Suggestion: Single Player "Tutorial" Dungeons (no rewards)

How many times have you been told or heard it said, "You should really go watch a video."?

I will gladly explain something to someone, I will never ridicule them for not watching a video, but I personally almost always watch a vid for any new encounter.

Let's just face the facts here though. There is a huge divide in the community right now. Not necessarily over the sentiment you should always watch a video first (which there is) but over player skill and willingness to study for the sake of enjoyment. Some players are simply going to enter an instance without watching a video. They have that right. Players also have the right to say they don't believe they should have to explain every single mechanic to someone who hasn't watched a video. It's a lot different explaining an encounter to someone who's watched a video when you're just filling in the gaps, as opposed to 3-4 people who have no idea or strategy on how to detonate the bombs in The Minstrel's Ballad for example (which is really a mild example compared to most of the end game content).

For those who might say, "It's an online game....you have access....go watch a video." That's not always true. Some players tend to forget that not everyone is playing on a PC. They might be parents enjoying their free time after a hard days work on their ps3/ps4, while their kid is in the den doing their homework online. Sure it might be easy to say, "Hold on child, let me look this up first." However, as a parent, I wouldn't do that because homework is more important and it sets a bad example. Could I just wait to do the encounter? Sure. But there is a better way:

• Implement a tab similar to the join in progress tab that would say "single player training".
  
• The player could go into any encounter they like with infinite health and a significant damage modifier.
  
• There would be absolutely no reward from doing this outside of maybe a couple mildly significant achievements.

Maybe the implementation could be different. What I am suggesting I am suggesting because it seems like the path of least resistance. I'm sure SE would want to avoid making "learning dungeons" from scratch at all costs, and I wouldn't blame them.

For anyone who might think, "This seems unnecessary" I respectively disagree. While the jobs are all very well balanced for the most part, the content is heavily reliant on instant death/near death mechanics and group coordination. As of now we can assume this is probably not going to change.

Worried your favorite uploader will stop making vids? Don't be. There would still be a need for people to go online and watch a vid in a serious static environment. There would be a substantial difference in going into something solo, and then watching how it translates to a group environment.

Imo, this "wall" is what is unnecessarily dividing the community and helping to enable the toxicity already running rampant in online gaming. I think it would be an easy idea to implement, and imo, has become almost necessary considering the nature in which the end game content is designed.

Thoughts?

I always watch videos as well, and have never had anyone tell me to do so. I do it because personally I don't want to hinder my party by not knowing what to do. I don't care if people don't watch videos, but I will always watch them.

But anyway, on to your idea.

My only thought on it is what makes you think anyone would actually use this "training"? I've seen many people say they don't want to watch videos because they would rather go in not knowing what will happen, and enjoy learning from wiping, than knowing what is to come. So this training wouldn't really do much for those types of players, and it seems like more of a hassle than anything really. I can't see people spending their time playing through a tutorial of a dungeon they can just queue up for and just ask people what they need to do, like it is now with those who don't watch videos.

Technically, the guildhests are tutorials since they teach the players various mechanics they could face and the final one is a full party instance that teaches the tanks to split up and get all the mobs.


The only reason everyone is in the "video or GTFO" mindset is they already learned how to do the content and don't want to be held back by people who are new since it would put a damper on efficient farming. Speed runs also don't help this matter.

I think its a great idea. I still havent gotten my titan ex clear. Ive watched the videos countless times but Id rather practice. That said, for your idea to work, it would have to follow the mechanics. So for me, i would still need a tank for positioning. I couldnt practice as bard without one.

Thank you very much for reading the original post in it's entirety Fang :)

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I always watch videos as well, and have never had anyone tell me to do so. I do it because personally I don't want to hinder my party by not knowing what to do. I don't care if people don't watch videos, but I will always watch them.

But anyway, on to your idea.

My only thought on it is what makes you think anyone would actually use this "training"? I've seen many people say they don't want to watch videos because they would rather go in not knowing what will happen, and enjoy learning from wiping, than knowing what is to come. So this training wouldn't really do much for those types of players, and it seems like more of a hassle than anything really. I can't see people spending their time playing through a tutorial of a dungeon they can just queue up for and just ask people what they need to do, like it is now with those who don't watch videos.

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In reference to boldface:

• It seems that everyone says they'll watch a video if they know not watching one will hinder the ability to progress. I'm sure doing something in game first hand that wouldn't take forever would be an ample if not preferred choice, especially if it relatively achieves a similar goal.
  
• Many people do enjoy learning from 1st hand experience. Some people do not retain information very well when watching an instructional video. They are not "visual learners" so to speak. "Hands on" is preferred by many people.
  
• That's really the crux of it isn't it? People just freely show up to some random or partially random PUG group and say, "Hey I'm new. Anything I should know?". While my husband and I will always be the ones welcoming those people invitingly by saying, "Hey hey! Fresh meat lol. J/K, here's the breakdown......" I cannot say we are exactly enthusiastic about doing it. We do it out of courtesy to other players because we respect them as a collective.

Let's look at the simple proposed solution again:

• Implement a tab similar to the join in progress tab that would say "single player training".
  
• The player could go into any encounter they like with infinite health and a significant damage modifier.
  
• There would be absolutely no reward from doing this outside of maybe a couple mildly significant achievements.

I mean...that's it. And when I say infinite health I mean like a permanent "Holmgang" effect in a way. That way you can see the severity of certain attacks by your decrease in HP.

When I say a "significant damage modifier" I mean it. I mean like doing Wanderer's Palace in about 5 minutes. It would let you see what's going on and why. If you wanted to slow down and see what you need to do more in depth, you could slow down and take your time. That way the control is in your hands. Of course you would be able to leave the dungeon without a penalty too.

I know I said this earlier but I'll say it again. There seems to be a serious discontent for people who have not watched a video. I can't tell you how many times someone threatens AFK or just flat out leaves after one wipe. People seem to take the time to insult new players, but not many take the time to explain the mechanics in depth.

This attitude from what may or may not be a rising demographic in the community turns people off. I remember one time my husband was doing something around the house and I had a brand new tank in Aurum Vale. A healer and dps quit in the first room. I asked my husband to come in as a dps and help him out because he kept saying, "Please man, this is my first time." He had to keep saying that from all the trolling.

He comes in on his Bard, marks everything, explains every pull, even pulls most of the first room to show him. Before you knew it, that tank was tanking everything like a damn CHAMP. It was beautiful. He thanked us profusely afterwards. It's a crucial dungeon when getting to 50 ya know?

I think we all know though, there are A LOT of players who are not as patient. Heck, they could even make it mandatory for every new dungeon before you go live. The only requirement could be: Go in for 2 minutes....that's it. At least that way, you know the new person at least knew the beginning while you explained the first boss while killing trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Technically, the guildhests are tutorials since they teach the players various mechanics they could face and the final one is a full party instance that teaches the tanks to split up and get all the mobs.


The only reason everyone is in the "video or GTFO" mindset is they already learned how to do the content and don't want to be held back by people who are new since it would put a damper on efficient farming. Speed runs also don't help this matter.

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I agree with that, but it doesn't explain something like the bombs in Ultima HM. Only a person, a video, or getting lucky going in blind will do that.

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Originally Posted by Cherryblossoms

I think its a great idea. I still havent gotten my titan ex clear. Ive watched the videos countless times but Id rather practice. That said, for your idea to work, it would have to follow the mechanics. So for me, i would still need a tank for positioning. I couldnt practice as bard without one.

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That's why I suggested having infinite health. I added a "Holmgang" type of effect in a later post lol. I was thinking the exact same thing when I thought of this xD!

And thank you so much :o

Change this tutorial dungeon to one that teaches players how to actually play, and it'll be perfect IMO. Because seriously, DPS not using DoTs/combos/positionals, tanks not popping cooldowns/managing hatred properly, and healers just spamming their attack moves/spamming Adlo or Cure 2? THOSE are the people who need to be trained by tutorial places.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Change this tutorial dungeon to one that teaches players how to actually play, and it'll be perfect IMO. Because seriously, DPS not using DoTs/combos/positionals, tanks not popping cooldowns/managing hatred properly, and healers just spamming their attack moves/spamming Adlo or Cure 2? THOSE are the people who need to be trained by tutorial places.

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Tyvm :D I think so too ^^

But man, what are ya really gonna do lol? Will this teach people to play? Hardly. Like Miles said there's already guildheists. I say "tutorial" but I guess I mean "mode". I thought that this would be something EXTREMELY easy for Square Enix to implement. Hardly any coding for such a huge benefit would surely be beneficial.

The need to watch a video or have someone explain something, in detail, maybe a few times is something that should really be addressed by now. This would be an easy fix. I don't see what in the world it would hurt either ya know?

I think something like practicing the dungeon with infinite health destroys the point of everything tbh. Sure there is only so much you can learn by watching videos but completely taking out the challenge of learning all the mechanics and how to deal with them with the threat of a wipe is the whole point of running dungeons in MMO's. You go through the stress of defeat and it makes victory all that sweeter. Take that away and you just cater to the shallow "i want to beat everything right now" crowd. Challenge is a good thing you need to set goals for yourself and work on them not faceroll everything with nothing in your way.

I think guildhests and stuff already serve as a tutorial but people just zergstomp them without really understanding the mechanics so maybe some single player tutorials could work not for actual content because that would be stupid but just a tutorial that teaches you about your class and how to use it in a group because there are people who struggle to learn what all their skills do and how to use them effectively with others (Bards especially struggle i mean how many times did you hear "But you never told me to play any songs" on a run? How many times did you get a raise but no follow up heals and protect reapplied?). If would benefit everyone for people to get used to their class and avoiding boss mechanics without others to carry them. That doesn't mean they should expect the game to carry them by handing them everything though.

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

I think something like practicing the dungeon with infinite health destroys the point of everything tbh. Sure there is only so much you can learn by watching videos but completely taking out the challenge of learning all the mechanics and how to deal with them with the threat of a wipe is the whole point of running dungeons in MMO's. You go through the stress of defeat and it makes victory all that sweeter. Take that away and you just cater to the shallow "i want to beat everything right now" crowd. Challenge is a good thing you need to set goals for yourself and work on them not faceroll everything with nothing in your way.

I think guildhests and stuff already serve as a tutorial but people just zergstomp them without really understanding the mechanics so maybe some single player tutorials could work not for actual content because that would be stupid but just a tutorial that teaches you about your class and how to use it in a group because there are people who struggle to learn what all their skills do and how to use them effectively with others (Bards especially struggle i mean how many times did you hear "But you never told me to play any songs" on a run? How many times did you get a raise but no follow up heals and protect reapplied?). If would benefit everyone for people to get used to their class and avoiding boss mechanics without others to carry them. That doesn't mean they should expect the game to carry them by handing them everything though.

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Tyvm for the feedback ;) I'll address what's in bold:

That's exactly the point. There would be no challenge, only education. I mentioned a couple times that there would be no reward. The point isn't to gain something tangible, but to acquire knowledge you can use to gain said tangible items.

Again, that's the intended purpose. Never been to Hullbreaker? Go in "single player mode" faceroll your way to the last boss so you can experiment hoping around the islands before you eventually go, "Ahhhh....I get it".

Miles already brought up guildheists, and we all know doing guildheists do nothing for mechanics not explained in them like, again, something to the effect of the bombs in Ultima HM.

I agree. But this alternative would hand them virtually nothing but knowledge in return.

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Thank you for the feed back...lmao....Moondoggie :D However, there is only one point to the proposed idea:

Give us an alternative in-game for the obvious need to watch a video from an outside source. The mechanics demand that you either read up, have them explained to you, get lucky on a carry, or form a learning party.

Great idea :D + 1 from me

One of the things to note is that a lot of mechanics simply couldn't be done solo. Take Devour in T6 as an example - that's something that you have to understand how it works and be coordinated with your team - if you go in single player with no allies you'd literally never learn anything except that every once in a while the boss eats you, stuns you, and throws you out. To also borrow T6, look at Thorny Vines, etc.

These can't be done simply via "go into the fight with infinite HP".

SE is finding ways to teach players more complex mechanics though - largely by having similar but far less dangerous variations (See WoD's Atomos for the aforementioned Devour!). They'll never be able to teach the full 'method' for more complex fights though, because that's something that is developped by players. And yeah, there's absolutely a lot more that can be done to teach players just generally How To Not Suck At The Game... but simply doing a "go in face first on your own" doesn't teach a lot of the fights that require actual learning.

I have always hated when I tell a party that it's my first run through a dungeon, and I take the time to ask for tips on bosses, and the only reply I get is "Didn't you watch a video?"

Maybe it's me, but I enjoy going through a dungeon or a raid without knowing everything that is going to happen. I like watching the cutscenes and seeing the mob I'm going to kill in its full glory. I only watch the CS on the first time through, and I do read up on how to beat each boss. I just don't like watching someone else play the whole thing before I have a chance to experience it.

Just my two cents... cheers!

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

One of the things to note is that a lot of mechanics simply couldn't be done solo. Take Devour in T6 as an example - that's something that you have to understand how it works and be coordinated with your team - if you go in single player with no allies you'd literally never learn anything except that every once in a while the boss eats you, stuns you, and throws you out. To also borrow T6, look at Thorny Vines, etc.

These can't be done simply via "go into the fight with infinite HP".

SE is finding ways to teach players more complex mechanics though - largely by having similar but far less dangerous variations (See WoD's Atomos for the aforementioned Devour!). They'll never be able to teach the full 'method' for more complex fights though, because that's something that is developped by players. And yeah, there's absolutely a lot more that can be done to teach players just generally How To Not Suck At The Game... but simply doing a "go in face first on your own" doesn't teach a lot of the fights that require actual learning.

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Thank you for the feedback. I agree with what you are saying. The simplicity of my idea is not teach anyone anything, but only to give them exposure.

This idea is not an idea to restructure any tutorials (guildheists), as it would be implausible to try and do so for every encounter.

The idea would result in something like this in Garuda EX: "Okay, so what exactly does the spiny do?" Then the group could go about figuring it out on their own and/or give an explanation that isn't detail intensive.

The idea is also designed with minimal effort from SE in mind. They could design a tutorial for every single dungeon and encounter, but I think we can agree that is very unlikely. This idea would achieve much with little effort.

Thanks to all for reading, +1s

Is this actually a thing endgame? I've just got to Prae and noticed that the community suddenly seemed to turn blunt at CM. Does this sort of thing continue into the later game? What happens to wanting to figure out a dungeon as you go along?

No one cares about learning blind. If there's a video, you'll be told to watch before you're "allowed" to play so that people don't wipe or take longer to farm items.

Op,the best way learn new fights,DFs or primals is to "Make more Friends" in game. Friends dont mind learning with friends. Once you have a nice core group of gamer pals you be able to call in favors and help other player in your core learn fights to. "This is how I got stuck doing Titan Ex with 4 new players this moring........" Sometimes life is unfair.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

Is this actually a thing endgame? I've just got to Prae and noticed that the community suddenly seemed to turn blunt at CM. Does this sort of thing continue into the later game? What happens to wanting to figure out a dungeon as you go along?

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I've noticed it's really only that way with EX Primals and Coil. Nobody really gives a damn as far as I can tell for Tower raids and the other dungeons. But for Coil and EX Primals, PLEASE watch a video for those, they're far less forgiving to recover from.

No.

Not only would a single player experience not be able to introduce most of the mechanics of ANY fight that's worth practicing (Tank Swaps, DPS checks, staying away from party members, staying close to party members, how much party damage needs to be healed, mechanics targeting a single player, party positioning, the party doing something while the tank keeps the boss away)... ANY EX fight or Coil I can think of would be almost completely worthless to go in solo and immortal for actually learning the fight, and would only lead to confusion, overconfidence, and frustration when preconceived notions from this 'solo fight' are proven completely wrong in the real one.

The only thing this MIGHT help would be a few of the simple normal dungeons, which are not complicated or hard enough to bother with doing it like that. It would be a lot of developer and server resources for something that could be easily resolved by getting into an FC that's slightly better then "completely awful", who will almost certainly and happily get you through and give you tips on what needs to be done in standard dungeons.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

No one cares about learning blind. If there's a video, you'll be told to watch before you're "allowed" to play so that people don't wipe or take longer to farm items.

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So glad I have a static that loves learning blind, a FC that seems to have more than an unusual amount of people that are willing to do it as well and a couple of LSs that one can pickup such people as well. And I'm noticing there are some pugs that accept that not everything is about watching videos and having things explained as well.

New "expert" dungeons I'll go into blind, as they're never particularly difficult anyway, and can be a laugh going in with buds all for the first time.
New coil turns though... not so much, typically last about 10 seconds before something wipes you all, so I'll always read a guide or watch a video. For me though, I learn quickest by doing both - I'll watch a video, then try my have (and wipe), then watch video again, then try again (and wipe again) and so on until I get there. Videos help but you still need to actually go in and try it for yourself

I think a better way to go about single player training modes (which I think would be a great thing) would be to scrap the whole "alone, invincible" thing. Give the player NPC allies with some modicum of intelligence about what to do in the fight, give the player normal stats, and let them go wild. There is no mechanic in this game that an NPC couldn't be programmed to handle with at least some effectiveness, and giving the NPC's a larger HP pool to both allow for their AI shortcomings and allow the player to actually see what is happening for any length of time would be perfect for training. For particularly difficult or obtuse mechanics, the NPC's can even throw out hints like "you better not point that thing at me!" when you get shrieked in T7 or "pass me that rot!" when you get Allagan Rot in T2, etc. If you die repeatedly, the game starts giving out hints on some of the general fundamentals of the fight, like how dying repeatedly at the final boss in Dissidia prompts the game to give you some tips on the fight.

These fights would be every bit as unforgiving as their multiplayer counterparts, but without the headache of finding players who are actually willing to help a new guy, dealing with players when you/they wipe, and the whole no-spoiler experience. You could go into them in any role, and the NPC's you're given and the advice they give would change accordingly. These modes can even count towards story completion for those who only care about that (it seems they're heading this way for low-level content anyways, from what the developers of said). I for one would absolutely sit down and master every aspect of a fight in every role in these training modes before I ever step foot into the fight with others if the game let me. Screwing over other people (friends or strangers) with my own inexperience has never been something I considered fun.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

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Squeenix doesn't make the strategies for fights. They may have some ideas as to how players will figure out how to do something, but basically giving away their idea for how a fight should be done would be nothing but detrimental to the creativity of the bleeding edge of content pushers. Or they'd have to actually endorse a particular strategy, and even if a better strategy would be available, people wouldn't use it because that's not what the NPCs do.

Not to mention the massive amount of time it would take to program AI NPCs for 4-8 characters for every instance for something that only a handful would take advantage of is ridiculous.

I find it pretty hard to believe SE makes these fights and then goes "oh well we have no idea how this fight is supposed to be won, but we're sure someone will figure it out." They design the fights very carefully to be won using a specific strategy and gear levels that is usually flexible enough that different people tend to come up with different ways of getting things done, but the end result is still that the fundamental things to win the fight that need done...need done. What, you think they pull those required ilevels out their arse? They know, far better than most players do, what it takes to win the fights they create.

And if only a handful would use this (which I also find pretty hard to believe)...incentivize it, like they do with everything else they put effort into that they want people to use. Achievements, vanity, whatever. Hell, make it mandatory to do the trial mode before you can even DF the group mode so anyone that is in a random group can be assumed to have some understanding of the fight. It's not hard and it would make endgame actually playable and enjoyable to a huge number of people that just plain stay away from "the hard stuff" because banging your face against a wall with other people and failing, and causing them to fail, ain't fun for most people.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Technically, the guildhests are tutorials since they teach the players various mechanics they could face and the final one is a full party instance that teaches the tanks to split up and get all the mobs.

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I agree. I think that best solution is add more guildhests as tutorial for more dungeon/boss mechanincs. Guildhests help me a lot to understand some basic mechanics in a "real fight".

I don't know about that...

Part of what makes raiding fun is all the frustration. Well, maybe not fun, but it's a lot more rewarding. If EVERYONE goes into a duty knowing exactly their role and what to do, it kind of ruins the fun of the duty. It's a weird concept, but after playing multiple MMO's that start to spoonfeed the boss fights to you, they become so easy and lose all of their sentimental value. Again, sounds silly, but you learn to appreciate the duty because you've wanted to throw your controller at the TV hundreds of times.

I agree with what a lot of people are saying above; I think they could expand a little more on the guildhest system, as those ARE designed to teach you certain mechanics. I do NOT think there should be single player duties that run you through a boss fight multiple times before you actually do it.

It takes out all of the anxiety, which, again, really makes the duties more memorable.