Iceheart Harriers - Theories

Well I just recently caught up with all the storyline thus-far and wanted to jot down my thoughts about Icehearts ideals, and how she was able to evoke/channel Shiva by using herself as a vessel- and even surviving the ordeal after Shiva was defeated.

From what we know so far, Iceheart is a vandal and is very much against the current corrupt Ishgard rule- as it was shown in the trailer, the Archbishop is being practically puppeteered by the Ascians- the already divided nation becoming spread even thinner as the Iceheart heretics work on all ends as spies.

we can't be sure if they're loyal to any of the families yet. But she is clearly also blessed by Hydaelyn, aswell "hear, feel, think" and being capable of transporting herself to the light side of the rift, she may be a separate entity, similar to. but not quite like the Ascians.

I'd be delighted to hear more variation on theories- if there may infact be some more solid proof I've not yet dug up-

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Originally Posted by Daroshi

I'd be delighted to hear more variation on theories

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I have a few theories about her that may all be true, may all be false, or may be a little of column, little of column b. I suppose I can just throw 'em all down, lol.

1) Iceheart is mostly just an adventurer with the Echo who has more information that most people.

She tells us her birth name and a little history, and acts holier than thou, but doesn't seem as informed as she could be if she was something more human than human. One big hint to me is that nobody seems to recognize her name, meaning she either slipped through the Path of the Twelve's dragnet or she was woken later. Currently, I believe the latter.

2) She used a modified summoning ritual to summon the Essence of Frost into her Echo-unleashed soul.

As far as we know, Saint Shiva the person simply died long ago. Given what we know about the nature of life and death, this implies that her soul was borne through Lifestream back to the Aetherial Realm and has since been part of the cycle. She may have been the first heretic, but was there any hint that she was a primal before then? It sounded to me like they were saying that Iceheart harnessed the zealous belief of the Heretics to her own end, using their zeal to power her transformation. I think the fact that it was Shiva's soul was incidental; that she mainly sought to harness the essence of the Land as her own - deiformed Frost.

My theory is that the Ascian ritual summons an essence without an anchor, creating a glorified elemental that exists solely for self-preservation by aetheral consumption and manipulation of its environment. By modifying the ritual and summoning the essence into a soul (whose boundaries have been removed by the Echo), the essence can be more easily controlled, and also relinquished. The soul becomes a vessel for the essence. For all we know, to some degree and for some civilizations, it may even be that this is how the ritual was intended to be performed.

3) Iceheart herself may be a pawn.

The final quest of Patch 2.3, the Ascians discuss how they need to "nurture the strength of the gifted" to bring about Zodiark's return. They specifically mention the five essences you've humbled so far - Inferno, Vortex, Crag, Whorl, and Levin. Lalabrea then says, "Divine seeds were ever wont to quicken in Eorzea's fertile soil. We need only lead men to the field, and by their eager hands shall a new deity arise." In 2.4, Shiva rises and is defeated, and Nabriales expresses disappointment that Lahabrea will be most pleased. In 2.5, Nabriales says, "I suffered the overweening presence of Lahabrea that men might host the power of gods, only for you to undo my hard work." To me, all of that sounds like they played a big role in the rise of Iceheart, even if she herself doesn't know it.

4) If all of these are true, Patch 2.5 (Pt. II) will include a "What have I done?" moment for Iceheart.

We see in the trailer what looks like Iceheart disabling Ishgard's magickal defenses. Even if Ishgard is being manipulated by the Ascians, if she is, too, then it can't possibly serve anything good. The Ascians are the bringers of chaos and that's exactly what all-out-war will bring.

I harbor suspicions that this is all about The Rejoining - causing enough discord to use the destruction to make whole what was one shattered.

Dang it, I thought this was going to be about those Coerthan Harriers that keep poking around old Camp Revenant's Toll in the Ixali Beast Tribe quests. I've been wondering what the hell exactly they're looking for there for a while now.

Anonymoose, I think you have a too manichean view of the Ascians' actions... Or maybe it's me that's wrong, but let me explain my theories.

There seems to be a conflict between Nabriales and Lahabrea, and Nabriales was unhappy of Shiva being defeated but that doesn't mean he is by her side, or plays with her as he would with a puppet. What Nabriales seems to seek is power, to summon Zodiark maybe, but power for himself before anything else. He stole Louisoix's staff without telling the pthers and so... I feel like Nabriales just hated the fact that there were now two people able to counter them.

Meanwhile, Lahabrea (as well as the white Ascian, whom I forgot the name) is pleased because his main foe, Shiva, allied to the dragoons against Isgard, itself allied with the Ascians, seems not to be understood by our character, and still considered a danger to the Light. If Shiva and the Ascians are foes, and we and Shiva are foes, we're in some way allied to the ascians.

Here is my guess : Shiva is, to Hydaelyn, what the Ascians are to Zodiark, a mortal that obtained such a great power that it became more than that. As our hero was denied a part of Hydaelyn's blessing by Midgardsormr, Shiva might have had the same the same fate. But what she did, saw, or whatever after joining the dragons made her Saint Shiva, a being of power opposed to the Ascians. But, if our hero does not follow her path, it may still be quite neutral about the Ascians, and it is often shown that Lahabrea and the White Ascian want us to join them. So, if we keep fighting Shiva, we help the ascians. If we become allies of Ishgard, as it seems we do, we help the ascians.

So I dont think Shiva is being manipulated, I think we are.

But, what's more interesting is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark seem to be the same kind of deity, and, although they're opposed, the white Ascian seems to believe the Echp, granted by Hydaelyn, will make us receptive of Zodiark's way. So we may wonder, what's the Echo ? The abiloty to see what happened in the past, to see the truth. And what's implied there is that the truth, the awareness of the truth, leads to Zodiark. And while Shiva is the embodiment of Midgardsormr, Ascians are Zodiark's and we are still not determined.

Maybe I'm thinking too much, but to me, we are manipulated by all three "divine" entities, Hydaelyn,Midgardsormr, and Zodiark, and the worst may not be Zodiark...

If something isn't understandable, feel free to ask, english is not my native language and I'l typing on my cellphone, so I can't detail too much x)

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

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Nebralius just proved that not all ascians are on the same page as Lahabrea and Elidibus (The White Ascian). But in all truth, I think every one is being manipulated. Lahaberea has said as much him self that they've had eons to see this plan to fruition so we can't possibly be the 1st Warriors of Light to oppose them. So lets say back in the 5th astral era there were WoLs that tried to stop the flood but failed cause the ascians knew what they'd do because the WoLs in the 4th Astral Era tried to do the same to stop the Earth Quake as did the WoL from the 3,2, and 1st astral Eras.

My theory is that The Ascians were mortal in The 1st Umbral Era which is the start of The Age of Man and the 1st calamity was a massive War between all the races of man. So lets say that 12 or so of them died and Zodiark revives them as immortal spirits promising to give them a new body should they "Rejoin" him with Hydalyn's essence. This would even go into what Rahmu was saying about Light and Darkness being one before the races of man came along. Because it was that 1st calamity's war that ended the Divine Era, caused the twelve to leave, and Likely was the reason Zodiark and Hydalyn became two separate powers.

Its possible that these 6 astral and umbral eras were planned. Not sure why. But there was a prophecy that the 7th astral Era will be eternaI am , but also something about a dark shadow creeping close too.

With each atral/umbral eras being represented by an element what will be next? We're currently under the 7th astral or umbral era

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Originally Posted by myahele

Its possible that these 6 astral and umbral eras were planned. Not sure why. But there was a prophecy that the 7th astral Era will be eternaI am , but also something about a dark shadow creeping close too.

With each atral/umbral eras being represented by an element what will be next? We're currently under the 7th astral or umbral era

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We're still under The 7th Umbral Era. Raoubahn, Merylwyb, and Kan-E were all foolish to think that by simply destroying the Ultima weapon we had ended the Umbral Era. Bahamut was still alive, Odin was and still is walking the shroud, The Ascians were and still are scheming, and we now face invasion from both Garlemauld AND Dravania.

So I would hardly say the 7th Astral Era has arived since a calamity is simply the start of an Umbral Era. An Umbral Era is an Era of Chaos and Strife while an Astral Era is an Era of Peace and Harmony. With Ul'dah on the Verge of Civil War, The Dravanians about to make a massive assault on Ishgaurd, Garlemauld prepairing for a 4th conquest attempt of Eorzia, and Zodiark's imminent revival, I'd say the Era is anything but peaceful.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Its possible that these 6 astral and umbral eras were planned. Not sure why. But there was a prophecy that the 7th astral Era will be eternaI am , but also something about a dark shadow creeping close too.

With each atral/umbral eras being represented by an element what will be next? We're currently under the 7th astral or umbral era

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I think people thought there was only twelve eras because they thought there were only six éléments, but Nabriales's fight proved us that Darkness was to be considered as an element. So we're under the seventh umbral era, an era of Darkness, that is probably supposed to lead to a Astral Era under darkness, aka Zodiark.

But again, I don't think Ascians are all as aged as Lahabrea, Edilibus and, maybe Nabriales. Maybe they're warriors of light of the previous eras converted to Ascians by the original Ascians being Lahabrea and Edlibus, as they want us (warriors of light) to join them.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

So I dont think Shiva is being manipulated, I think we are.

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Perhaps! Or... both! If Lahabrea is to be believed in that the Primals were just a means to an end to quicken the Heart of Sabik, then he manipulated the beast tribes, the Alliance, and the Empire all against each other to get the plan moving as intended. Who knows how many peoples' actions are by design.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

There seems to be a conflict between Nabriales and Lahabrea

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Nebralius just proved that not all ascians are on the same page as Lahabrea and Elidibus (The White Ascian).

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My impression is that the Ascians shared a similar goal but didn't necessarily agree on the same plan to achieve said goal. I think Lahabrea positioned himself into a leadership role and took charge, and the others didn't really do anything to stop him. Maybe some are more submissive, maybe some didn't have a better idea, maybe some thought Lahabrea's plan was alright. Nabriales, I think, wanted Lahabrea's plan to stumble, but wanted his contributions to it to succeed, thus giving him more Ascian street cred and letting him rise closer to Zodiark's right hand.

If all of this is true, I think Nabriales helped manipulate the power of a primal into Iceheart's possession, but in doing so furthered Lahabrea's plan to have an Echo user serve as a divine vessel. That's only going to make Lahabrea look better in the eyes of Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Its possible that these 6 astral and umbral eras were planned. <...> what will be next? We're currently under the 7th astral or umbral era

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Eorzeans actually believed for a while that the Sixth Astral Era would be eternal because they were out of elements. The Seventh Verse of the Divine Chronicles (foretelling a Seventh Umbral Era that would amount to "oblivion") was found later on, and some didn't even believe it was real.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

We're still under The 7th Umbral Era. Raoubahn, Merylwyb, and Kan-E were all foolish

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I thought this, as well, so we asked Koji Fox about it at Fan Festival Las Vegas. The measurement of time is a human thing, and humans get to decide how to divide it. It's the Seventh Astral Era, peaceful or not. Basically, the leaders of the Grand Companies seized on a moment when we triumphed against all odds to say, "We will be without hope no longer," and attempt to get the people to refuse defeat. By declaring it a new era, they were encouraging people to believe, "We beat the VIIth, we beat the Calamity, we beat the XIVth, and we're not going to lose to whatever comes next."

That said, a predictable cycle of eras, foretold by prophecy, that followed the order of the elemental wheel is miiighty suspect.

The answer lies in the game's word choices.

What to us is Calamity is to the Ascians Ardor, and it is an attempt at the Rejoining, a way to make whole what was once shattered, changing the very planet and its people to a form that once was and always should have been. So far, the masses have survived the Rejoining seven times, which has caused our souls to become weak. There is Light, there is Darkness. Some lines suggest that balance is incredibly important, but the last few patches have also done a lot to emphasize that Darkness is Void and Void exists to swallow all that is. Even Nabriales himself said, "Insatiable hunger of the void! Devour all light and return this world to perfect darkness!"

Now, Nabriales was in the middle of a spontaneous power grab. He saw that the Blessing of Light no longer anchored itself to Hydaelyn's Champion and because "the seal was broken," took the opportunity to manifest in our world himself and claim Louisoix's staff to bring about the next Rejoining. It wasn't part of their plan, he just seized an opportunity (and was destroyed for it).

How does it all fit together in a way that it makes sense for Nabriales to talk about returning all to perfect Darkness, while Lahabrea and Elidibus (the only two Ascians who are "of this world" according to Nabriales) talk about the planet recovering to it's original form by exorcising Hydaelyn, considering that they all talk about Zodark reigning in the end?

EDIT
The artbook stated that the Chrysalis, or Ascian Hall, was built by the Ascians thoughts. Zodark's world could simply be dead. If souls live and die and come to and from the Aetherial realm, perhaps something similar happens to the worlds that arise from the Crystals. They could just be trying to resurrect a lost entity and let His thoughts re-create a lost world. I'm doing some research now, comparing some translations I haven't before. We'll see what comes of that...

Also, I thought maybe the number Twelve didn't apply to the Ascians because there were fourteen of them, but if two of them were originally of our world... we're back with twelve. Twelve beings who have a rift with humanity... for a reason we could see only if we mastered the Echo, which allows us to perceive them, even if we all perceive them differently... Bah. Somewhere in all these musings, there's a good theory, lol.

i wonder what are harriers/herretics doing in mor dhona? There's a bunch of them stationed in the prayer stone of thaliak (?)/ grave of moenbryda. Additionally, that stone not only over looks midgardsomnr it also is the same mark as tupsimati. Makes we wonder if Lady Iceheart traversed there at one point and either communicated with Midgarsomnr via echo, or so whatever?

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Originally Posted by myahele

i wonder what are harriers/herretics doing in mor dhona? There's a bunch of them stationed in the prayer stone of thaliak (?)/ grave of moenbryda. Additionally, that stone not only over looks midgardsomnr it also is the same mark as tupsimati. Makes we wonder if Lady Iceheart traversed there at one point and either communicated with Midgarsomnr via echo, or so whatever?

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I still don't understand why they keep rummaging around the ruins of the old camp. I must've driven them off sixty or so times by now. Then again....Fyrbryda's sister has been due to give birth for months now...

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I still don't understand why they keep rummaging around the ruins of the old camp. I must've driven them off sixty or so times by now. Then again....Fyrbryda's sister has been due to give birth for months now...

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It's Bonnie Swanson!

While I do agree that Lahabrea pushed himself into a leadership role, I thought it was because his power exceeded that of others. As stated by Nabriales. So that he was basically one of the stronger Ascians (being able to interfere with us directly even with the blessing protecting us, which stated by Nabriales, he could not) and one of the more aggressive ones, seeing how Elidibus (?), the white ascian, could overcome the blessing yet was rather passive up until now and still is.

I still wonder how Shiva became a Primal. Can dead turn into primals? Or was she made a primal when she was still alive? Maybe in the moment she died, she turned into a primal? Is what happened to Loisioux (excuse my spelling if its wrong lol) the only way to turn a humanoid being into a primal? That would mean the time shiva "transformed" into lady frost, she needed a lot of prayers and a lot of aether. WHAT IF in the moment her life was over, the heretics were grieving and -praying- and that the aether in the whatever-realm-shiva-is-in-now was enough to turn her into a primal? BUT how did she disappear then again? Or it could be that I just missed the explanaton on how she became a primal.
I wish I could stirr the pot rather than guess what the ingredients are but I always start wondering.

It's not necessarily that Saint Shiva became a primal, but rather her myth and legend was summoned as one by Iceheart. It's like how the Mooglesguard manifested the legend of Good King Moggle Mog XII into existence, or the Meracydians called the memory of the first brood to counter a voidsent-powered Allagan invasion. No doubt the other beast tribe primals have a similar mythological basis, they just weren't particularly elaborated.

As for Louisoix, from what I can tell he merged with the failed summoning of the Twelve to become the primal of a Realm Reborn. Then again, perhaps Saint Shiva underwent apotheosis in a similar manner during her lifetime.

I believe Nabriales mentioned that Lahabrea and Elidibus were from our world while the other Ascians weren't and that's why they can get around the blessing. Considering the similarities that the Ascians ablilities have with the Sahagin elder we fought who had the echo, it could be that Lahabrea and Elidibus were individuals gifted with the echo who were inducted into the ranks of the Ascians. Perhaps they could have even once been Warriors of Light. Elidibus certainly seems to feel that Minfilia and the PC will eventually come round to the Ascians way of thinking.

As for Shiva, I honestly don't think we know enough about the primals to be sure how particular primals come about.

EDIT: A lot of sentiments here are about to be echoed from the post above me. Belhi beat me to it while I was writing (and nailed it).

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Originally Posted by Cherub

As stated by Nabriales.

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Nabriales didn't necessarily say that they had more power, but that they were different. The Blessing of Light was connected to some sort of seal that barred entry to this world from the primary group of Ascians. Lahabrea and Elidibus were not subject to the ban because they are from this world. The rest of the Ascian council originated in another, or perhaps in others.

What's going on likely has to do with the coinciding forces of transcendence on some fronts and reincarnation on others.

Taken along with the subject of dimensional compression, that should give some hints about the essential nature of the Rejoining.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

from what I can tell he merged with the failed summoning of the Twelve <...> Then again, perhaps Saint Shiva underwent apotheosis

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They way it was explained in Coil, Louisoix's transformation was a direct result of a coalescence of the aether that was left formless and free-floating because the ritual was interrupted, the prayers of thousands, and Louisoix's own hope that the realm be reborn. Think about it this way: there are thousands of people praying that Louisoix will save them. The aether latches onto that prayer, and (due to the content of the prayers) becomes focused on Louisoix. At the same time, Louisoix sees the world in flames and hopes that it will be reborn. A scholar, the first thing that comes to his mind is the legend of the phoenix, rising from the ashes to live again. Perhaps that's why his form didn't appear particularly bird-like right away, it needed time to set in.

I can't speak for Shiva - but the game did specify that Louisoix became a primal and Iceheart was a host vessel.

I imagine that's an important distinction.

Excuse my wording! Using the word "stated" wasn't a good Idea I guess hehe.
And yea I totally forgot about King Moogle Mog XII there for a second. Which only adds to the confusion lol

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I can't speak for Shiva - but the game did specify that Louisoix became a primal and Iceheart was a host vessel.

I imagine that's an important distinction.

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Exactly. Which is what leads me to believe that Saint Shiva had, in fact, become a primal beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Daroshi

But she is clearly also blessed by Hydaelyn, aswell "hear, feel, think" and being capable of transporting herself to the light side of the rift, she may be a separate entity, similar to. but not quite like the Ascians.

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She's definitely on a whole other level with the echo than the player, that's for sure. I suspect this is why she's able to do all the nifty things she does, and why everyone who cares about the echo's power within us wants to see it grow stronger.

I'm not sure If I would consider Iceheart necessarily superior in the echo to our characters though she quite likely understands it better. It seems strange she would summon a primal when doing so seems counter to our actions. If anything you would think she would be more incline to work with the Scions rather than stealing from them and summoning a Primal seems completely against one of our characters main duties as the Warrior of Light.

Considering the Ascians rampant spreading of the knowledge of summoning, I get the feeling that summoning puts a lot of strain of Hydaelyn, probably cause Primals tend to feel on Aether. Summoning one plays right into the Ascians plans.

I think Iceheart's intentions are on the right path. Her methods however I suspect are flawed.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

It seems strange she would summon a primal when doing so seems counter to our actions. If anything you would think she would be more incline to work with the Scions rather than stealing from them and summoning a Primal seems completely against one of our characters main duties as the Warrior of Light.

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Though, just because one possesses the power of the echo doesn't mean they're a Warriors of Light, or that they're well-intentioned even. In 1.0 it was made pretty clear that echo users were using this power to serve themselves.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Considering the Ascians rampant spreading of the knowledge of summoning, I get the feeling that summoning puts a lot of strain of Hydaelyn, probably cause Primals tend to feel on Aether. Summoning one plays right into the Ascians plans.

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It definitely does fatigue Hydaelyn, as shown in a certain cutscene, and that's exactly what the Ascians want. So, again, why...? More importantly, who influenced and gave her the necessary knowledge?

She states that what she does is 'For Eorzea, For Hydaelyn.' This makes me suspect she is, at least to some extent, on team Hydaelyn. I felt she genuinely felt what she was doing was for the greater good. It suggest that while we are ignorant of important things she understands, the same maybe true for her.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

She states that what she does is 'For Eorzea, For Hydaelyn.' This makes me suspect she is, at least to some extent, on team Hydaelyn. I felt she genuinely felt what she was doing was for the greater good. It suggest that while we are ignorant of important things she understands, the same maybe true for her.

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That's a thought that occured to me as well. We've fought the Ascians no less than 4 times directly by the time we meet Iceheart but she hasn't ergo she may actually not know what their goal is. (Then again we don't really either but at least we know they're the "bad guys")

So it could be the Ascians are taking advantage of her and the quote "What have I done!" in the 2.55 CS could mean she figures out she has been duped but not until it's too late. I view her less as "Evil" and more of a Misguided Pawn in the Ascians' "Big Schem".

I remembered that when Hydaelyn speaks with us for the 1st time in 2.0 there were others as well. I wonder if Lady iceheart experienced something similar to the beginner city state msq that we did, but on Ishgard?

Except, she never had the attention of the Scions and sided with the heretics/dragons. That more or less made it easier for the Asciens (Elidibus?) to set her on the path the she is on now.

I just had a crazy thought. <Gets tinfoil hat>

What if the Ascians plan to instigate the war in such a way to make the Ishgardians desperate causing the religiously minded to attempt to find salvation by summoning Halone! I could so see that dodgy old Bishop doing that! Ishgard knows that civilised races can do it now and they would certainly have a lot of crystals available!

The whole Iceheart thing was just to seed the idea and help make Ishgard more desperate.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

What if the Ascians plan to instigate

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This was my train of thought. 'cause that's what the Ascians do, instigate. The more primals summoned, the more help they have sowing chaos and draining the aetherstream. They've succeeded in convincing the beast tribes and possibly Iceheart (maybe even the moogles?!), there's nothing they wouldn't gain by having both the Dravanians and Ishgardians summon two more.