Dungeon Creativity

There needs to be more random elements in dungeons.

Dungeon maps can shift. Mobs can change and jump out of nowhere depending on an innumerable amount of actions that you've taken. Killing a certain mob first and getting to a certain part of the zone at a certain period of the time, with a certain ilvl, while during a full moon, causes a change to the zone for the rest of the raid and the boss has different armor and a different set of attacks. Multiple that possibility in each area so that each dungeon has 3 possible maps that have so many prerequisites that it's nearly impossible to choose which you go down. It just happens.

Incorporate danger by "randomizing" elements that force you to pay attention. Provide thrill by making death a possibility and incorporating consequences for death.

I'll give it a name.
Final Fantasy XIV's Reaction Trigger Environment

I wouldn't mind variable paths through dungeons and random mob spawns. Would make things a bit more interesting, along with bosses pulling skills from a random pool at set intervals instead of a set rotation.

Brayflox Normal already had this and no one did it. You could save all the goblins and receive extra loot and no one cared. Also the head in Qarn Normal, it showed up during fights and it gave you extra loot if you killed it.

Interesting functions are already in the game. People don't care about them though.

Most of the dungeons follow the same exact pattern. Trash->First Boss->Trash->Second Boss->Trash->Last Boss. I think this repetitiviness is the main reason why the regular dungeons in this game are so bland. They need variety.

Less bosses and more problem solving? A full on boss run? Random variances in dungeons, i.e. the same dungeon having several different paths to progress? Something other thab simple tank and spank? Extreme dungeons with actual challengive mechanics and bosses?

I think at this point anything to make the dungeon runs less of a repetitive linear run would be good.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Brayflox Normal already had this and no one did it. You could save all the goblins and receive extra loot and no one cared. Also the head in Qarn Normal, it showed up during fights and it gave you extra loot if you killed it.

Interesting functions are already in the game. People don't care about them though.

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I'm talking more about non-predictable activity. Choosing to save goblins and get an extra chest isn't all that exciting >.>
Basically, you can't go "wtf, hit the panic button" from something you can expect.

I actually thought that the ring chest behind the Courel in Brayflox NM was one of the best elements of any dungeon. It had a chance to either drop a Potion (or whatever it was, can't remember) or it dropped a ring for any of the classes that was great until 40-45-ish. There was an extra set of trash to clear to get to it, but most groups actually chose to do it because on top of exp from the mobs it also had a useful little reward at the end. Wish there was more optional paths for small rewards like that in lvl 50 dungeons.

RE: Randomness is dungeons, I'd like to see it happen in 3.0 but I don't really know if the dev team expects their players to deal well with randomness. People have complained in the past about slight increases in difficulty from 4m dungeons, so unpredictable difficulty might be seen as too much in that direction. It would make the daily grind (if that remains) a lot more bearable, though, due to not having to do exactly the same dungeon every time.

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Originally Posted by MiiyoAoi

I'm talking more about non-predictable activity. Choosing to save goblins and get an extra chest isn't all that exciting >.>
Basically, you can't go "wtf, hit the panic button" from something you can expect.

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lol I can imagine all the QQ in the forums about a thing like that in dungeon XD. People don't like anything too hard lol.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Brayflox Normal already had this and no one did it. You could save all the goblins and receive extra loot and no one cared. Also the head in Qarn Normal, it showed up during fights and it gave you extra loot if you killed it.

Interesting functions are already in the game. People don't care about them though.

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I always destroyed the goblins and blew up the Qarn head lol... But I know not everyone did.

But that was not his intended request.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Most of the dungeons follow the same exact pattern. Trash->First Boss->Trash->Second Boss->Trash->Last Boss. I think this repetitiviness is the main reason why the regular dungeons in this game are so bland. They need variety.

Less bosses and more problem solving? A full on boss run? Random variances in dungeons, i.e. the same dungeon having several different paths to progress? Something other thab simple tank and spank? Extreme dungeons with actual challengive mechanics and bosses?

I think at this point anything to make the dungeon runs less of a repetitive linear run would be good.

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Yes prz ._. Its why truthfully no matter how many dungeons they add they all feel the same and people get bored grinding them only a day or so after their introduction. Trash > Boss > Trash > Boss > Trash > Boss. Only one that slightly changed this was Pharos.

I mean, compare it to an event like Neo-Nyzul Isle or something in XI, it was the same event, but each one was random... It helped make them at least more rewarding. Same could be said for Salvage, since it had problem solving (which took the community a long time to figure out) as well as variable paths for certain armor choices.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

lol I can imagine all the QQ in the forums about a thing like that in dungeon XD. People don't like anything too hard lol.

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We do have "hard" versions in the game. Random doesn't have to be hard. It's just doing away with predictability that keeps you engaged and more alert as "anything" can happen. Vanilla isn't always good though. FFXIV won't be enticing players to come from other games by playing things safe to cater to the supposed majority who don't like things hard.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

I mean, compare it to an event like Neo-Nyzul Isle or something in XI, it was the same event, but each one was random... It helped make them at least more rewarding. Same could be said for Salvage, since it had problem solving (which took the community a long time to figure out) as well as variable paths for certain armor choices.

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That's a great example. The allotted time was a big part of the challenge as well. Maybe giving more strict timing on some dungeons would be a way to add a sense of variety.

I do think random elements would increase the fun of a run to a point but people would cry if it's too tough for DF. I still remember the rage quit on PSirius because it was just easy to re-queue.

Bottom line is only two rewards players are really going to care about is time and increase percentage of RNG drops.

The Final Fantasy series got it right when they introduced a random hardmode dungeon for the endgame of the GBA re-release of FFI and II. Using the wave room at the end of AK HM as a model, I wish that FFXIV devs would implement a 4 man run that's Sudden Death. 3 rooms, click on the crystal to intiate each room, waves of random trash start to pop, each room drops a chest with ilvl specific loot(coke, peacock ore, darksteel etc. every 3 rooms, you have a random boss from the dungeons pop, he drop Ilvl appropriate gear. keep going till you die. Even Isync it to make it more of a challenge(eg. isync 70, the three rooms spawn trash from Pharos/WP/AK whatever; loot ranges from darklight items for seals/desynth, mats like darksteel/gold ore/ peacock etc, random boss is Siren, drops 3 random i60 items) then difficulty progresses, Higher trash, bosses, better loot drops etc, you die, you have to restart. random everytime. With all the 50+ dungeons/trials to draw from, loads of RNG trash waves to keep you hopping and the "Which boss will it be this round" feeling will keep it interesting. Throw a few acheivements(say for hitting the 100th room etc) and titles for bragging rights and I think it'd be a cool gem to grab a few friends and farm the crap out of. Just a thought.

I cared about the goblins in the earlier runs of that dungeon, now it's pointless to do so.
As for the overall problem, i find that lower level dungeons had a good level of difficulty, however once you got up to castrum and prae they some how became much easier than any dungeon before that and difficulty was placed into raids and trials.

It makes sense that trail/raid content is harder but the level 50 dungeons past early ampdaphor and wanderers follow much of the same pattern we've been getting in patches and I hope we get some more variety in the expac.

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Originally Posted by MiiyoAoi

There needs to be more random elements in dungeons.

Dungeon maps can shift. Mobs can change and jump out of nowhere depending on an innumerable amount of actions that you've taken. Killing a certain mob first and getting to a certain part of the zone at a certain period of the time, with a certain ilvl, while during a full moon, causes a change to the zone for the rest of the raid and the boss has different armor and a different set of attacks. Multiple that possibility in each area so that each dungeon has 3 possible maps that have so many prerequisites that it's nearly impossible to choose which you go down. It just happens.

Incorporate danger by "randomizing" elements that force you to pay attention. Provide thrill by making death a possibility and incorporating consequences for death.

I'll give it a name.
Final Fantasy XIV's Reaction Trigger Environment

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Please no more "RNG"-based elements. Two things we stopped seeing in most games: Random battles, and "unavoidable [undefeatable without a 30 hour grind] battles" because those were both annoying and frustrating if you got that world-killer type of random battle and you hadn't saved in an hour.
Like each dungeon needs it's "unique" element, even the "hard" and "extreme" versions are not just "buffed up mobs." And the dungeons are different depending on the time of day, just not in any practical sense other than the lighting.

Where FFXIV could improve is more contextually-aware combat. Instead of always having 1 X and 2 Y mobs, have the 2 Y be different mobs with strenghts/weaknesses complement what the party makeup is. This way there's less facerolly trash mobs. This is just one element.

Another element sorely lacking is "party needs to split up", we've seen this in the Raid's, but not with light parties. Remember the final dungeon in FF6? I'd love to see something like that again.

We also need at least one "outdoor" dungeon type. Right now there aren't any. By outdoor dungeon, I mean you solve the puzzles to get through it independently from the "boss room"'s which are just trials in the context of FFXIV. Like, a lore-sensitive puzzle, where if you paid attention to the storyline that you can't just multiple-guess through. Failing a chain of puzzles takes you back to the entrance to try again. The closest thing we've had to this was the Hildibrand storyline.

I have to agree. FF14 is so tightly controlled that you rarely get to have any chaotic moments. From the dungeons to the jobs to the abilities they use, everything is about minimizing game / sequence breaking as much as possible.

In all the dungeons, only a few have a wandering patrol (of one monster, at that) that may show up and be like "Hey, room for one more?")
In all the dungeons, there's basically one path. One path with a couple side paths that have a nifty X-potion chest or 981 Grand Company Seals.
It's like being the pyro where your only purpose is W + M1.

That being said, I think a 'randomized' dungeon should be its own feature, rather than something to incorporate into every dungeon. Throw an option into the Duty Finder that has progressively harder areas that you clear with a group, with a randomized layout, goal, and enemy patrols each time.

Call it a Greater Rift if you will.

:3

dungeons are way too faceroll, they are just tank n spank.....needs to be more challenging imo, a bit harder, more use of CC, black/white mages have sleep...hardly ever used!

needs to be like AV when your lvl49 with lvl49 gear....that was a good challenge

I'm not equating RNG to difficulty, entirely. I think that should be one of the elements, but what I am proposing is shock value. When you're falling asleep due to your body shutting down, shock wakes you up. An unexpected element intrudes when your guard is down and causes your attention and your body to react. That can't happen when you know exactly what to expect because once you've done a dungeon once, you can expected very little, if any, variation from then on.

Think of games that you played years ago that you don't anymore due to the fact that you know exactly what to expect, and other than nostalgia, the thrill isn't the same because you know what's going to happen.

Different paths would make things a bit more fun, but also if boosts went to the trash mobs also. Make it real deadly to mass pull, but cut down on the amount of mobs in there. The new ones aren't that bad though.

I think it would be fun to do something along the lines of going down another path, fighting a harder mini boss and that fight causes the environment to change. A bit of poison...plumes, maybe a fun dive bomb here and there. I also think mob buffs should stack and be aoe. The ones in quarn for example have an attack buff..make that aoe and stackable. Then start making mob combinations that would be difficult, but deadly if you decided to mass pull to the door.

But like others said there have been things that you could do for extra rewards, still those rewards were so small it didn't matter. You would have to do something more for people to take a harder route. Or maybe monster abilities that are rare for them to use that can change the tide of things......give the beastmen trash mobs limit breaks! Oh that would be horrible..lol

For me I just hope they continue the dialogue for the monsters. Storyline that make no difference but makes it fun..I always wanted to save those goblins. Little things like that I love, like doing the WP hard mode. I see the chats from the tonberries "Are you here to help us?" "Yes I $*^&ing am!" /cleric stance. Or that trash talking jerk of a mob in the lost city...he always dies first...

Think SE could just be more creative with their enemy design, instead of palette swapped versions of everything, how about leader versions that give buffs to their allies? Adding to that they could order their troops to attack the target they deem the highest risk ( sorry healers). Btw im not against the idea of random enemy placement, just figure if we want more challenge then the same adds in a different order, while not a bd idea, doesn't really fit the definition of creativity

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Brayflox Normal already had this and no one did it. You could save all the goblins and receive extra loot and no one cared. Also the head in Qarn Normal, it showed up during fights and it gave you extra loot if you killed it.

Interesting functions are already in the game. People don't care about them though.

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Those are interesting dungeon gimmicks, but what are missing are interesting enemy gimmicks. Every fight in every dungeon is identical to another. Every single one.

There are no healing mobs, or buff mobs, or formations, or room hazards, or anything. It's just 3 group after 3 group of enemies with overly long health bars that have no capability whatsoever of endangering the tank unless he pulls more than he should have. The only time these dungeons are difficult is if you're playing without a tank class or heal class, or if the tank/healer just sucks. If they're even remotely good at their job, most dungeons are harmless.

The funny part though, is that dungeons don't necessarily have to be difficult to be fun. They just have to not be repetitive and grindy. There are a VERY few amount of enemies that encourage different play, like the Final Sting bee in quarn. But like 90% of all the unique battle mechanics are shoveled into the dungeon bosses.