[Frontline]Would you vote dismiss someone. . .

. . . wearing ilvl55 gear (lol 3,000 HP == Food)

. . . ignoring party instruction?

Where do you draw the line?

Should FFXIV even have such a bar? (I don't play other MMOs so I don't know how those work either)

I come from a competitive Total War and Battlefield background, kicking is standard procedure, you don't win unless you trim the fat (and they don't learn to play until you give them the boot).

Granted in BF they are only removed from squad, not the match entirely. TW though is a different story, losing your clan is like losing your ability to play.

. . . Where does SE stand on this?

. . . /SeanConneryVoice: "What are you prepared to do!?"

Frontline is a joke if you want to play something competitive, it was mainly designed for people who don't really care about pvp, by people who have demonstrated time and time again that they don't really care for pvp and grants pve rewards

Besides, every 2 losses that i55 guy takes grants him an i80 item anyway, so eventually it corrects himself, its not nearly as bad as the healers who are i80 only have 3.5k hp

Kicking people for their gear is elitist and wrong. Everyone has to start somewhere.

(Unless they're missing gear slots altogether...)

I would say it depends on the gear situation. If they've obviously just hit 50, and you see every couple matches they have a new piece of i70 gear, then at least they're trying and I wouldn't kick them, they could potentially be a valuable team mate later on down the road.

Ignoring party instructions, and those that have been doing many matches and haven't upgraded their gear are another case though.

I had a stone vigil NM yesterday with a healer who had the i1 sailor glamour chest, and i15 pants and passed when i40 caster pants dropped. Some people are definitely a lost cause.

To be fair.

I started in frontline on Hyrist as a an ilvl 50ish Paladin and worked my way up to where I am now with most if not all my pieces above ilvl90.

It's actually faster to progress pve that way too as you're not forced to hit the tier wall to get better gear.

I'd say, if they become a repeat problem and don't show improvement, then warning your crew before kicking them is a good idea.

Otherwise, give the newbies a chance to invest.

[QUOTE=Red_Wolf;2796958]...Everyone has to start somewhere./QUOTE]

For argument's sake, what if I said BS to this idea..

Starting somewhere? How about Praet and Castrum grinding like the rest of us had to back then. Easy tomes with the roulette. HM primals give i70 weapons better then the i48 cobalt crap and vintage I see on a regular basis.

Are they really 'starting out'? /airquotes

Or are they trying to leap frog game content.

All for the sake of argument.

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If they've obviously just hit 50, and you see every couple matches they have a new piece of i70 gear,

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If they just hit 50, they probably don't have their PVE rotation figured out, let alone PVP rotation. That's just way too green. The idea these people could not care about how poor hey performance in FL, it just baffles me.

It's nice to be the one who stays current and make commentary at those who aren't where you are.

That kind of elitism baffles me.

PvP and PvE rotations are mutually exclusive, you don't have to learn one to learn another. And if they're learning, then they're learning. This game does not put empasis on heated competition in PvP. It's not a PvP-centric game. But if they're making an effor to learn it PvP as they go along, who are you to dictate how they should advance their character after reaching fifty? Frontlines provides a good alternative to Pre grinding and it begins to teach you the importance of teamwork to boot. I'd say it's much better training than sitting there repeating the same easy mobs over and over again being carried by a bunch of people who are either Spirit bonding or going for quick tomes.

Again, I advanced Paladin through PvP on a brand new character. Perhaps they're trying to do the same? Try not to look down on people so hard, it'll give you a creek in the neck.

So you stepped into it before reaching i80?

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Starting somewhere? How about Praet and Castrum grinding like the rest of us had to back then. Easy tomes with the roulette. HM primals give i70 weapons better then the i48 cobalt crap and vintage I see on a regular basis.

Are they really 'starting out'? /airquotes

Or are they trying to leap frog game content.

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Both are 20 soldiery/run. That means a full set of ilvl90 gear (excluding weapon) in a mere 270 runs. Frontlines gives twice as many, plus 20 poetics, plus wolf marks.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Try not to look down on people so hard

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Elitism would be actually enforcing such expectations in match.

I'm not.

This is discussion; the devil's advocate (hence the 'for argument sake'), asking hard questions.

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This game does not put empasis on heated competition in PvP. It's not a PvP-centric game.

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This seems to be reason apparently. PVE you join a raid not knowing your role or undergeared, you're getting booted (or at the very least, flamed until you wish you hadn't shown up).

But FL gets a pass because it's lolPvP who cares.

Edit addendum:

@StouterTaru

There a plenty of ways to get easy BiS twinks for FL. It takes 5 minutes to get a relic weapon, and for a lot of classes (whm) it's BiS. If they just hit 50 they probably have a 50,000 stash of GC seals that can be used to buy the expensive mats for Wolfram/Saurian gear

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Originally Posted by Atreus

So you stepped into it before reaching i80?

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The only way I hit ilvl80 was through front-lines.(And a bit of LotA, ST) You can track the forums to see how I went form start to not-gimp right here in this forum section. I consulted people on the forums and asked what to do concerning a PvP - centrist character, and the recommendation that resounded the most was go ham and just dive in. I took it one step further and had a set of ilvl55 PVP gear crafted - so I went in there with around ilvl70.

As my damage was already negligible at that point, during my earliest days in front-lines I threw on Shield Oath and functioned as interference and defense only. It worked. Some of the tactics I learned during those initial fights I still use today, such as utilizing Glory Slash to push an aggressive squishy further out of position to get collapsed upon.

As I geared, I focused on learning more tactics and how to improve mechanically as well as with gear. And while my gear is caught up I can still learn things Mechanically. But now I have some rank under me, some skills augmented and have a better grip on how to preform in PvP. I would say the negative impact of my gear on front-lines as a tank was Negligible. Base stats don't seem to matter as much as secondaries and it's more about what you are doing rather than what you are wearing (within reason). At least as far as my experiences as a tank go.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

This seems to be reason apparently. PVE you join a raid not knowing your role or undergeared, you're getting booted (or at the very least, flamed until you wish you hadn't shown up).

But FL gets a pass because it's lolPvP who cares.

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No... you see there's a major difference between PvE and PvP.

In PvE, the fights are heavily scripted - uniform. If you meet the minimum ilvl requirements to get in, and you follow the instructions, you fine. If you can't meet the minimum ilvl then you don't get in. The Game's own mechanics insure the first half of your argument there. And as I said, gear has a minimal impact in PvP overall aside from minmaxing (wearing vit accessories as a squishy, wear str accessories as a tank, etc)

The second half, the part about not 'knowing the fight', is impossible. There is no real set video guides or tactics for PvP. Once there is one, the meta shifts to counter it. And in the end, following instructions usually follows after an understanding of the mechanics, which, in PvP, is done through experience, not instruction like PvE is.

If you'd like to host a series of PvP video guides on You Tube to encourage better play, go right ahead. But right now, they're myriad and opinionated and not nearly as concise as the ones for PvE, so yes, the expectation is different.

To follow up on your origonal question: "Where do you draw the line?"

Afkers
Those who heavily harass their own players.

And that's about it.

I don't hold PvP in disdain, but I don't hold it on a pedestal either. It's far too unrefined to expect player refinement from outside of Wolf's Den, and even when it's corrected, you have to account for a casual majority.
You can't draw the same standards for PvP in this game as you can for PvE. They're built differently.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

For argument's sake, what if I said BS to this idea..

Starting somewhere? How about Praet and Castrum grinding like the rest of us had to back then. Easy tomes with the roulette. HM primals give i70 weapons better then the i48 cobalt crap and vintage I see on a regular basis.

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Several parts of this game are locked by gear level or have a recommended gear level. FL's is an ilvl 80 sync. Before Q times hit 30+ minutes, I would say FL's was by far the best way to gear up in this game. Between spending wolfmarks on the i90 weapon and the raid token gear it is very efficient. If you don't like that newer players can earn gear faster than the way you did it 6 months ago... then all I can say is welcome to MMO's and don't get too butthurt when all your hard earned gear is turned into vendor trash with Heavensward's new level cap.

I pretty much did PvP-only from day one. I'm doing PvE a little more now and looking like a complete noob in my Ironworks gear. So far I haven’t been the cause of any wipes but I still hear chirping from time to time about a tank actually having to use a defensive cooldown in a dungeon (the horror…).

What I’m saying is people are going to join in with different levels of gear, skill, and experience. That’s what makes MMO’s great: Progression.

Undergeared players in Frontlines- I would not kick someone for being Undergeared if they showed an ounce of willingness to learn to play effectively with the team and were just trying to gear up. There are plenty of players who are overgreared and yet a complete liability to their team, and the difference is an undergeared person who is willing to learn will have better gear after just a few matches (unless people kick them out of every one), but a well-geared player who sucks, is still going to suck just as much after 50 matches.

Not following team strategy- This one is tricky, because people have a difference of opinion when it comes to strategy. Some people are usually right, some people are usually wrong, some are always wrong, and you'll have different people calling out conflicting objectives in the same match. A lot of people think they're in charge, but unless a full party decides someone is in charge for that party, there's no one who's the actual leader who's strategy should be followed. I've felt like kicking people before when they are off on their own and we really needed their support, but I don't feel its quite justifiable unless the person is flat out AFK'ing or botting. I'm not much of a rage quitter at all, I had < 5 rage quits total in the year and a half prior to the beginning of this year, but I had to do it yesterday in a 24 man secure match because my team kept going with the exact opposite of the most sensible decision at every key juncture. I don't expect everyone to always agree with me, or to go along with what I want, and I don't think I'm 100% correct (and some of it is guesswork about what you think the other teams would be doing if they're playing intelligently)- but if I tell the party we should do X instead of Y, because Z, and then they just choose to do Y instead with no good reason given, and we find ourselves in distant 3rd because of it- if that happens enough times in a match, I can't kick all then, but I am sure as hell not going to stick around and suffer. Rage quitting PVP is kind of a way to make the statement- 'The way this team is playing sucks so much I'd rather take a 30 minute penalty and forfeit the rewards at the end of the match than continue to be a part of it.' Hmm that could make for a good rage quit macro, if things don't improve.

My initial reaction often is to kick people who are really undergeared, but the fact of the matter is that this game does a horrific job of explaining acceptable entry requirements. For example, if you queue up for uncapped WD, 90% of the time you will find a bunch of players who just hit 50, because the stupid duty finder list says Lv. 50, there's a giant scroll down list that most people don't bother to read, and if you do get down there it also says level 50. A new player will have absolutely ZERO clue that this really means uncapped and players are potentially at ilvl 130. Furthermore, i80 cap WD is a hidden quest, and does a terrible job of explaining to newer players that it actually means your gear caps at 80.

So really i do my best to explain to newer players they need to be better geared for FL but that's not too hard to achieve and i don't think i've met anyone who's been unreceptive. If they were being jerks about it though then that's a problem, but really most people just don't know until they get there.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

If you don't like that newer players can earn gear faster than the way you did it 6 months ago...

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More like 2+ years ago. i55 is 1.0 gear and is acquired via job quest.

As I mentioned on the previous page, there are dozens of instantly accessible gear i80+ when you hit 50 (your statement enhances my point more than anything i feel).

Why the pass? Leap frogging content is fine and all when it's not at other player's expense.

You don't /facepalm when you see this happening? I don't believe that.

Setting a bar (low enough as it is) is too much? Really??

It is.

First off, there is no instantly accessible ilvl 80 gear. It must be grinded from LotA which has intermittent participation and high loot contest, especially for DPS, and has no jewelry. Same happens for everything but a tank in ST, except they suffer a lower droprate because of it.

Compound this with the fact that any crafted gear on balmung higher than ilvl 70 will go for well over 200k a piece on average, no, ilvl 80 is not readily acessible. Even dungeon drops are behind a ilvl55 wall which, no, your jewelry and weapons are not acquired via quests.

By contrast, a few frontlines matches can get you a set of ilvl70 Jewlery which will get you into those dungeons, can get you an ilvl90 weapon without having to pug a bunch of old fights. And it's an additional roulette to have to get you those bonus tomes.

Incorporating a bit of casual PvP into your routine saves you a ton of headache for negligible performance loss to the groups playing in frontlines. Case in point, earlier today: I just won a secure with a Summoner wearing all AF and level38 rings. Same character in slaughter later on, we got second.

The biggest stat difference gear gives in front lines is secondary bonuses, base stats don't factor. And with an ilvl80 cap the disparity is rather low on the onset, and the gear to catch up is cheap. There's no point in harping someone for using what's the most effective route to advance in game, so long as they're polite about it.

Draw the line at a person's attitude, not their progression status.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

they don't learn to play until you give them the boot).

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That's like saying people don't learn unless you hit them. I'm of the opinion people learn by experience and advice.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The biggest stat difference gear gives in front lines is secondary bonuses, base stats don't factor

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Not sure you've got this right. On gear that's i80 or above, this is correct, they will all have the same primary stats when synced and only secondary stats will differ. If you're under i80 though, the reduced primary stats (especially VIT) will have a significant impact that is far more important than secondaries.

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Originally Posted by Blubbers

Not sure you've got this right. On gear that's i80 or above, this is correct, they will all have the same primary stats when synced and only secondary stats will differ. If you're under i80 though, the reduced primary stats (especially VIT) will have a significant impact that is far more important than secondaries.

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Base statistics such as Defense and Magic Defense, however, do not factor, which is what I was getting at.

True, good point

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

You don't /facepalm when you see this happening? I don't believe that.

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Honestly, there isn’t much of a difference between a rookie that is geared and a rookie that needs gear. Both of them are both going to die or fall for the same traps. Assumptions on their skill are the only difference.

For 72 slaughter I'd agree to an extent.

Not true for all other instances. The difference between 3k hp and 4.1+ hp is vastly apparent.

I can heal a dps who's overextended and getting bursted if they've got the HP pool to allow it. Even just a few hundred hps can make a difference between landing a Cure2 before a killing blow

When this happens enemies give up and move to a different target. Likely the other GC. Or they stick on my friendly and end up being baited into our group.

Gear matters.

Additionally, should I even bother reviving someone with sub 3k hp? Weakened status is putting them even lower. A bard without Bfb could burst them for their total HP pool. They're food.

There is only 1 reasons for me to kick someone: They AFK.

You can yell, scream, and belittle me, that's fine. I'm pretty much accustomed to toxic players. Just don't talk down to anyone else, while I won't initiate the kick, if it pops up, I'll vote to send you packing. If you AFK and contribute nothing to the team I'll initiate the kick myself and tell everyone to vote you out. It has happened more than once where someone will go far-off map and AFK, nuh uh, not today.

I will risk losing to vote kick afk. If they are new, most people are friendly and want to learn. I have almost never seen a new player jerk around like you see someone who does it all the time.

The community is to small to be mean to someone who is new. A few matches and they should have a few decent pvp pieces. Let us not call it carrying but helping. You don't carry your friends you help them.

Also the few other games I have played have no bar to start pvp. The curb stomping usually is a deterrent for stepping to far out of your league. Down the orad most gaes have rank. Or a funnel system for the top tier and only mix and match when que help is needed.

I wouldn't as long as they look like theyre putting forth an effort in trying. I only kick jerks/afkers. Furthermore you lose whatever buff they gave the party and the full party buff. Say you kick the only tank you lose a vit buff which super useful (like an extra 200-300 hp to everyone or something) , you cant kick people till 5 mins in and I believe after 5 mins it wont replace members due to the JP heavily complaining about getting join in-progress losing runs. Although it really grinds my gears when we all leave mid but like 5 people decide they'd rather stay/keep going up there to feed points, come on gais ; ; (I dont speak up about it though)


edit- Also frontline is supposed to be a fun casual thing in my opinion. Id prefer to keep the raaaage to WoD runs and the like.

Front lines needs a ilvl requirement, I see a lot of plds come in with ilvl 28 items and gear. One pld had like 2.9k hp.

I would only vote dismiss a person that was AFK or offline. Not following directions or having low level gear is normal. If they do it enough they will want to get more gear and understand that following directions will win games.

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Originally Posted by ViciousDreamer

I would only vote dismiss a person that was AFK or offline. Not following directions or having low level gear is normal. If they do it enough they will want to get more gear and understand that following directions will win games.

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Not following directions isn't normal, but its accepted by many players in FL as normal. If this was pve and you were in a serious group who wanted to clear content but you didn't want to follow directions and work as a team, you would be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Domira

Not following directions isn't normal, but its accepted by many players in FL as normal. If this was pve and you were in a serious group who wanted to clear content but you didn't want to follow directions and work as a team, you would be kicked.

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Red Herring. Just because someone is undergeared does not mean they will not follow directions and just because someone is well geared does not mean they will.

Completely separate issues from gearing.

Getting people to follow instructions usually comes form getting them to understand the game and having things moved forward from there. Thats why premades are so good, because they're all on the same page. It's not expected to get that working with randoms though with encouragement people are generally pretty good at it.

no, I only vote for healer who didn't do their job to healing (at least help me heal don't just make the foes sleep m8)