Ascians

While it may be obvious to some, others might not notice that Ascians’ names, glyphs and, in some cases, abilities tie them to characters or enemies in past Final Fantasy titles. Here, I’ll be pointing out what I know of these links for further speculation and reference.

Lahabrea


http://www.animeclick.it/prove/upload/img/News38415.jpg

In a vision received from Hydaelyn in the opening sequence of A Realm Reborn, we encounter our first Ascian, Lahabrea. If you played FFXII, you may recall that name being used for the light scion (Abyssal Celebrant) opposite Mateus (the Corrupt).

When our XIV Lahabrea taps into his power, a glyph appears over his mask, and sure enough, it bears a striking resemblance to the XII glyph of Mateus.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...d_Lahabrea.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/1hR3Zts.png




Nabriales


http://ff14.tabibun.net/npc/img/npc/1342_m.jpg

Like Lahabrea, the name “Nabriales” also refers to a light scion (the Majestic) from FFXII with his glyph matching that of the dark counterpart, Cúchulainn (the Impure).

http://i.imgur.com/PvFZjJy.jpghttp://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...00/Glyph_8.jpg




Elidibus


http://i.imgur.com/ss1YeM0.png

Elidibus looks just like the other Ascians, complete with personalized red mask, but his robes are white. He also states that he’s Zodiark’s emissary and he seems far less hostile and more diplomatic compared to the black-robed bunch.

http://i.imgur.com/Hap9oqy.png

The only other mention of the name Elidibus was in Final Fantasy Tactics, in which he was an optional boss who holds the Serpentarius Zodiac Stone, transforming into a Lucavi (demon) who possesses an ability titled “Zodiark”. It’s also noted that Elidibus in FFT doesn’t seem to have affiliation with the other Lucavi, sharing no interest in reviving their leader, Ultima, which requires an enormous amount of blood be spilled.

This is somewhat reflected in how Elidibus interacts with the other Ascians in XIV. While they all share the same goal, it seems he's privy to Zodiark's plan and doesn't fully disclose it with the others. He's above them - Zodiark's chosen. This seems to be cause for some friction between himself and the more aggressive types: Lahabrea and Nabriales; who seek to best Elidibus somehow and claim his spot as Zodiark's right hand.





Although we don’t see the glyphs, the naming scheme continues for Pashtarot (Zeromus) and Igeyorhm (Shemhazai), who are seen in a short clip at the end of the 2.0 storyline, and Emmerololth (Famfrit) and Altima (Ultima? Sabik?) at the end of the quest "What Little Gods are Made of".

Pashtarot


http://i.imgur.com/d5hWeT4.png




Igeyorhm


http://i.imgur.com/BtQLrfE.png




Emmerololth


http://i.imgur.com/aiA61iq.png




Altima


http://i.imgur.com/z6xsIRa.png




Unknown Ascian #1



http://i.imgur.com/boSsLrc.jpg

You may remember defeating this particular Ascian and his gargoyle minion around level 15. Anyway, what’s interesting here is the glyph he displays – it looks as though it may belong to Zodiark himself.

http://i.imgur.com/KlpVjjO.pnghttp://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2..._Glyph_Art.jpg

But it couldn’t possibly be Zodiark, could it? Perhaps all black-masked Ascians bear this mark for lack of their own primordial identity…

Unknown Ascian #2

This Ascian (who I’m naming Loghrif, the Transcendent) taught Tristan Nightflicker, a dark Summoner, to summon Belias-Egi during the Summoner storyline. No name or glyph is seen here, though I’d like to think there’s some connection between the Egi and the keeper of its knowledge. Both Belias from XII and Belias-Egi in XIV use the ability “Painflare”.

Travanchet

Last, and probably least, is Travanchet. Travanchet is the main antagonist in early XIV 1.0 for Lominsans, teaming up with the Sahagin in a play for a “key” found on the mysterious isle of Seal Rock. Travanchet can be counted among the Ascians, as the word “ascian” can be translated to “without shadow” and it was made obvious in the cutscenes that Travanchet lacks one himself. Also, the song “without shadow” can be heard whenever an Ascian, including Travanchet, appears on-screen.

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Zitat von StarDrake

At the NAFanfest they more or less confirmed that Travanchet was dropped entirely. He was going to be part of what seemed to be a much slower build-up to the reveal of what the Ascians were - like we'd get full answers about that at the *end* of 1.x or somesuch.

With the revised plot, the lore and story team decided to massively accelerate a couple of reveals, including going straight to dealing with the Ascian overlords and the true nature of Dalamud and whatnot. Travanchet is more or less pointless at this juncture (it's insinuated he was one of those lesser Ascians who doesn't even have a fancy mask) and there's no real point in going back to him. Might be a bummer for some folks, but them's the breaks.

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Anything missed / that you would add here?

If not, let’s get some discussion going. What do you make of these connections?

SE confirmed long ago there is no actual direct link with FFXII though or any other FF game - the use of those names are simply fanservice referencing and not a hint of something far deeper, as revealed by Bayohne in this old thread which seems to have disappeared (luckily I copied and pasted the quote from it for posterity):

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Q55: There are a lot of names from Ivalice such as Dalmasca, Belias, and Zodiak that have been mentioned, is there some connection between Hydaelyn and Ivalice?

A55: To be absolutely clear, there is no connection between FFXIV’s Hydaelyn and FFXII’s Ivalice. Likewise there is no connection with FFXI’s Vana’diel. Each are their own individual world. Based on this, there are connections between the things that appear in the world, and we’ll be revealing more in the future.

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Basically, the Ascian names are simply another example of referencing for nostalgia purposes to past FF games without being a direct connection or crossover, like the Crystal Tower or magitek armour. In fact the only real direct crossovers in FFXIV with another FF game are of course, Lightning, Shantotto and Gilgamesh's appearences - Cloud's Advent Children veteran reward costume has no actual lore explanation however from what I'm aware.

Oh, no, maybe I should've clarified - There's no way the worlds are connected, otherwise every allusion would have to fill the same role in which it was previously seen, which the Asicans do not. However, the fact that their likeness' are mirrored could give us hints at what to expect from their future involvement.

Personally, I see the Ascians' "dark scion" alter egos as potential primals, and wouldn't be all that surprised to find that each Ascian has this power sealed within them. It could explain how, say, "Loghrif" teaches Tristan to summon his primal form, Belias, as an Egi. Elidibus' implementation also makes sense given his previous incarnation - of the Ascians but not among the Ascians.

I thought it was a cool idea worth some discussion and speculation, if no one else does, that's fine, just let this thread drift into obscurity. :)

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Zitat von treuhavik

If your starting city-state is Limsa Lominsa you may remember defeating this particular Ascian and his gargoyle minion in a lower level battle at Swiftperch. What’s interesting here is the glyph he displays – it looks as though it may belong to Zodiark himself.

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Same guy shows up in Gridania, so most likely shows up in Ul'dah as well. I'd tentatively say you're probably right about black-mask Ascians.

I can't find the cutscene, but I distinctly remember one where we see all the Ascians having a meeting in the Crysalis. In this cutscene we see more Ascians that are named after Scions of Light. There is also one named Altima who is presumably standing in for the Esper Ultima (since that name had already been used).

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Zitat von DarthSanguine

I can't find the cutscene, but I distinctly remember one where we see all the Ascians having a meeting in the Crysalis. In this cutscene we see more Ascians that are named after Scions of Light. There is also one named Altima who is presumably standing in for the Esper Ultima (since that name had already been used).

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Final scene of the 2.3 main quest.

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Zitat von lololink

Final scene of the 2.3 main quest.

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Do you have the quest name or link for that?

EDIT: The last quest (which leads to the last scene) of 2.3 is "Brave New Companions" and ends showing Lahabrea and Elidibus on either side of the Ishgardian throne.

Well I said that because the last scene is usually ascian plotting in the dark ( Insert evil laugh ) scene, let me check again in the inn...
Last scene of "What Little Gods Are Made Of".

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Zitat von lololink

Last scene of "What Little Gods Are Made Of".

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Thanks! I had nearly forgotten this CS in its entirety. I'll plug Emmerololth and Altima in the OP.

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Zitat von DarthSanguine

There is also one named Altima who is presumably standing in for the Esper Ultima (since that name had already been used).

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It seems Altima was an alternate name of Ultima in Final Fantasy Tactics. This makes Altima the only other one (so far) besides Elidibus to be found outside of XII. Even more interesting is that in neither game does Ultima/Altima have a contrasting entity. However, if Altima wants to fit in with the rest of the Ascians, we'll have to implant one, won't we?

...How's Sabik sound? ;)

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Zitat von treuhavik

It seems Altima was an alternate name of Ultima in Final Fantasy Tactics. This makes Altima the only other one (so far) besides Elidibus to be found outside of XII. Even more interesting is that in neither game does Ultima/Altima have a contrasting entity. However, if Altima wants to fit in with the rest of the Ascians, we'll have to implant one, won't we?

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Altima is just Ultima written in japanese pronounciation actually, in french she is even named Ultima.
Ultima and Zodiark are the only ones that don't have an opposite so they had to find another one, they picked Elidibus as he summons Zodiark in Tactic advance.

Don't ask me where this connection goes, but something I pointed out in another thread:
The Elidibus in Tactics represents Serpentarius / Ophiuchus as OP pointed out (13th Zodiac, Zodiark based on Ivalice espers). Another name for this zodiac sign is Sabik, named after one of the stars in its constellation. Ultima Weapon is powered by an Ascian device known as the "Heart of Sabik".

Food for thought!

But based on the Sabik-Ophiuchus association I don't believe the name Sabik is related to Altima. Ultima was the representation of our Virgo I believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eta_Ophiuchi

"Eta Ophiuchi, also known as η Oph or η Ophiuchi, is a star in the constellation Ophiuchus. It has the traditional name Sabik."
It's also the brightest star of that zodiac constellation.

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Zitat von Aeliott

Sabik

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Ah, I remember your post in the card descriptions thread now, +1.

Really, it was just connecting Ultima Weapon with Altima, didn't think to dig much on Sabik, lol. This thread is all about wild speculation anyway, right? :P

To take things further, Ultima weapon has the heart of Sabik. Sabik is a star within the ophiucus (snake....zodiark) system. It means "one who comes 1st" now with Omega (meaning last)weapon confirmed I think once activated and fire a spell that will be the impetus for Zodiark to finally be released. After all, once Ultma was fired that was the beginning of Hydealyn's decline.

You know, it wouldn't surprise me to find out the Asicans are influencing Teledji as well, if only just to have Omega Weapon out and about, causing all kinds of chaos.

http://i.imgur.com/VVCgsNn.png

Thought id just put this here :) i enjoy this though!

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Zitat von QuinceTaru

enjoy!

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Haha Thanks.

But srsly... IT'S ALWAYS ASCIANS! *tightens darksteelfoil hat* @.@;

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Zitat von Aeliott

But based on the Sabik-Ophiuchus association I don't believe the name Sabik is related to Altima. Ultima was the representation of our Virgo I believe.

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Virgo stone was St. Ajora, iirc. Ultima didn't really have a connection to the zodiac in FFT. You had the Ultima Demons in service to various Lucavi, and you had Elmdore's assassins who could cast the spell Ultima, but that was pretty much it as far as I recall.

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Zitat von Viridiana

Virgo stone was St. Ajora, iirc. Ultima didn't really have a connection to the zodiac in FFT. You had the Ultima Demons in service to various Lucavi, and you had Elmdore's assassins who could cast the spell Ultima, but that was pretty much it as far as I recall.

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Ah, that's right. As much as I love Tactics I haven't played in yonks :P I believe Ultima was intended to be the Virgo equivalent in FFXII at least

Funny thing, I was comparing that gathering scene in both, english and japanese, and the case of the Ascian Altima is an interesting one...

Since there wasn't any equivalent for "Ultima the High Seraph" (unlike the rest, minus Zodiark), its Ascian counter-part ended up being called "Altima".
On the flip-side, and for the japanese version, since Ultima is spelled "Arutema" (アルテマ), its Ascian counter-part ended up being called "Urutema" (ウルテマ).

It's interesting to see how that works...

Speaking of Ascian symbols, I like how Igeyohrm's mask has an arrowhead in the middle on top of Shemhazai's glyph.

Leviathan's eye! I had completely forgotten about this thread. This stuff is so past it's expiration, I don't know where to begin, but I'm of the mind now that, while interesting, the glyphs hold no significance other than signifying an Ascian's 'combat stance'.

A'ight, since this has already been revived I'll post this. Yoshida did another interview with Famitsu, of note:

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Regarding the main story:
With Nidhogg's roar still being effective, the dragonsong war is not truly over and this will be the focus in the following patches.
In the following patch 3.x series, the reason why Asciens exist and what the WoD trully is will be revealed. 4.0's flow will move towards a different route.(Asciens and Dark existences will still be there as a back bone but it will be an independant story just like heavensward )

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...sus_interview/

Come to think of it, we don't really have a reason why ascians are around and doing things. They better have a good reason to elevate them past "card carrying celestial troll."(better get that SE legal team, elidibus!)

One thing I've been thinking about since completing the MSQ is that in the span of a few months, 3 high-ranked Ascians have been permakilled. There's a lot of this setting's history that has yet to be fleshed out, but based on Elibidus' reaction in the post-credit roll in 2.55 and 3.0, this is at most a remarkably rare occurrence, and perhaps never even happened before (let alone three times).

So other than the lesser folk that are basically Ascian pawns we can assume then that there are 9 main Ascians left, 10 if you want to include Edilbus (I probably spelled that wrong). Makes me wonder just how far we'll get in killing them off before they really try and counter attack. At this point simply helping beast tribes unleash primals obviously haven't been all too effective in dispatching us let alone allowing Zodiark to be revived. So, yeah, wonder how long it'll be before however many Ascians are left (whether all 9-10 now or however many there's left in future content) come and simply try and strike us down or just insta-teleport the WoD in front of us to take us out.

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Unknown Ascian #2

This Ascian (who I’m naming Loghrif, the Transcendent) taught Tristan Nightflicker, a dark Summoner, to summon Belias-Egi during the Summoner storyline. No name or glyph is seen here, though I’d like to think there’s some connection between the Egi and the keeper of its knowledge. Both Belias from XII and Belias-Egi in XIV use the ability “Painflare”.

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I might as well take the opportunity to point out that you've guessed wrong above. The Ascian involved in the summoner storyline is nameless. Or rather, he's known only as the Ascian of the Twelfth Chalice, and he's one of Lahabrea's servants, along with the Ascians of the Twelfth Staff, the Twelfth Sword and the Twelfth Pentacle.

We first met the Twelfth Sword and Twelfth Staff way back in story-mode Haukke Manor, when they openly told the WoL that they were merely there "to take the measure" of his/her strength for Lahabrea.

All four servants would turn up in the Heavensward summoner storyline.

More importantly, during the storyline, Y'mhitra deduced that the black-masked Ascians belonged to a lower-tier of Paragons, and were more vulnerable to destruction than their red-veiled masters.

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According to the Scions and their research, the Paragons are effectively immortal. They are said to be aetherial entitities with no physical form of their own, instead possessing mortal host after mortal host in an endless procession down the ages...

But once [the WoL] acquired the Dreadwyrm Trance, the haste with which the Ascian (of the Twelfth Chalice) withdrew did not seem to me the action of a being who harbours no fear of death.

Thus do I pose the question: Could it be that the Twelfth Chalice and his black-masked brethen are not as practiced in the art of possession as their red-veiled masters?

At the time of the battle, our bodies were the only available hosts nearby. Assuming that he also lacks his superiors' facility to flee to the space betwixt worlds, I suspect that our foe's sudden cowardice stemmed from an inability to force his soul into our living vessels.

...if we are able to lure the Twelfth Chalice to a location devoid of potential hosts, then we might succeed in destroying him for good...

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Suffice to say that, by the end of the Heavensward summoner quest line, there's another very clear reason for Elidibus to be wary of the WoL's growing power.

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Zitat von TinyRedLeaf

I might as well take the opportunity to point out that you've guessed wrong above.

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Oh man, the number of wrong assumptions I made half a year ago are incalculable, lol. But, hey, I'm glad to see that we were on the right track with the blackmasks!


EDIT: As much as I'd love to dig around for all current Ascian juiciness and get this thread updated...

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Zitat von Minfilia

the past several moons have seen the hill of reports on my desk grow into a veritable mountain.

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And sorting out the rest of these version 1.0-1.23 quests will still have me busy for quite some time, unfortunately.

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I might as well take the opportunity to point out that you've guessed wrong above. The Ascian involved in the summoner storyline is nameless. Or rather, he's known only as the Ascian of the Twelfth Chalice, and he's one of Lahabrea's servants, along with the Ascians of the Twelfth Staff, the Twelfth Sword and the Twelfth Pentacle.

We first met the Twelfth Sword and Twelfth Staff way back in story-mode Haukke Manor, when they openly told the WoL that they were merely there "to take the measure" of his/her strength for Lahabrea.

All four servants would turn up in the Heavensward summoner storyline.

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Hmm…Even with the Sword and Staff being Lahabrea's underlings, can we be certain that the Chalice and Pentacle are his as well? I haven't done post-50 SMN story, so I wouldn't know if there's text you haven't quoted that supplies the answer (and xivdb no longer has quest text to check). Basically, I'm assuming that the "Numbered Item" refers to a hierarchy, but does the number determine the leading named Ascian, or does the item? Are the Twelfth X's all Lahabrea's, or are all the Swords and Staves? Or, indeed, only one of the two between Sword and Staff, with the other being a different Ascian lending his underling for a mission?

So why isn't Lahabrea able to flee when Thordan attacks him?

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Zitat von SirPhoebos

So why isn't Lahabrea able to flee when Thordan attacks him?

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Weakened too much from his battle with the Warrior of Light? There isn't a super good reason, but we know Ascians are able to teleport in/out of that part of the Flagship so it isn't some kind of Allagan anti-teleport manuever. Why did Ascian prime disappear/teleport away only to return and split? There doesn't seem to be a good reason-- maybe Hydaelyn forces their hand somehow (they curse Hydaelyn before teleporting away, but that could mean almost anything given context)

It looks like there's some sort of charge-up time for them to flee to the Aetherial Rift, as Igeyorhm has enough time to publicly announce her intent to do so before we chuck the super rare and valuable white auracite at her.

(Also why is Nidhogg's left eye out of aether after that?? I guess the years of being used to channel the Azure Dragoon's power or something? The battle with Nidhogg/Azys Lla barrier I guess too, but man it seems a little ridiculous the Eye is stated to be so powerful but then is so quickly spent. It makes the Ascians/Allagans seem way stronger than dragons which isn't something I really got before as it took them teaming up to subdue Meracydia)

Thordan's bemoaning our use of "mortal contrivances" while simultaneously then yelling at Lahabrea for underestimating mortals bothers me as well but w/e w/e I'm off track

tl;dr: There's no good reason Lahabrea didn't flee. The best you could argue is that he didn't have enough stamina/power/Ascian juice left to do so, but Igeyorhm was about to do flee sooooooo yeah

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Zitat von Viridiana

Basically, I'm assuming that the "Numbered Item" refers to a hierarchy, but does the number determine the leading named Ascian, or does the item? Are the Twelfth X's all Lahabrea's, or are all the Swords and Staves? Or, indeed, only one of the two between Sword and Staff, with the other being a different Ascian lending his underling for a mission?

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12th seems to refer to the number in the Zodiac that they serve. Lahabrea, who represents Pisces, would be master of the 12th.

Belated edit: It also is why Chalice goes on and on about how the "waters are infinite." In Astrology, Pisces is a member of the watery triad/trigon along with Cancer (Pashtarot) and Scorpio (Nabriales).

What was most interesting to me about the SMN quest was the comment that Lahabrea seemed to have "uplifted" the lower Ascians. I believe that's the exact term they used. There's obviously nowhere near enough information to base any accurate assumptions on it, but it does make me incredibly curious.

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Zitat von Viridiana

Are the Twelfth X's all Lahabrea's, or are all the Swords and Staves? Or, indeed, only one of the two between Sword and Staff, with the other being a different Ascian lending his underling for a mission?

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I haven't done the post-50 SMN stuff either, but...

I would theorize that the "Twelfth X" Ascians are all Lahabrea's underlings. This ties into the Zodiac theme the Ascians derive from the Ivalice mythos. Lahabrea, in terms of the Zodiac, represents Pisces, the twelfth Zodiac Sign, so all of his underlings would be "Twelfth X." By that same token, all of Nabriales' Black Masks would be "Eighth X" and Igeyorhm "Ninth X," but without anything to verify this it's just a theory...

EDIT
Beat to the punch...

On the other hand, the lesser Ascians seem to be named after the Minor Arcana. Not sure if anyone pointed this out yet.

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So why isn't Lahabrea able to flee when Thordan attacks him?

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Probably because we beat him to within an inch of his life beforehand? Ascians can teleport, but when Igeyorhm tries to do so she takes time to do it - suggesting that, when weakened, Ascians can't instantly teleport. While they do possess pseudo-immortality, the Ascians still have to act in real time; if they could instantly teleport at any time they would be completely invincible without a mortal vessel, and none of them could ever possibly be killed. Nabriales and Igeyorhm would just warp away when we throw the White Auracite at them, Lahabrea would just warp away when King Thordan is about to kill him, and we'd never be rid of the headache.

It's either that or for story purposes.

I wouldn't necessarily say that we don't have anything to verify the theory that Xth represents the Ascian they serve. Chalice's dialogue has lots of watery puns, despite Lahabrea being fire-based in XIV. With higher servants not matching the master's element, but rather his "trigon", that absolutely puts 12th under Pisces, Cancer, or Scorpio as well for reasons I edited into my post up there. It doesn't completely cement it, but it does add to its defense.

Edit: And this is, of course, ignoring that they openly say they serve Lahabrea.

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Zitat von CyrilLucifer

I wouldn't necessarily say that we don't have anything to verify the theory that Xth represents the Ascian they serve. Chalice's dialogue has lots of watery puns, despite Lahabrea being fire-based. With the servants not matching the master's element, but rather his "trigon", that absolutely puts 12th under Pisces, Cancer, or Scorpio as well for reasons I edited into my post up there.

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Since when has Lahabrea been fire-based?

In the Ivalice mythos, Mateus is the ice esper. (Water is a very related element.) During the battle with the Ascian Prime, it uses both Ice and Fire moves; you could say the Fire is from Igeyorhm (who has the poorly defined element of "soul" in Ivalice mythos), while the Ice fits right in with Lahabrea's connection to Mateus. Additionally, as you pointed out, Pisces is one of the three Water-elemental Zodiac Signs, so the Ascian of the Twelfth Chalice making water puns is to be expected. Additionally, given the Chalice is the Water-aligned suit of the Minor Arcana (which the lesser Ascians seem to take their names from), this only makes more sense.

It seems to work differently in XIV than Ivalice. Gameplay-wise, Lahabrea was definitely, absolutely sticking to using Dark and Fire elemental magic in the Research Facility. Same with Igeyorhm using Dark and Ice and Nabriales with Dark and Earth in their battles. That was basically the entire point of the two working together was that their elements in-battle contrasted. That's why you attack Igeyorhm first: her freezing can be really, really annoying if you don't.

It was a really weird moment for me seeing him having that focus on fire because, logically based on Ivalice lore and astrology, he shouldn't have been. It also shows that we can't follow Ivalice completely, despite it being a backbone.

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Zitat von Viridiana

Hmm…Even with the Sword and Staff being Lahabrea's underlings, can we be certain that the Chalice and Pentacle are his as well?

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Yes, we can be very sure that the quartet of "Twelfth" Ascians are Lahabrea's minions.

During their confrontation with the WoL in the summoner storyline, the Twelfth Pentacle says: "You have earned the ire of Lahabrea's most loyal servants."

I don't know, however, if that implies there are other underlings beyond the Twelfth Chalice, Sword, Staff and Pentacle. (Thanks to Cilia, for pointing out that these are the four suits of the Minor Arcana. I didn't notice that.)

I don't recall that Y'mhitra said anything about Lahabrea "uplifting" his minions, though. But, then again, I didn't record verbatim everything that was said during the quest line, so I may have just missed it.

Now one big question: Was the Ascian of the Twelth Pentacle both the Masked Mage we face early on and Travanchet?

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Zitat von TinyRedLeaf

Yes, we can be very sure that the quartet of "Twelfth" Ascians are Lahabrea's minions.
I don't recall that Y'mhitra said anything about Lahabrea "uplifting" his minions, though. But, then again, I didn't record verbatim everything that was said during the quest line, so I may have just missed it.

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No, it was actually the Ascians themselves that say that. Which is why it interests me.

I just ran the ARF myself to verify that Lahabrea uses fire spells... yep, he totally does. Well, that's cool. I don't mind; in fact, I'd rather not have everything be predictable by past games.

Anyway, regarding the Ascian of the Twelfth Chalice's water puns... Even if Lahabrea isn't the "ice Ascian," he's still linked to Pisces though Mateus, which is a water-aligned Zodiac sign. His personal Minor Arcana, the Chalice, is also the Minor Arcana of water, so his water puns aren't out of place.