Raiding without caster (no magic dmg or AOE LB) --- DEVs plz look!

Hi!

In the Expansion I want to try Machinist and make that my new main. The problem being the current game-structure. Will the Machinist be physical or magical? Most likely physical right? And what will then happen to the magical only parts in raids like the cube in T11, adds in T13 and so on. Also there is the issue with the LB, will bards and machinists get a AOE LB? (needed för T10)

How will the raids be constructed in Heavensward? Will you still be forced to have a caster (BLM or SMN) in raid for magical damage and AOE LB? Or can a makeup like Machinist, Bard, Melee, Melee work?

I sort of need to know this before the expansion hits since I want to hit the ground running on expansion day and hopefully try out the new raids the same week.

Thank you for your time and I really hope DEVs will give at least a pointer to the answer like: "No, in Heavensward you will not be forced to have BLM / SMN in a raid group to conquer it."

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Originally Posted by Mishayangg

"No, in Heavensward you will not be forced to have BLM / SMN in a raid group to conquer it."

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You don't need a caster lb to clear fcob, I know at least one melee x2/brd x2 group that cleared fcob months ago, though a caster makes certain turns/situations easier.

But besides this, it would be an awful decision from a pure party setup standpoint. How it is now, every job/type of job brings something to the table that might be desirable for a raidgroup, melee has the highest dps, caster has magic based dps obviously + aoe lb, pld and war have their own useful abilities and situations where they can shine, so do whm and sch. For this reason party construction is fairly balanced in this game and most groups you see have a pretty similar setup of pld/war/melee(x1 or x2)/caster(x1 or x2)/brd/whm/sch. SE does a really good job at giving the jobs unique strenghts and designing content in a way that everyone can shine. Why would you want to change such a good thing?

Imagine fcob would not have enemys that are weak vs magic damage and aoe lb would be accessible for other jobs than casters. You would see melee x3 + brd dps setups exclusively, because why would you sacrifice dps if you don't gain a certain amount of utility? Would be terrible in terms of job balancing.

I agree, having 5 physical dps and 2 magical is not good design so here's to hoping machinist is magical!

Well our static works with 2 melee and 2 bards mostly because that's the jobs people want to play and we do this for fun so ideal setups are not a must have.

As for machinist I expect it might be like nin. Some attacks will be physical some magical damage(I love when nins figure this out during levi ex). And I expect similar for dark night.

Everything in the game can be done with a 4x Physical DPS setup, it's just not ideal or very efficient to set yourself up with such a limitation.

Other than Teraflare in T13, I don't think any fight in the game actually requires LB to win (except early progression of new raid content, since you are undergeared).

It's like how people thought Ifrit HM and T5 wasn't possible without caster LB in 2.0. They both obviously were, but since it required an approach not found in youtube video guides, people pretty much just gave up entirely - since that's the kind of playerbase we have ;)

T10: You simply burn 1 add and melee LB the other. It can be done without LB at this point, though.
T11: The Cube takes 50% damage from melee, but also has 50% of the hp that the Sphere has, so a 2:2 melee split will kill each add at roughly the same speed.
T13: The add that switches between physical/magical damage has ridiculously low hp, you can melt it in like 2 GCDs with everyone on it.

It was my understanding that right around heavensward they were going to make job-specific (ish) lb? the point being that certain aspects of this convo may change dramatically, but i was under the impression that as a gun class machinist would be physical. then again i was under the impression that smn pets would be at least as cool in this game as they were in 11 so where is your logic now? what i do know for certain, in my gut, is that no matter how the gun class is tooled it will be an aoe lb. or ill eat my lance.

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Originally Posted by Frozenbear

It was my understanding that right around heavensward they were going to make job-specific (ish) lb? the point being that certain aspects of this convo may change dramatically, but i was under the impression that as a gun class machinist would be physical.

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So yes, job specific LB's ARE coming. SE has stated that BRD would be the first class to get one since the healing LB doesn't make much sense.

As far as whether or not machinist will be physical/magical, it is VERY likely that it will be physical. this will give:
3 melee DPS - MNK, DRG, NIN
2 magic ranged DPS - BLM, SMN
2 physical ranged DPS - MCN, BRD

This balance looks really solid to me.
The most important thing that SE needs to look at as far as balancing in Heavensward is to give progression raid parties an alternative to BRD. I would love to see SMN completely reworked into more of a support class so that BRD would have some competition.

Yuck no I hope MCH is physical, like less-support bard...

they probably have a few magical attacks like all jobs though.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Well our static works with 2 melee and 2 bards mostly because that's the jobs people want to play and we do this for fun so ideal setups are not a must have.

As for machinist I expect it might be like nin. Some attacks will be physical some magical damage(I love when nins figure this out during levi ex). And I expect similar for dark night.

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I'm glad some people understand the point of gaming ^^

This goes both ways, its very annoying you need both to clear content without too much stress.

Content should be designed so it is clear-able 'for most' with any DPS make up you wish.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

This goes both ways, its very annoying you need both to clear content without too much stress.

Content should be designed so it is clear-able 'for most' with any DPS make up you wish.

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It is o.O Im with Asny in static... as mentioned 2 melee 2 bard static and maintank war. Cleared T9 with 3melee 2 bard setup, Cleared T5 in 1 tank 6 sch 1 melee setup. Cleared t5 and rammy in 4 bard setup..... What fight you think of that isnt clearable in ANY setup? The point is if you are common with mechanics and invest the time to UNDERSTAND em you dont need to care for setups. (well ok for sch runs overgearing is a must have :P)

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

It is o.O Im with Asny in static... as mentioned 2 melee 2 bard static and maintank war. Cleared T9 with 3melee 2 bard setup, Cleared T5 in 1 tank 6 sch 1 melee setup. Cleared t5 and rammy in 4 bard setup..... What fight you think of that isnt clearable in ANY setup? The point is if you are common with mechanics and invest the time to UNDERSTAND em you dont need to care for setups. (well ok for sch runs overgearing is a must have :P)

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Lol t9 and t5 you're funny...........please don't start with me about understand mechanics etc and then ref t9 and t5.

Lets see a grp clear t13 with 4 SMNs....... without being overgeared.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Lol t9 and t5 you're funny...........please don't start with me about understand mechanics etc and then ref t9 and t5.

Lets see a grp clear t13 with 4 SMNs....... without being overgeared.

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Weeeeeeelll, 3 SMN, 1BRD. Mana song all the time :D Sounds like an interesting setup, and the WHM can go nutz on heals :D Cure 2 all the day. SCH goes DPS-only. Sounds legit to me ;)

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Lol t9 and t5 you're funny...........please don't start with me about understand mechanics etc and then ref t9 and t5.

Lets see a grp clear t13 with 4 SMNs....... without being overgeared.

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Ok let me feel shame to be casual >.>
And no I doubt our group will have a caster either way when we reach T13. Im guessing without knowing any mechanic of T13 (also pls dont spoil) that nonmoving LB could be an issue. But well once you mentioned it I bet some ppl take it as a challenge :P

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

Ok let me feel shame to be casual >.>
And no I doubt our group will have a caster either way when we reach T13. Im guessing without knowing any mechanic of T13 (also pls dont spoil) that nonmoving LB could be an issue. But well once you mentioned it I bet some ppl take it as a challenge :P

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Sorry if I came off as a dick, I have a habit of flaring up when ever I suspect attitude :) Sorry for that.

It's more the need for burst damage, also melees can keep up buffs which help each other's dps, kinda sad that casters don't have the same.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Sorry if I came off as a dick, I have a habit of flaring up when ever I suspect attitude :) Sorry for that.

It's more the need for burst damage, also melees can keep up buffs which help each other's dps, kinda sad that casters don't have the same.

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Dont worry I didnt take it personal :D

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Lol t9 and t5 you're funny...........please don't start with me about understand mechanics etc and then ref t9 and t5.

Lets see a grp clear t13 with 4 SMNs....... without being overgeared.

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I know its not exactly the same argument you're making but Lucrezia has a video of a t13 kill with 3 pre-buff dragoons in vit spec and a bard. Drg dps wasn't the worst in the world but it was significantly lower to nin and mnk, now couple that with every other negative (needing to be in vit spec for starters) the huge dps decrease brings you to Werhusky's point. If you can perform the mechanics perfectly then any party comp could do it.

Now 4 smns I dunno but, 3 smns and a bard could do it too if a group of good players decided to take a shot at it. If they need burst they could hold and co-ordinate festers. I could see it be done without full i130 gear.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

snip

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Hey its cool, thanks for sharing that :) But yeah that is my point, content shouldnt dictate you have to gimp your char to do content.

I believe it was said the job's will have specific limit breaks and probably be re-worked.
This was said sometime ago and thought back then it would of been in 2.4 so probably in 3.0 or later now.
Perhaps Bard will finally have a real usefull limit break that does damage.
Rain of Death x50 ?
kidding
But i sure hope some changes are made.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I believe it was said the job's will have specific limit breaks and probably be re-worked.
This was said sometime ago and thought back then it would of been in 2.4 so probably in 3.0 or later now.
Perhaps Bard will finally have a real usefull limit break that does damage.
Rain of Death x50 ?
kidding
But i sure hope some changes are made.

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Unfortunately i talked to a friend i trust and he told me that the lvl 3 lb is the only thing being changed ;/ but we will see

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Originally Posted by Frozenbear

Unfortunately i talked to a friend i trust and he told me that the lvl 3 lb is the only thing being changed ;/ but we will see

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No they are removing the heal lb but with what there is no info for bards. What they are doing though is making each LB3 unique to the job - basically each one will have it's own unique animation and name.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

No they are removing the heal lb but with what there is no info for bards. What they are doing though is making each LB3 unique to the job - basically each one will have it's own unique animation and name.

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hey im just happy bard is getting a damage lb, i have no expectations just high hopes ^^

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Originally Posted by Frozenbear

hey im just happy bard is getting a damage lb

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I'm not. I want that heal lb3 cause it saved enough runs to make it worth it.

I am also on the wanting damage limit break,
i mean you have 2 healers for the heal lb which is more then enough.
Granted a few times Bard lb has helped, they are far and few between.
Perhaps since Bard is still support have lb1 and 2 a damage lb and lb3 a heal?
I really do not know but will see what SE does.

This might be a stupid question, but why are all here talking like 2 melee jobs are a must?

I can understand that in the current state of the game, at least the most progression based statics wants to use 2 melee for more dps... but who is to say having 1 melee - 1 BLM/SMN - 1 BRD - 1 MCH isn't going to provide the same amount of dps? or help in another way...

Things are going to change in the expansion, and it's not only 3 new jobs coming, all jobs are getting new abilities and traits, and maybe other changes... Who knows, maybe they will even change party size to 9 players or something...

Wouldn't it be cool if Machinist had Physical auto attacks, but most of its abilties were magical in nature? Like Fire Ammo, and Turrets shooting lasers as magical damage and stuff?

Machinist is supposed to work with attachements on their weapon, wouldn't surprise me much to get a job that can change its damage type on the fly at some point.

So 3 pages of post with speculations and derailing of the thread huh? Guess I expected too much. But seriously, will there really really be 5 physical dps vs 2 magical??? Can we get a simple answer to this simple question?

Physical
Ninja
Monk
Dragoon
Bard
Machinist

Magical
Summoner
Blackmage

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Originally Posted by Mishayangg

will there really really be 5 physical dps vs 2 magical???

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Yes.

/10char