Pro tip: Do NOT expect new player to get tips from the forums

This should be self-explanatory. You can not expect new and newer player to know what they do not know yet, anymore that you can push a string.

In response to:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...a-dungeon-rant

What you can do is help, teach, and guide new players when you meet them. Be inclusive and make adjustment to accommodate them. Some of them on PS3/4 may not even have a keyboard and can't chat or chat response comes like 2 minutes later.

Mindless zerging speed run = 0 challange.

Teaching someone new how to be better = Hardcore because I bet most people cant even be bothered to try.

EDIT: I wanted to elaborate.

Communication is key, that is not really hard to debate. Absent that communication though, what can be done to help people understand whats going on or how can you help others succeed.

Observation. Say you tried to communicate, were met with silence, then proceeded to run as a speedrun. Then you die because Tank couldnt hold threat or DPS wasnt even there or not using AOE moves, or healer wasnt on the ball for healing. Isolate the issue then try to compensate, pull smaller groups, run as a normal run, hotbar an extra heal for emergency help. Party play is teamwork. The most experienced player in the group has a responsibility to assist their other members, condescending, rude, accusatory comments do not help.

We also need to keep in mind that there are a large portion of Console users that are a bit of an anomaly in the realm of MMO's, How many MMO's are there on consoles and how popular are they? Few and far between. Most Console users this is their first MMO, they may not be proficient with use of a controller, the menus, the subtleties of MMO "code of conduct" (You gotta at least watch a vid on a fight before doing it! Check out the forums! etc).

Gamepad play does not mean anything but most console users that are on a gamepad and may not have a keyboard. I know, personally, that I get really upset when I see someone berating another player because they are not performing to the expected level of the other player. Have a little consideration and show some humanity. there is another person on the other end of those pixels. People like the one in the thread mentioned in the OP is why I prefer to be in the party when my son plays. For the most part, people are impressed when they party with him saying that he did really well (I tell them Im training him so be patient) then at the end of the run I reveal that he did ok for a 9yo. but then you get the odd shining example of a human being who likes to berate others telling them to uninstall, they are the worst player they have ever seen, go kill yourself and other wonderful phrases i would rather not mention here.

Too often people forget their first time in a new kind of game, learning the ropes, how it felt to have that eureka moment when some part of the content finally made sense. Too often I see people who are so self absorbed they cant even contemplate putting themselves in someone elses shoes or even entertain the idea that not every player they run into is going to be as good as they are.

Honestly, I would rather play with a bad team that is losing all the time and eventually triumphs over the final boss and has fun than be in a dungeon where some asshat takes it upon themselves to demean other players for a simple mistake that didnt even kill anyone. So please, Don't be an asshat.

Any person that is into this game should be semi familiar with it's official forums. I'm not saying that they need to post daily, but perusing and skimming a few times a week will only help you. A) See some general census about what people are complaining about or happy about. And B) to occasionally discern some actual factual information that might not be so easy to find unless you were deliberately searching for it.

I would suggest all players, new and old, peruse through the forums to some degree. There are some jems in here certainly. I often find a lot of information I probably wouldn't have known about as soon as I had were it not for people on the forums. Granted there's a lot of BS to dig through when determining what is a useful/helpful/informative thread verses a complete waste of time. Generally speaking, the first page in a thread (if not the first post) will guide you as to if the whole thing is worth your time or not.

/shrug

Personally for me these forums have provided an enormous amount of information and insights. Sure, there's a lot of trolls and the like, useless/stupid posts but unless you check, however briefly, you never know.

I Disagree with you completely.

• I don't expect people to read the Forums.
• If I ask you a specific question, specifically, 'do you need extra help / do you need me to slow down / etc / etc' and the answer is yes, I need you to tell me. I'm not psychic. Much like dealing with a person with either a physical or mental handicap, you do not talk to them as though they are handicapped. If they can't keep up or are struggling, then you offer help. Otherwise you run the risk of being patronizing / degrading.
• Stop making excuses for people with Gamepads. I ALWAYS Use a gamepad, and emote /yes or /no is NOT Difficult. It does not take 2 minutes. New players who are struggling in particular, AND are using gamepads without keyboards, an and should be encouraged to write a macro that says as much.

This last point is similar to the fact that I speed Run, on a game pad. [NVIDIA Shield Portable] [PS3] [PS4]
I have a macro that says as much, and suggests to people, that if they think I should, or prefer I slow down, to please ask, and I'm glad to do so.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Honestly, new players can only benefit from reading up on the forums here and there. I don't expect any of them to bother with "General Discussion" but rotations and such are best learned through the forums or reddit. Speaking with the community and learning about the game without having someone hold your hand is every individual player's responsibility.

If I want to be an effective DPS, I'm not going to feel I'm owed an explanation by someone in game. I'm going to go to a forum. Basically, any information that isn't outright explained in the game is something to go to a forum or community page for.

No NPC explains rotations or speedruns. They don't explain the expectations that are upon me as a player in a certain role. Please be proactive in your gaming existence on FFXIV and educate yourself.

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You bring up good points, but I don't expect this from new players. I have this expectation from Raiders only. Not everybody is remotely close to caring about optimal rotations. Most people want to do enough DPS to get by. You know what? I'm OK with that.

Honestly, new players can only benefit from reading up on the forums here and there. I don't expect any of them to bother with "General Discussion" but rotations and such are best learned through the forums or reddit. Speaking with the community and learning about the game without having someone hold your hand is every individual player's responsibility.

If I want to be an effective DPS, I'm not going to feel I'm owed an explanation by someone in game. I'm going to go to a forum. Basically, any information that isn't outright explained in the game is something to go to a forum or community page for.

No NPC explains rotations or speedruns. They don't explain the expectations that are upon me as a player in a certain role. Please be proactive in your gaming existence on FFXIV and educate yourself.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

This should be self-explanatory. You can not expect new and newer player to know what they do not know yet, anymore that you can push a string.

In response to:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...a-dungeon-rant

What you can do is help, teach, and guide new players when you meet them. Be inclusive and make adjustment to accommodate them. Some of them on PS3/4 may not even have a keyboard and can't chat or chat response comes like 2 minutes later.

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Well this is a silly response then. The person who made that thread only asked that they make it known that the new players are in the experience for the first time and he'd alter his play style accordingly. Why would someone ask the party if someone was new if it wasn't to teach or guide them? I doubt he'd ask who was new only to then continue on with a speedrun.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

... Much like dealing with a person with either a physical or mental handicap, you do not talk to them as though they are handicapped. If they can't keep up or are struggling, then you offer help. Otherwise you run the risk of being patronizing / degrading.....

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Serisouly? You really want to go there? Being considerate and accommodating is not being patronizing or degrading. Leave that soccer ball in the hallway to trip up the blind person or walking fast up the stairs with someone on a wheelchair is just outright mean. And btw outright asking people if they are new and demanding that they respond is patronizing and degrading.

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Originally Posted by Kidblinks

.. I doubt he'd ask who was new only to then continue on with a speedrun.

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Obviously you can't read. But that is exactly what is assumed. The assumption is wrong that a non-response means it is ok to continue to speed run is wrong. New players may not even know how to use emotes much less have macros in place. I've seen new FC member respond 2 minutes later because they are pecking it out on their PS3/4. You need to be ready and willing to accommodate them, and be in the mindset that you sense their obstacles even before they do.

And one of the obstacle is that they most likely do not know that the forums exist. So the pro tip is for experienced player (pros so to speak) and that you need to be ready to accommodate whatever limitations they have and this should be plain and obvious and self-explanatory. This should be the default position and not expect the new/newer players to have to do anything special.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

...Honestly, new players can only benefit from reading up on the forums here and there. ....

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I was new at one time and the forums have helped, but it can make do with a lot less new player bashing. And blaming new players for wipes to speedruns because they did not responding is just one more way they are bashing new players. This is not acceptable.

I 100% agree expecting people to use the forums if they are new to dungeons is silly.

I expect them to use youtube where they can get a visual rundown.
If you have special needs make a pf.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Serisouly? You really want to go there? Being considerate and accommodating is not being patronizing or degrading. Leave that soccer ball in the hallway to trip up the blind person or walking fast up the stairs with someone on a wheelchair is just outright mean. And btw outright asking people if they are new and demanding that they respond is patronizing and degrading.

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If you bothered to read and understand what he wrote, he was saying that you don't talk down to new people and that you respect them. He's saying that the more they struggle, the more he's willing to assist. He's also saying that if they are silent, you can't do anything to assist them because they essentially won't help you help them. He's asking for them to be decent human beings and when they are spoken to, to respond back with something. You completely missed his point.

He's also saying that people defending them by saying, "Ooooh! But he's on gamepad and he can't communicate." isn't a good enough excuse because he himself has learned how to communicate effectively given his tools.

Misen, I agree with your points, honestly. I can only speak from personal experience and I wanted to know what to do to not be a moron so I checked the forums out and saw what was the norm.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

they are bashing new players. This is not acceptable.

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They? You mean the "they" that also bash the veteran players about not completely available? The casual and the harcore bash each other all the time. It's not acceptable no matter what.
If I see a new player message in harder content, I'm gonna ask who it is because I need to know who to instruct. If they stand there and don't bother to explain anything and not even bother with a " / " in party chat, then I'm sorry, my patience will naturally start to wear thin. Help me by doing something as simple as answering a question.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

New players may not even know how to use emotes much less have macros in place.

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What are you even talking about?

As said in the original thread, we are only speed running 50+ Content. Nobody is discussing Speed running content at level 1. There are MAIN SCENARIO quests at like level 5 that require you to use emotes.

What do you think we are speed running? Satasha Normal Mode?

No! Maybe Brayflox Hard Mode. Sure, you can spend 40 minutes in there, pulling mobs one group at a time. Or you can clear it in 7.5 minutes. (Assuming you also kill the boss)

I don't understand your hatred here.

also, I've stated multiple times, I have a macro that says roughly "Hi! I'll be your tank for this duty. I'm overgeared, so I'm going to speed run unless there are any objections. If you are new, or want to slow down, please speak up, and I have no problem slowing down so you can enjoy the Duty." if you have an objection, you need to speak up. It's Okay to speak up. Most people want to go quickly though. If you don't want to, and we're asking you if you want to slow down, and you say nothing, we're going to assume you are content with the current pace.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

...
As said in the original thread, we are only speed running 50+ Content. Nobody is discussing Speed running content at level 1. There are MAIN SCENARIO quests at like level 5 that require you to use emotes. ...

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Level 1 or Level 50, it does not matter. People forget they can use emotes. People don't read english, people don't read your macro, etc. etc. You would hope people doing brayflox hm would know a thing or two, but don't be surprised if they are dealing with a speed run for the very first time, or know that speed run is even a concept or a thing.

You need to rephrase your macro to say "I will speed run if everyone agrees to speed run" instead of "there are any objections". This way you do not misintepret the non-response. Putting the onus on the new players is the wrong assumption and leads to wipes in your speedrun.

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Originally Posted by Osias_Qol

I 100% agree expecting people to use the forums if they are new to dungeons is silly.

I expect them to use youtube where they can get a visual rundown.
If you have special needs make a pf.

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Yes, if you want to speed run content (Special need) start up a party finder.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

What are you even talking about?


I don't understand your hatred here.

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Arguing with NyarukoW is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a few hours, you realize that he likes it.

If I see the "one or more players are new to this dungeon etc etc", I try to explain fights to the party. It's sometimes hard when the tank pulls mid explanation though.

I'm against speed-running in the first place anyway, so unless I'm also being dragged, it's not going to be a speed-run for the new players in my group.

Did this really need a new thread?

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Originally Posted by Grimmel

Did this really need a new thread?

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Did the thread this is in response to need a thread?

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Did the thread this is in response to need a thread?

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I think he just means that if this is in response to another thread... why not post it in that thread? That's kind of how responding to a thread works. The button is even called "Reply to Thread"

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Originally Posted by Grimmel

Did this really need a new thread?

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It is not just about speed runs. People have all these unreasonable an unrealistic expectations about new and newer players. That has got to stop. Telling new players to stuff on this forum or other forums isn't going to fix what they don't know, because many of them do not even know to google for answers. Or better yet they do not know that they have a problem/question that needs an answer. And being mean and verbally abusing the new/newer players isn't going to fix or solve the issues either. Because pushing the string harder isn't going to change anything.

Instead of demanding that the new/newer players somehow magically know how do certain things and respond in a specific way, how about those of us who are more experienced player take a bigger picture view and be prepared to work around their problems, or help guide and teach and help them solve the problems together.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Did the thread this is in response to need a thread?

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No it didn't.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Level 1 or Level 50, it does not matter. People forget they can use emotes. People don't read english, people don't read your macro, etc. etc. You would hope people doing brayflox hm would know a thing or two, but don't be surprised if they are dealing with a speed run for the very first time, or know that speed run is even a concept or a thing.

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If people forget to that they can use emotes in this game, then that is something special indeed. For people who run in all languages, yes, that may be a problem but that's a problem you have to deal with when it comes. Everyone basically queues for all languages so eventually you'll have to deal with the issue. That's what auto-translate is for.

If they don't read the macro, then that's their fault.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

You need to rephrase your macro to say "I will speed run if everyone agrees to speed run" instead of "there are any objections". This way you do not misintepret the non-response. Putting the onus on the new players is the wrong assumption and leads to wipes in your speedrun.

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No. This is literally the same question but demanding even more attention from people who either don't care or don't care to answer.
And he's not putting anything unreasonable upon any player's shoulders. He's literally just asking for a response and if they cannot be bothered to give ANYTHING in return, then they will have to get what they get.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Yes, if you want to speed run content (Special need) start up a party finder.

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Except that speedrunning (depending on content) is the primary method of how to run the dungeons. That isn't to say that you won't find someone who wants to go at it leisurely...because even I do it from time to time but it's a general assumption in the current play style of this game that dungeons that are not expert are automatically speedrun and expert dungeons are speedrun when the conditions are correct. You may not like it but this is what the majority do.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And being mean and verbally abusing the new/newer players isn't going to fix or solve the issues either. Because pushing the string harder isn't going to change anything.

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Did you know that sometimes when people mess up the newer players can be abusive towards them as well?
I've lost track of how many times friends tried to give advice to dps only to be given nasty words.
My husband was doing Zodiac on tank and was doing WP and had people who were in decent gear and he just went and pulled the first two groups. They were brand new to the dungeon but felt that even new, they could handle two groups. They immediately started to berate him and cuss him out and made fun of him the entire time until the end. Did he deserve that? No. Did he apologize for pulling (OMG) two groups? Yes, he did and did they still berate and cuss him out? Yes.
People need to be better towards each other. New/newer players are not precious little things that can't handle the content as the majority plays it. They'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Obviously you can't read.

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It becomes clear very quickly if someone is new and just unresponsive for whatever reason. You're assuming the experienced player would continue speed rolling through a dungeon as they watch players get mechanics wrong and die/or wipe the party. I've been in parties where I asked if people needed explanations and no one responded only to end in a wipe. And in this case you explain the dungeon mechanics anyway. What player is just going to continue to allow the party wipe over and over again just because party mates aren't responding? Let's use common sense here, please.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Except that speedrunning (depending on content) is the primary method of how to run the dungeons. That isn't to say that you won't find someone who wants to go at it leisurely...because even I do it from time to time but it's a general assumption in the current play style of this game that dungeons that are not expert are automatically speedrun and expert dungeons are speedrun when the conditions are correct. You may not like it but this is what the majority do.

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i.e. de facto vs de jure

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Originally Posted by Kidblinks

I've been in parties where I asked if people needed explanations and no one responded only to end in a wipe. And in this case you explain the dungeon mechanics anyway. What player is just going to continue to allow the party wipe over and over again just because party mates aren't responding? Let's use common sense here, please.

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Exactly. It benefits no one to not respond if someone asks if anyone needs any explanations. Much better that you take the 20 seconds to have someone explain mechanics before a fight than to just go into the fight, wipe, and then end up getting the same explanation anyway.

You can blame this to PS3-PS4 players... console players new to this genre, and this being their first. Pro Tips: if you gonna play FF14, buy keyboard, learn to read, and TYPE a response. Be honest, being the dumb stupid idiot is far worse than admitting - I am new, and too lazy to look at youtube video (plus i have zero comprehension of how my class work other than pew pew die thank yo!). Chances are people who know the drill will be willing to slow down, type, and explain the strategy. Oh, DO NOT try to lead party if you have ZERO understanding on how the battle and mechanic works, and refuse to type direction - especially when it comes to any coil contents... Just because you clear it once as DPS (whatever dude, we won, I die the entire time) - does not make you an expert.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

You can blame this to PS3-PS4 players... console players new to this genre, and this being their first. Pro Tips: if you gonna play FF14, buy keyboard, learn to read, and TYPE a response. Be honest, being the dumb stupid idiot is far worse than admitting - I am new, and too lazy to look at youtube video (plus i have zero comprehension of how my class work other than pew pew die thank yo!). Chances are people who know the drill will be willing to slow down, type, and explain the strategy. Oh, DO NOT try to lead party if you have ZERO understanding on how the battle and mechanic works, and refuse to type direction - especially when it comes to any coil contents... Just because you clear it once as DPS (whatever dude, we won, I die the entire time) - does not make you an expert.

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I'd say there's absolutely no shortage of PC players who walk into Coil with the mindset of "pew pew die" - that's not a console issue, that's a people issue.

Regardless, on the topic of this thread, I am in absolute agreement. One should never assume players will consult forums or watch videos before doing content. One should not even assume that players even understand that the option to do so is out there. One should always be ready to discuss mechanics and help new or inexperienced players to learn what they need to do.

However, I also believe that if, after asking whether anyone needs advice or assistance, you are met with silence, it is safe to assume everyone is confident and ready. Instances where players have made it all the way to level 50 without coming up with SOME form of communication with other players may happen, but are exceedingly rare - and encouraging them to continue to be uncommunicative is doing them no favors at all. This is a social game; players need to learn to communciate sooner or later, and the sooner the better. If a silent player begins to get frustrated because no one will tell them what to do, that's a GOOD thing, because it will encourage them to speak up, ask questions, and learn.

This is true even for players who do not speak a common language; auto-translate is there for a reason, and it is more versatile than you might think, as any veteran of FFXI can tell you. On that game, ALL servers had players from all regions; there were no data centers like we have in FFXIV. Practically a whole form of speech was born from interactions between cultures; there were few players of any language, for instance, that did not know that (Fishing) meant to seek out a mob, pull it, and drag it back to camp, in spite of the fact that the term was added to represent, well, catching fish. While a similar sub-language may not be present in FFXIV, there's still plenty of information you can get across with auto-translate.

There's no reason to always assume the lowest common denominator when deciding on a playstyle. If one is present, adjust accordingly, but until then play however you like.