Ninjas: Where did SqEx go wrong?

I've noticed that the vast majority of PUG Ninjas in my Expert Roulettes don't use Huton (or have uptimes far below 50%) and/or Trick Attack. Since I don't want to have to vote kick every bad NIN (nor do I believe a vote would succeed) I think it's worth pondering the WHY in the hopes that I can cap in a timely manner. I have three ideas:

1) Mudras are hard. I main heals and I had been able to get by on all content without a VPN. Ninja is unplayable for me without a VPN. And even with one you get janky mudra inputs sometimes.

2) As an attack speed buff, the value of Huton is much less obvious than Raiton.

3) The floor for Ninjas isn't any lower than other classes; it's just more obvious (for whatever reason/s) when a Ninja is playing suboptimally.

Anyone have similar/different experiences or thoughts on the matter?

You want to kick a nin for not using huton or trick attack?

you'll never botch your mudra if you wait until you hear the sound effect of the buff before you input the next step.

when you use a mudra you'll hear 2 sound effect, the first one is "tack!" and the second one is "fewww" the second sound can confirm that you have the buff on you and ready to go to the next step.

Where you went wrong was expecting optimal performance from PUGs, especially on penalty of a kick.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

you'll never botch your mudra if you wait until you hear the sound effect of the buff before you input the next step.

when you use a mudra you'll hear 2 sound effect, the first one is "tack!" and the second one is "fewww" the second sound can confirm that you have the buff on you and ready to go to the next step.

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The problem is the timing for that can vary considerably, depending on latency. Ninjas with bad latency will find it considerably more annoying to input mudras than ninjas with good latency and the invariable end result is, frustratingly, lower DPS potential.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

The problem is the timing for that can vary considerably, depending on latency. Ninjas with bad latency will find it considerably more annoying to input mudras than ninjas with good latency and the invariable end result is, frustratingly, lower DPS potential.

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yeah, because the timing can vary depend on latency, that's why I told you fellow ninjas to not rely on your feeling but rely on the sound effect instead.

You've obviously never suffered through a CT raid filled with loldrgs.

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Originally Posted by Icebrand

You've obviously never suffered through a CT raid filled with loldrgs.

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I find doing CT with 6 ninjas who all use doton religiously on CD for single target is worse.

I'm confused as to the point of this post? Ninja is probably one of the interesting and complex DPS jobs in the game. This goes from visuals to actual mechanics and gameplay. Could some minor adjustments be made to mudras? Yeah probably.

SquareEnix is not responsible for crappy gamers.

Ninja is a well-designed class imo, although it would be nice if latency wasn't such a factor.

went wrong the moment they created a system (mudras) that albeit looked good on paper , forced a external stat on ninjas...called RL LATENCY the higher this stat the worse your nin will do. and it sucks.....

ninja is a job that ask the player to press 3 buttons in a order every 20s...keep a buff up (huton) , and keep 3 debufs on the target (no that is hard once u know the rotation ) all while doing boss mechanics.... isnt rocket science but ....

Ninjas and bad ping don't go together. Latency -IS- a factor. The value of skill speed gets reduced a lot if a player has bad ping on nin. U can talk about good players and bad players till the cows come hom, but ppl with crap ping wont reach stellar heights on nin.

As bad as it sounds, if you have horrible ping and botch your ninjutsu often you should probably just play a different job altogether or try and fix your ping.

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Originally Posted by Reves

You want to kick a nin for not using huton or trick attack?

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Absolutely. FFXIV is a multiplayer game and I think to not exhibit even the most basic level of competency in your playing is incredibly disrespectful of anyone who ever has the misfortune to group with you. I'm pointedly not talking about doing max dps for their gear or doing optimal rotations--I'm asking for Huton and Trick Attack.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I'm confused as to the point of this post? Ninja is probably one of the interesting and complex DPS jobs in the game. This goes from visuals to actual mechanics and gameplay. Could some minor adjustments be made to mudras? Yeah probably.

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The point is: it feels to me like Ninjas are unable to have even rock-bottom proficiency at their class more than any other class I see in roulette. Is there a fixable problem with the NIN class or is it just my imagination and PUGs in general are just completely smashing random keys?

Ninja also hasn't been around for as long as the other classes. I'm sure there are some out there who simply haven't the faintest clue what they're doing.

If you're looking for a way to help these ninja out though, I recommend the carrot instead of the stick. Point out to them that keeping huton up improves their performance (once you get used to having it up all the time, not having it up suddenly makes you feel like garbage). Some of them probably also don't realize that trick attack is stronger than sneak attack due to its affect on the rest of the party... at a glance, it looks like it's weaker.

Point out that doton on a single target is a waste of a perfectly good raiton.

But just getting exasperated and threatening to kick people until morale improves isn't going to help anything.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

I find doing CT with 6 ninjas who all use doton religiously on CD for single target is worse.

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^This

[10 char]

I only play nin for fun, and I know I don't use the considered best rotation, but even I use my buffs debuffs whenever there up and its safe to squeeze them in.

as for mundra, in general its fine for me and I don't have issues with getting the right mundra the majority of the time however in wod today the inputs seemed so slow and yeah I could slow down and make sure each step is registered but seriously that's a major dps hit it would feel to the point im probs not gaining by using the mundras at all. this feels like something se could look into although im sure they have looked very carefully at load balancing on these raids.

My favorite is when Ninja's I see are using Doton for AOE pulls, ESPECIALLY ones where the other DPS is a BLM. NIN is my alt so I've spent a considerable amount of time learning the ins and outs of it. By no means am I an expert but when I see someone throwing Doton up when an add is clearly going to die in 10 seconds or less I just have to nod and be like, "Yes. Definitely the best option." Obviously, in a sarcastic tone. :p

Strangely enough, I think I've encountered more bad ninjas that only spam their AE combo and won't put up any dots compared to ninjas that don't huton or trick. I think the biggest problem is all the new skills you learn with that last mudra. It's a little overwhelming at first and the job quests don't go into great detail about each skill you get so I'm not surprised that some people just don't bother reading or learning it at all.

But there are gonna be people who are awful at their job no matter what. I still see drgs that can't keep heavy thrust up or mnks that can't keep stacks or use positionals. They're just rarer compared to how many people wanna be ninjas. Wait til 3.0 and bad ninjas will be replaced with bad gunners.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

My favorite is when Ninja's I see are using Doton for AOE pulls, ESPECIALLY ones where the other DPS is a BLM. NIN is my alt so I've spent a considerable amount of time learning the ins and outs of it. By no means am I an expert but when I see someone throwing Doton up when an add is clearly going to die in 10 seconds or less I just have to nod and be like, "Yes. Definitely the best option." Obviously, in a sarcastic tone. :p

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What's worse is when they use Doton on single targets. I swear, I see it cast on bosses who are below 10% in nearly every 24-man. /sigh. I almost wish the Devs. would just remove the skill completely.

I don't think that it is so much a problem with ninjas, as it is a problem with inexperienced players.

It is very common to see players who:
1) Do not understand the mechanics of the game (DoT's, Buffs, GCD's, etc.)
2) Do not yet know boss mechanics so their rotations suffer because they cannot concentrate on them
3) Have not stumbled upon (or researched) proper rotations
4) Do not understand their skills or how to use them efficiently
5) Have fresh 50 gear

It is very obvious to spot players suffering from these issues, especially in 24 man content. MMO's tend to have overly complicated mechanics that are not obvious to first time players.

Now sure, I get a little annoyed when my experience is lengthened by the struggles of bad/new/inexperienced players; however, the only solution is to help them to learn and develop their skills. Just vote kicking them and moving on is very toxic for the community. Try and spend some time teaching them and they will get better over time.

Patience, friend

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Originally Posted by Mazerat

Since I don't want to have to vote kick every bad NIN (nor do I believe a vote would succeed) I think it's worth pondering the WHY in the hopes that I can cap in a timely manner.
Anyone have similar/different experiences or thoughts on the matter?

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Man, if vote kicks happened for sub optimal (read: terrible) play 9 out of every 10 goons I see would get the boot. No HT, random abilities being used out of combo, etc.

Unless they're causing constant wipes for whatever reason it's never going to be a reason for me to kick them (I've had the occasional group that after several attempts still couldn't meet dungeon dps checks).

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

What's worse is when they use Doton on single targets. I swear, I see it cast on bosses who are below 10% in nearly every 24-man. /sigh. I almost wish the Devs. would just remove the skill completely.

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"I wish they'd remove a perfectly good skill because bad players are bad"

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Originally Posted by Slappah

"I wish they'd remove a perfectly good skill because bad players are bad"

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It's not like it's a great ability to begin with... Nine times out of ten, if a good Ninja is using Doton, it's because they messed up their combo.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

It's not like it's a great ability to begin with... Nine times out of ten, if a good Ninja is using Doton, it's because they messed up their combo.

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Good ninjas rarely if ever botch a ninjutsu to begin with.

Katon>kassatsu>doton is very strong, with each tick of doton critting.

Saying you want the ability removed because bad players use it at the wrong time is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

Good ninjas rarely if ever botch a ninjutsu to begin with.

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Highlighting the rarity of Doton's usage by good Ninjas.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Highlighting the rarity of Doton's usage by good Ninjas.

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It doesn't matter how often an ability is used. You're ignoring the point.

By your logic lets remove sleep, and tridastor, and miasma 2

Doton still has some great uses, though most of them involve dealing with trash. And I agree with Slappah on this one. You can't remove an ability just because bad players don't know how to use it. By that logic, you would need to remove a LOT more.

What about Flare? I see BLM's all the time casting flare while they have full MP, effectively destroying their DPS output lol. Is that grounds to remove it? I think you would have a billion angry BLM's if you tried lol

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Originally Posted by Slappah

It doesn't matter how often an ability is used. You're ignoring the point.

By your logic lets remove sleep, and tridastor, and miasma 2

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And nothing of value will be lost =D.

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Originally Posted by DenebPunkin

And nothing of value will be lost =D.

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Sleep-invaluable CC for both soloing and group purposes. (Low level dungeons, PvP, non-instanced solo content)

Miasma 2-used all the time on single target with contagion, also used all the time on aoe

Tri-dastor-Summoners only form of CC besides garudas knockback.

You're wrong, so no, try again.

I seriously don't understand anyone who wants ANY ability removed in this game.
Every job in this game is already very simple due to the long GCD, we should be wanting more complex rotations, not even more simplified ones.
It's almost as if some of you in this thread don't even play this game

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Originally Posted by Slappah

Sleep-invaluable CC for both soloing and group purposes. (Low level dungeons, PvP, non-instanced solo content)

Miasma 2-used all the time on single target with contagion, also used all the time on aoe

Tri-dastor-Summoners only form of CC besides garudas knockback.

You're wrong, so no, try again.

I seriously don't understand anyone who wants ANY ability removed in this game.
Every job in this game is already very simple due to the long GCD, we should be wanting more complex rotations, not even more simplified ones.
It's almost as if some of you in this thread don't even play this game

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Well done on overstating these skills uses.

Sleep is not an "invaluable" CC. It has it's uses, but nothing is lost if it is never used. (it is quite OP in PVP tho)

Miasma 2 is net 70 potency (20 up front, 10/tick on DoT, 15s duration so 5 ticks). It is less efficient per GCD compared to Ruin/II (80 potency) unless
- Contagion, where it becomes 120 potency for that one application
- multiple enemies

No reason to use as your "while moving" spell on a single boss enemy. Use Ruin II instead. (and if have Miasma 1 up Miasma 2 doesnt really add anything for Fester)

Therefore on a single target, it is more effective to cast Ruin/Ruin 2 (80 potency) then Miasma II (70 total potency after 15s)

Tri-Dastor.. that spell every SMN wants to forget exists... and constantly complains about needing a major revamping or buff??? The high MP cost, with very low damage and using of an aetherflow charge are just not worth it and better used on fester and bane.

Again, I was never of the mind that "abilities" should be removed.. but simply that these specific abilities are very VERY situational and even then there are more efficient and better skills available to handle these very VERY rare situations.

TL;DR
Some skills are just not that viable... and dont contribute anything of significance to warrant being part of a standard/constant rotation.

So once again... nothing of value will be lost =D.

I said miasma 2 was only used on aoe or along with contagion.

Tri-dastor doesn't use aetherflow. And does not need a buff. It ISN'T for damage. It's CC. It's perfectly fine as is. It's a ranged aoe bind and is summoners only CC.

Sleep IS invaluable CC because as you said, it's op in PvP. (Even though it really isn't op at all.)

I'm NOT overstating the uses of these skills, I'm simply stating the uses for the skills.

NONE of these skills are used in your regular rotation because they aren't meant to be..they are all situational skills and 100% most absolutely have their uses and do have value.

On an off topic side note, +1 for dragons dogma sig. Love that game to death.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

I said miasma 2 was only used on aoe or along with contagion.

Tri-dastor doesn't use aetherflow. And does not need a buff. It ISN'T for damage. It's CC. It's perfectly fine as is. It's a ranged aoe bind and is summoners only CC.

Sleep IS invaluable CC because as you said, it's op in PvP. (Even though it really isn't op at all.)

I'm NOT overstating the uses of these skills, I'm simply stating the uses for the skills.

NONE of these skills are used in your regular rotation because they aren't meant to be..they are all situational skills and 100% most absolutely have their uses and do have value.

On an off topic side note, +1 for dragons dogma sig. Love that game to death.

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Aha... so we were saying the same thing but I just failed to read and comprehend what you were saying.. my bad ^_^.

PS - Dragons Dogma ONLINE.. but Japan only... why does Capcom continue to do this to US T_T

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Originally Posted by Slappah

Good ninjas rarely if ever botch a ninjutsu to begin with.

Katon>kassatsu>doton is very strong, with each tick of doton critting.

Saying you want the ability removed because bad players use it at the wrong time is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

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i thought they changed it to only crit boost physical attacks

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Originally Posted by DenebPunkin

PS - Dragons Dogma ONLINE.. but Japan only... why does Capcom continue to do this to US T_T

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Wow that hits me right in the feels...

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

i thought they changed it to only crit boost physical attacks

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I just did 3 dungeons and I'm 95% sure that my doton was always critting.

I don't ever remember seeing any change like that.

Also this can't be true because kassatsu 100% guaruntees raiton will crit, which is a magical attack.