
or do you just reapply heavy thrust and start over every time?

I remember all of the DRG jokes about them dying so much. I believe they got a survivability buff and now its always NIN who are are taking the dirt naps, at least that's who I'm always rezing. I like DRG; they look cool and show style while fighting. Then again, I'm not running endgame content, and don't know if their dmg output is 1% lower than the other DPS, making them blatantly and relentlessly inferior. :P

It is well documented that post-buff, DRG+NIN is the highest raid damage composition in a two melee party (assuming there will be a bard to benefit from Disembowel). It is higher damage than even MNK+MNK which was the previous highest damage composition. The DRG buff broke the balance between the three melee classes. DRG does more damage than MNK and with less effort and less danger to boot. Maintaining GL3 for MNK is an optimization problem that the ENTIRE raid has to bend over backwards to accomplish in exchange for the highest single target DPS in the game. Now DRG handily out-damages MNK without having to worry about maintaining stacks. Currently, the only reason to bring a MNK is for Dragon Kick int debuff, for which there is no content in the game where it is still necessary at ilv 130.

You're talking about a job that wears black plate armor with spikes, wields an abnormally large spear, and has the word "dragon" in its name. It's just one of those "cool" factor jobs like Ninja that are notorious for attracting all sorts of bad players.

Don't worry though, Dark Knight will suffer the same fate. Only difference is that there will be much more rage since bad DRKs will cause the whole party to kiss the dirt.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

It is well documented that post-buff, DRG+NIN is the highest raid damage composition in a two melee party (assuming there will be a bard to benefit from Disembowel). It is higher damage than even MNK+MNK which was the previous highest damage composition. The DRG buff broke the balance between the three melee classes. DRG does more damage than MNK and with less effort and less danger to boot. Maintaining GL3 for MNK is an optimization problem that the ENTIRE raid has to bend over backwards to accomplish in exchange for the highest single target DPS in the game. Now DRG handily out-damages MNK without having to worry about maintaining stacks. Currently, the only reason to bring a MNK is for Dragon Kick int debuff, for which there is no content in the game where it is still necessary at ilv 130.

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poking things in the butt is the new punching things in the butt

Funnily enough, most end-all groups I see switch between mnk and nin, always keeping a Drg. Some groups think nin is better than mnk (easier to play and goad), others mnk > nin (more DPS, mantra, Dragon kick); but they always seem to have that Drg for dependable damage and disembowel (cause very few leave town without a brd)

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

It is well documented that post-buff, DRG+NIN is the highest raid damage composition in a two melee party (assuming there will be a bard to benefit from Disembowel).

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You say it's well documented? Do you have links by chance?

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Funnily enough, most end-all groups I see switch between mnk and nin, always keeping a Drg. Some groups think nin is better than mnk (easier to play and goad), others mnk > nin (more DPS, mantra, Dragon kick); but they always seem to have that Drg for dependable damage and disembowel (cause very few leave town without a brd)

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This kind of class analyzing always makes me have a hearty laugh. Groups care too much about perfect class optimization even if it doesn't really matter as long as the players are good then you can win anyways lol.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

My experience with DRG's is such that the bad ones are REALLY bad... but the good ones are some of the best players on my server. Leads me to believe that it is obviously one of the most difficult classes, but probably the most rewarding. I have nothing but mad respect for the DRG's that own the deeps charts.

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One of my FC members pulled this off during a run we did together in WoD. He's trying to get DRG and BLM gear from WoD, so he went in as a DRG. I went in as a MNK as I'm trying to get MNK and NIN gear from WoD. (For the record, my DRG is getting buffed from the Poetics gear, like my Tank classes are)

During the battle against Cloud of Darkness, my FC member nearly got her aggro once just from hitting her so hard as said DRG. Used evasive jump to lose that aggro. Moments later, he got it back anyway and died for it. I followed suit, as I somehow stole her aggro from MNKing her too hard apparently. I just looked over at my FC member and typed in chat "Well, at least you know we're doing our job as DPS if we somehow managed to steal aggro."

I do wonder what the Tanks were thinking in round 1 though against her. Were they too busy doing other things or something or just simply not trying hard enough to maintain aggro? Round 2 went way better, as a Tank actually held her aggro the whole time in round 2.

As for the loldrg joke... people already stated why those jokes were flying around. Personally, even though DRG is my #1 go to melee DPS class, I still just kinda roll with it. :p

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You say it's well documented? Do you have links by chance?

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It's a bit misleading but, because of how high the burst damage of a DRG + NIN comp is, fights phase faster and thus making the fight shorter, and dps higher (shorter fight duration = more burst = more dps). A MNK's dps, while definitely stronger, takes a while to reach that point.

Monk is the hardest class to play efficiently in this game. there are no bad mnks pushing better numbers than great drg im calling bs on that
now, both playing at their best is a different story... a good mnk will likely win. but is very hard to be a good mnk

I was under the assumption that (player skill being equal) that the dps was:

Best
1) MNK
2) DRG
3) BLM
4) NIN
5) SMN
6) BRD

Now that being said, most of the DD jobs are so close they are more or less tied for positions. Like SMN/BRD, NIN/BLM/DRG/MNK. Again this is if all the players playing the jobs were at equal skill and they were fighting a training dummy not a boss which requires you to move, which is why this ranking would obviously shift and in some cases move BRD up a couple ranks because of its mobility aspect.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You say it's well documented? Do you have links by chance?

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it's pretty simple to think about. MNK stacks get eaten during phase changes or mechanics and they have to earn them back (our team's mnk always sighs when he loses his stacks due to Charge in t10) which means lower DPS during that time. DRG and NIN don't have this issue in addition to having fewer restrictions on positionals.
So it becomes less "this combination creates the highest DPS!" and more "This combination gets gimped less by mechanics and thus has better DPS"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

I was under the assumption that (player skill being equal) that the dps was:

Best
1) MNK
2) DRG
3) BLM
4) NIN
5) SMN
6) BRD

Now that being said, most of the DD jobs are so close they are more or less tied for positions. Like SMN/BRD, NIN/BLM/DRG/MNK. Again this is if all the players playing the jobs were at equal skill and they were fighting a training dummy not a boss which requires you to move, which is why this ranking would obviously shift and in some cases move BRD up a couple ranks because of its mobility aspect.

Just my 2 cents.

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A skilled ninja without lag is the highest DPS atm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Docent

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Personally, I don't mind dragoons. I will, however, refuse to get pug ninjas for any serious content. They tend to have blinders on, focusing on their timers, combos and mudras way too much and will forgot to do mechanics or dodge in time. Thankfully, I can let the FC's main ninja know when that happens over VoIP when he does that, but I can't with PF/DF Ninjas.

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I think this is a problem not with ninja players but the way the class was designed i have over time lost a lot of respect for the ninja class because most players suck at it. if they had stacks or positionals like mnk i would definitely count them as the hardest melee class to play. is just bad design

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Weird that parties with BRDs wouldn't prefer a DRG over a NIN. MNK used to be the king of selfish DPS until Dragon Kick became pretty much essential for FCOB. Then NIN with it's Goad came around and the MNKs decided that free TP was more important than 10% more damage from the BRD...

It's a cycle. Just wait until there are three tanks and healers to choose from and we start seeing lolwar or lolsch jokes...

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ninjas give 10% more dmg to everyone lol...

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Originally Posted by kehn

ninjas give 10% more dmg to everyone lol...

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It's not a 10% boost through the duration of a fight. That being said Disembowel also isn't a flat 10% bard buff.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

It's not a 10% boost through the duration of a fight. That being said Disembowel also isn't a flat 10% bard buff.

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trick attack has a 60 second cool down and buffs 6 people (who are dpsing if you include both tanks) so it's at least as good as keeping one class buffed the whole fight specially if it's the brd which dps is not super impressive. but the mnk/drg/nin/blm which make really impressive dmg

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Originally Posted by kyuven

it's pretty simple to think about. MNK stacks get eaten during phase changes or mechanics and they have to earn them back (our team's mnk always sighs when he loses his stacks due to Charge in t10) which means lower DPS during that time. DRG and NIN don't have this issue in addition to having fewer restrictions on positionals.

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"Thinking about it" and "Documenting it" are quite the different thing, though. One sounds very much so like a fact, the other is unfortunately your opinion.

For example: You shouldn't be losing stacks on wild charge, if you know how to do your DPS in that phase (unless you get chosen for wild charge? Then you lose stacks I think. Not sure.)

Honestly, when looking at DPS, I tend to look more at ideal circumstances than at the outliers where the DPS falls due to a mechanic. Anyone will fall due to mechanicsDPS. I'd love some good documentation if you got it showing some actual math, though. ^_^

what? drgs are now good , all the derps rerolled NIN ,half the nins i see eat the floor more than DRG ever did , dont get me started on how many of them fail to use anything other than huton D:, raiton from time to time but thats it.... trick attack? whats that? i cant use it on combat sorry /facepalm....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

For example: You shouldn't be losing stacks on wild charge, if you know how to do your DPS in that phase (unless you get chosen for wild charge? Then you lose stacks I think. Not sure.)

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You can still save your stacks if you have shoulder tackle