Monster Defense Removal and Balancing

Had one of those random discussions with people in the LS and wanted to get more feedback.

When it comes to class balancing and combat, one of the issues being faced right now is that against NMs most all classes are dealing similar damage because of the monsters defense.

A gladiator and marauder and lancer and pug all have somewhat similar damage in the grand scheme of things when fighting the Great Buffalo, as an example.

Where the damage really differs is when mobs have no defense, IE attacking a level 1.
Marauders will deal over 8000 dmg, gladiators tend to deal around 3000 and, something more to what you'd expect from a Sword vs a Great Axe.

On NMs with high defense though, the Sword and GAxe damage is close together, at least close enough.


Something I saw in Everquest II was the removal of all Defense from Enemies, but still allowing Negative Defenses (Weaknesses), and adjusting the HP of monsters to compensate for it.

So, a mob with 2000 HP goes to 20,000 HP but has no defense so takes a lot more damage, as an example - but this leaves room for vastly different damage outputs from players, as well as increased effectiveness of abilities like Bloodbath.

I was wondering if this kind of system would better work for FFXIV than the current one of having Positive Defense on enemies - instead flooring all defense and adding Negative defenses for weakness, allowing players to always deal their damage potential, but allowing moves dependent on Damage to become really useful.


Notice: I didn't mean make the game easier - You adjust the mobs HP to compensate for it so the fights take the same amount of time, but instead of hitting for 60 damage you hit for 4000 allowing Bloodbath II to really be useful on fights against tougher enemies. (Not that it isn't useful now).





tl;dr version:
Remove defense, Add negative stats for mobs weak to something, increase HP accordingly, classes magically become more balanced - if you don't believe it parse against level 1s.
Also note, leave defense for players.

Honestly I think it would be better if they just made the damage types (blunt, pierce, slash, etc...) matter more. It would mean some things are better against certain enemies than others (not new to FF or RPGs for that matter) and it would lend to class uniqueness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Defmetal

against NMs most all classes are dealing similar damage because of the monsters defense.

---

Not true. No idea what leads you to this Statement, but its def. not true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Defmetal

A gladiator and marauder and lancer and pug all have somewhat similar damage in the grand scheme of things when fighting the Great Buffalo, as an example.

---

Not true. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Defmetal

Where the damage really differs is when mobs have no defense, IE attacking a level 1.

---

Eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Defmetal

Marauders will deal over 8000 dmg, gladiators tend to deal around 3000 and, something more to what you'd expect from a Sword vs a Great Axe.

---

Of course, because its a 49 Rank difference. <_<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Defmetal

On NMs with high defense though, the Sword and GAxe damage is close together, at least close enough.

---

No its not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Defmetal

Notice: I didn't mean make the game easier

---

Yes you did, because you dont understand Damagecalculation at all.

Btw: SE will adjust some things in the next Patches and Updates. Not to mention the Revamp of the whole Battle-system. So asking for Balancing right before that happend is not really understandable.

Esp. if people come around the corner and just assume Stuff, and obviously dont know what they are talking about.

I like it.

+1

Yup, so you can just attack them mindlessly and winning fights with no skill required knowing their weaknesses and just point on them.

No man, high damage and easy fights is not what people want. At least I believe... But I believe that's difficulty and good tactics that makes the battle full of fun.
Monsters weaknesses will be a great thing to have, but it'd be cool if some bosses don't have any said weaknesses.
As for me, raising HPs and lowering Defence = Lowering HPs and raising Defence. They take less damage but they have low HPs, and at the same time they take more damage with high HPs, which is basically the same.

No offense, Nero... I'm sure you have experience to defend your statements... but unless you share some of that experience with us your arguments carry no weight...

Just quoting a bunch of passages and just saying "nope, no, nuh-uh, you're wrong." is not arguing or debating... it's just being contrary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

Just quoting a bunch of passages and just saying "nope, no, nuh-uh, you're wrong." is not arguing or debating... it's just being contrary.

---

Would you try to argue with someone who is saying "Cows are pink and can fly"? Or would you just say "you are wrong"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

Honestly I think it would be better if they just made the damage types (blunt, pierce, slash, etc...) matter more. It would mean some things are better against certain enemies than others (not new to FF or RPGs for that matter) and it would lend to class uniqueness.

---

All Right!

All Defmetal wants is bigger numbers pretty much. I can somewhat agree to that. But hitting 8000 on a mob your level is a bit overdoing it imo.

I've been thinking about this for a long time now.

In all RPGs you begin by having ur attacks deal little damage, for like up to 100, and then in the end u deal 9999. But in this game, you deal constant 100 dmg, up until the damn ogre (except if you kill lv1 mobs).

I think bigger numbers give you a sense of accomplishment, and that could be easily done by reducing the defense on enemies and increasing their HP like the OP said. It wouldn't be easier, or harder - just exactly the same. For example, our r45 boss the ogre, has 32k HP. And we're dealing around 200 dmg.
We should feel a lot more powerful, and not like we're only tickling the ogre.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

For example, our r45 boss the ogre, has 32k HP. And we're dealing around 200 dmg.
We should feel a lot more powerful, and not like we're only tickling the ogre.

---

Only Auto-attacking? Not using BR's, as in DefenseDown? No caster for Acc/Atk? Not using Weaponskills? Not using BR's for stacking Damageoutput?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

I've been thinking about this for a long time now.

In all RPGs you begin by having ur attacks deal little damage, for like up to 100, and then in the end u deal 9999. But in this game, you deal constant 100 dmg, up until the damn ogre (except if you kill lv1 mobs).

I think bigger numbers give you a sense of accomplishment, and that could be easily done by reducing the defense on enemies and increasing their HP like the OP said. It wouldn't be easier, or harder - just exactly the same. For example, our r45 boss the ogre, has 32k HP. And we're dealing around 200 dmg.
We should feel a lot more powerful, and not like we're only tickling the ogre.

---

Well, not everyone want to do 146,523 dmg and have boss that has 678,375,263,399 hp, especially with all the damage pop up.

*sigh* It was an example, but I can give you details if you want.

For normal attacks, i deal about 70-80 as an archer.
With multishot+raging strike II+ferocity+hawk's eye, i deal about 200 with each arrow.
I actually dont remember how much bloodletter damages.

Anyway, I was just asking for bigger numbers. Like multiplying everything by 10, so you feel you're doing something in the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

Well, not everyone want to do 146,523 dmg and have boss that has 678,375,263,399 hp, especially with all the damage pop up.

---

I don't want that. lol I was thinking about more reasonable numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

*sigh* It was an example, but I can give you details if you want.

For normal attacks, i deal about 70-80 as an archer.
With multishot+raging strike II+ferocity+hawk's eye, i deal about 200 with each arrow.
I actually dont remember how much bloodletter damages.

Anyway, I was just asking for bigger numbers. Like multiplying everything by 10, so you feel you're doing something in the fight.

---

If you want bigger numbers and a x10 multiplier.. what about giving Ogre along with that like 350k HP?

Seriously.. Ogre can be killed easy in like 5 Minutes. Why you even want to make it faster?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nero

If you want bigger numbers and a x10 multiplier.. what about giving Ogre along with that like 350k HP?

Seriously.. Ogre can be killed easy in like 5 Minutes. Why you even want to make it faster?

---

Okay, once again it wouldn't make it faster or harder or easier or longer. Can't you understand that? Okay, simple math:
If an Ogre has 35.000 HP and I deal 100 per attack, how many attacks does it take for me to kill it?

35.000/100 = 350

Now, if the Ogre has 350.000 HP and I deal 1000 per attack, how many is it now?

350.000/1000 = 35.000/100 = 3.500/10 = 350/1 = 350.

See? Same number of attacks -> same time to defeat -> same difficulty.

I don't want to make the difficulty change, I'm not even talking about that. I'm purely talking about the effect of relevance and accomplishment that a player has is bigger when they deal 2000 damage, then when they deal 20. Likewise, you feel that a mob is stronger, the stronger his HP is - and that makes you want to fight harder and is more fun.

Just think of it this way, would you like for the Ogre (for example) to only have 3.500 HP and you kept dealing 10 dmg? Isn't it a lot more menacing to have 35.000HP?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

Okay, once again it wouldn't make it faster or harder or easier or longer. Can't you understand that? Okay, simple math:

If an Ogre has 35.000 HP and I deal 100 per attack, how many attacks does it take for me to kill it?

35.000/100 = 350

---

Has nothing to do with Math at all. Otherwise you would implement the Damageoutput of the whole Group, including BR's, Buff, DoT's etc etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

Now, if the Ogre has 350.000 HP and I deal 1000 per attack, how many is it now?

---

Doesnt matter... still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

350.000/1000 = 35.000/100 = 3.500/10 = 350/1 = 350.

See? Same number of attacks -> same time to defeat -> same difficulty.

---

Exactly.. you pointed it out yourself. WHY even change the number? Do you get it now, or do i have to pull out mor sarcasm?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

I don't want to make the difficulty change, I'm not even talking about that. I'm purely talking about the effect of relevance and accomplishment that a player has is bigger when they deal 2000 damage, then when they deal 20. Likewise, you feel that a mob is stronger, the stronger his HP is - and that makes you want to fight harder and is more fun.

Just think of it this way, would you like for the Ogre (for example) to only have 3.500 HP and you kept dealing 10 dmg? Isn't it a lot more menacing to have 35.000HP?

---

Its does not matter. Same percentage taken, same skill needed, same result. So it does not matter at all if i see "10" dmg or "10.000" damage. Its just a psychological effect some people may would like, but it doesnt make sense at all, to change it that way. I personally dont care if i do 10 or 10000000 Dmg if its ending in the same Result. Its just an graphical Indikator.. nothing more. Its like i would say:

"Hey SE.. make my Lance look more SHARP.. so i feel more usefull" .. Do you know what i mean? It does not matter at all.

And the OP actually wants to make it easier. See here:

Quote:

---

Remove defense, Add negative stats for mobs weak to something, increase HP accordingly, classes magically become more balanced - if you don't believe it parse against level 1s.
Also note, leave defense for players.

---

Does defense hurt faster hitting classes like PGL more than slow hitting classes like MRD?
I'm just curious because this thread reminds me of THF's problems with defense in FFXI. It was not uncommon to see a reasonably well equipped THF to hit for 10 or even 0 on many mob types because of the fact it was a low damage but fast hitting class. Technically it had good DPS because it hit very rapidly, but in practice each hit was reduced so much that it never achieved the same output as other DD jobs. The fact that you got no TP return on a hit for 0 only exacerbated the problem.

I personally have no idea if this is the case with fast hitting classes in FFXIV, because the part of the game I'm up to is just mindlessly easy and I never bothered to check. So I'd love if someone gave me some insight about this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nero

Its does not matter. Same percentage taken, same skill needed, same result. So it does not matter at all if i see "10" dmg or "10.000" damage. Its just a psychological effect some people may would like, but it doesnt make sense at all, to change it that way. I personally dont care if i do 10 or 10000000 Dmg if its ending in the same Result. Its just an graphical Indikator.. nothing more.

---

I understand what you're saying, and that's what I've been saying from the beginning. From the point of view of the game, difficulty and such, it doesn't matter at all. It's just simple game progression. Higher mobs should have higher HP and you should deal higher damage.
I know for some players, it doesn't matter, but I know for sure that for some it does. I never played WoW, but while talking about this with my friend, he said that a lot of ppl modded the UI to change the damage to higher numbers, just so they could feel stronger, until the point that Blizzard did that to the game XD
For me, having played all FFs and all the RPGs I could grab, it seems a little weird to deal the same amount of damage throughout the game.

But it's just my opinion. I'm just stating what I think about the big/small numbers. I'm not actually discussing the "remove defense" from the OP, which I don't think they should, just adjust it so we kinda see our characters progressing, which is the point in a RPG / MMO.

Either way, stats are gonna change in 1.19, so we should all settle down and wait for the changes to come, so we can see.