You are not a fail.

As a Healer that doesn't want to AoE or cleric stance.
As a DPS that wants to kill adds hitting the healer instead of burning boss.
As a tank taking it slow or pulling only two groups.
As a player wanting to do mechanics instead of ignore them.
As a new player to the dungeon dying to mechanics in a forced, silent speed run.
As a human being trying to remember what having fun means.

A message to people being harassed in dungeons during forced speed runs that have become worse than usual. And a thanks to tanks that do not force speed runs even on barely geared players, DPS not harassing tanks or healers over speed and damage, and healers not ditching when the run is slow or has new people.

No you're not, but you're also not trying your best

And, while there are some people that are overly pushy f8r speed runs...there are just as many being the same for slow runs.

If there are 3 wanting a speed run, and you're geared for it, well, majority rules. Same the other way; if three want it slower, that's what happens.

However, if you just refuse to dps when there's only light healing going on, or just single target when aoe is easy to do, or try to extend a fight for no reason...you're either really lazy or just bad (or a troll). Neither reflect well on you

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Originally Posted by Daranion

No you're not, but you're also not trying your best

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That's a very subjective thing to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daranion

No you're not, but you're also not trying your best

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Big whoop.

Also, if the tank is trying to force a speedrun out of a player who is undercharged, hes just a bad tank! Majority rules, so please try not to demonize those willing to push to the limits if you're not in the majority. In Duty Finder, you'll get all sorts and the majority will always rule. don't like going slow? Bail out and do something else, same for if you dislike speedruns. The only sure way is to use party finder, you know, getting to know people on your server

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Originally Posted by Daranion

No you're not, but you're also not trying your best

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Wow, talk about irony....You do realize that you just illustrated why the OP posted what they did, right?

I would have said inefficient instead of failing. Then again I don't call people out in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Wow, talk about irony....You do realize that you just illustrated why the OP posted what they did, right?

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Saying someone isn't trying their best isn't calling someone bad. If I sat there tanking 2 groups of mobs and not popping any CD, just relying on shield oath, I wouldn't really be trying my best would I? If you have the tools and the means to do it, and you consciously refuse to do it for whatever reason, you just aren't trying. that's not calling you bad, just saying what it is. Lack of effort, or maybe you just want to relax during the run, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Shirana

As a DPS that wants to kill adds hitting the healer instead of burning boss.

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Stop waking them up!!

And I'd say it's healers who are hardest on other healers for not dpsing. I don't tell them anything, but I get annoyed every time I have a healer in 8 man content that is just standing there for minutes.

U are all right. Everyone is right here. And majority rules, true. But OP will allways be right nevertheless...they are not a fail and no one should be harassed for anything ;) This count for any mmo and RL, too. Be tolerant.

lmao dude calm down its just a game i can tank in sword oath or without defiance lmao stop hating nasty troll
dude calm down im just checking my anime instead of spamming cure II on you even when you're taking 400 damage every 2 seconds
lmao stop being tryhard i want to inspect every angle of this dungeon stop getting mad just because i want to look at the water
lmao dude we have the dps to skip this boss's longer phase if we put effort but nah i want to do it for teh lulz and fun

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

That's a very subjective thing to say.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Wow, talk about irony....You do realize that you just illustrated why the OP posted what they did, right?

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OP used the verb "want" not "can".

For instance:

Quote:

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As a Healer that doesn't want to AoE or cleric stance.

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This sentence implies that the healer in question can DPS but doesn't want to.
In that case, what Daranion said is true.


However, I think that the OP just used a bad wording which misrepresents the actual point he/she was trying to make.
If that's the case, then the correct answer to that topic is:

Of course, if a player forces someone to do something they can't do (would it be because of the gear, the lack of knowledge or whatever), then that evil player is a bad player. Duh.

"Duh" being mantadory.

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Originally Posted by Shirana

As a Healer that doesn't want to AoE or cleric stance.
As a DPS that wants to kill adds hitting the healer instead of burning boss.
As a tank taking it slow or pulling only two groups.
As a player wanting to do mechanics instead of ignore them.
As a new player to the dungeon dying to mechanics in a forced, silent speed run.
As a human being trying to remember what having fun means.

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Quoted for truth...and 110% agreed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shirana

A message to people being harassed in dungeons during forced speed runs that have become worse than usual. And a thanks to tanks that do not force speed runs even on barely geared players, DPS not harassing tanks or healers over speed and damage, and healers not ditching when the run is slow or has new people.

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This tank does not do speed runs at all. I dislike the pressure of the mass pulls, and I dislike putting my healer (my wife) under that kind of pressure, she plays for fun, not stress... The only time my WHM attempts more dps than an Aero or stone, is when running maps or FATE and a Holy or two helps mow down the mobs, and healing is not an issue. I have never ditched a run as tank, dps or healer - even when some player running as a Maurader in Haukke Manor insisted on playing with ilvl 20 gear, could not hold threat and got pissed off at me (playing as Scholar) because I 'would' not use Leeches (which thanks to level sync, Scholar doesn't have in Haukke) - the same player claimed to have a ilvl 98 scholar and so he knew what could/could not be done...

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Originally Posted by Fyce

However, I think that the OP just used a bad wording which misrepresents the actual point he/she was trying to make.

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Well done you for reducing the argument to semantics and not merits...

Hyperbole and exaggeration isn't the best to use on this forum Melriss, surely you know that by now

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Hyperbole and exaggeration isn't the best to use on this forum Melriss, surely you know that by now

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From what I've seen the forums here are ripe with exaggerations and constant whining about either Atma being too hard to get or people saying that healers should never ever DPS.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

And, while there are some people that are overly pushy f8r speed runs...there are just as many being the same for slow runs.

If there are 3 wanting a speed run, and you're geared for it, well, majority rules. Same the other way; if three want it slower, that's what happens.

However, if you just refuse to dps when there's only light healing going on, or just single target when aoe is easy to do, or try to extend a fight for no reason...you're either really lazy or just bad (or a troll). Neither reflect well on you

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Or you just don't have the gear to heal a speed run...I've had plenty of times a tank decided he was going to pull multiple groups and I was geared enough to heal the dungeon..just not geared for a speed run heal the dungeon.

Those tanks learned their lesson when they died a couple of times. (And not on purpose).

Is there a point of this thread other than a making a "I play how I want so Fk off" statement?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Is there a point of this thread other than a making a "I play as intended thank you very much" statement?

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Fixed it for you...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Well done you for reducing the argument to semantics and not merits...

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Semantics is about the meaning. Two different verbs are not semantics as they can drastically alter the meaning of an actual sentence.

I would not call them a fail but there comes a point where you endanger the the completion of the run, for easy content like most dungeons that's all well and good but if you are not at least trying to push your characters to the limit for more difficult content and you wipe then you share in the blame.

As for healers not DPS'ing, this literally baffles me. The entire conjury story line teaches the merits of using all your abilities and not just healing. The Scholar quests have you healing and DPS as well, healing alone would never allow you to beat them. If the run is going just fine and you are sitting on nearly full MP and cannot be bothered to toss out at least a Bio/Aero here and there to speed things along a little bit then you are just being plain lazy. End of story.

As for new players wanting to choose to do certain mechanics, they need to check with the rest of the party to make sure everyone is on the same page. Because if one group is doing the fight one way and half the group is using a different strategy you're gonna have a bad time. People play differently and you should be open to new ideas, some of these "speed" mechanics actually make some fights considerably less stressful on new players as long as they can attempt to give it a try. I'm sure the devs never imagined a group would tank Leviathan Extreme with two Titan-Egis but I watched a group who cleared it and it looked like a blast but clearly did not follow the devs idea of how the fight would play out.

The important point is if you have a difference of playstyle with someone is to try and not act like a tool about the entire thing and work out some manner of compromise. I've seen people explode over helpful suggestions to make things easier for them and they scream. "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!!!" The sooner everyone gets over themselves the better the community will be as a whole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danima

U are all right. Everyone is right here. And majority rules, true. But OP will allways be right nevertheless...they are not a fail and no one should be harassed for anything ;) This count for any mmo and RL, too. Be tolerant.

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this is exactly what i mean.
Majority rules, that's fine. Otherwise arguments may never be settled. There's always the option to leave, make pre-made parties, ask for courtesy for slower runs or whatever. Having opinions of others is a basic human right. Giving advice is perfectly natural.
But being rude about it is completely unnecessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Semantics is about the meaning. Two different verbs are not semantics as they can drastically alter the meaning of an actual sentence.

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And none of this in any way goes to the original post. The tactic of deconstructing the sentence structure and wording of someone's post ignores the merits of their post and reduces the discussion to linguistics. I do not need to remind you of what kind of poster does that do I?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Well done you for reducing the argument to semantics and not merits...

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Well, that's the only thing we can argue about on that boring topic with a catchy title.

- If the point of the OP is "don't force someone do to something they can't do", then the correct answer is "duh, thanks Captain Obvious".
- However, if his/her point is to say "people should play like they want"... then there's a bit more to discuss here about selfishness and entitlement to waste other player's time.

... And since the last paragraph of the OP gives the hint, then yeah...

"Duh".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Fixed it for you...

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Kosmos, are you also against using the pits to bait dives on twintania, using line of sight method on turn 6, enrage timer in T2, doing more DPS to Galsya Labadabadoo in Syrcus Tower to dodge his jumpy platform part, and many other different strategies just because the creators didn't design it that way? Because if you do, your inflexibility would be causing the community more problems than just speedrunners and people complaining about lazy healers

When I was new to the game, it would warn people that someone was new. I would say "first time here". I ran into to great people and awful people. Some people would be incredibly generous, with their time and patience. To all those people who are patient and generous, and even if you were not kind to me, but that is who you are and how you behave to all you encounter. I SEE YOU, I FEEL YOU. THANK YOU for being you from the bottom of my heart.

The other people who ignored me, ran off and pulled as many mobs as possible and were cruel when we wiped. I am not mad at you, I feel sorry for you. I am more geared and experienced now, I play a WHM and my wife BRD. We join, you run off without asking, we do incredible speed runs, I Holy the crap out of giant groups and my wife sings and AOEs with me. You thank us for our runs. I could have gotten to this point faster and much more happily if you had just taken some of your time and shown a small amount courtesy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Fixed it for you...

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Except no. The way the game is intended to be played is the players can do within the rules of the game. If the game intended for healers to not damage, they wouldn't have nearly a third of their arsenal of spells being offensive spells nor would Cleric Stance even exists. The game doesn't intend for players to always and do mechanics every single time when they can easily be skipped (Normal Amdapor Keep's last boss) when reaching a certain treshold of gear.

The game doesn't resolve around higher geared people but it sure as well doesn't revolve around the lower geared people or the "I play how I want" mentality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

And none of this in any way goes to the original post. The tactic of deconstructing the sentence structure and wording of someone's post ignores the merits of their post and reduces the discussion to linguistics. I do not need to remind you of what kind of poster does that do I?

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Except it actually does go to the original post because the two verbs gives two different road to the topic at hand. It's clear as day that this topic is a "I play like I want because it's my 15$ while foregoing the other 45$ of the party".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Kosmos, are you also against using the pits to bait dives on twintania, using line of sight method on turn 6, enrage timer in T2, doing more DPS to Galsya Labadabadoo in Syrcus Tower to dodge his jumpy platform part, and many other different strategies just because the creators didn't design it that way? Because if you do, your inflexibility would be causing the community more problems than just speedrunners and people complaining about lazy healers

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Pretty much and I'm willing to bet said person at least uses one of these strategies therefore making his stance quite hypocriticial since he would be cherry-picking whichsituation is good and which is bad based on his own pre-conceived notions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Well, that's the only thing we can argue about on that boring topic with a catchy title.

- If the point of the OP is "don't force someone do to something they can't do", then the correct answer is "duh, thanks Captain Obvious".
- However, if his/her point is to say "people should play like they want"... then there's a bit more to discuss here about selfishness and entitlement to waste other player's time.

... And since the last paragraph of the OP gives the hint, then yeah...

"Duh".

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the point is people should play like they want. For fun. And not being harassed over it. Or shouted at for not being good enough for a forced play style.
When an undergeared healer is being harassed for failing to speed run a dungeon it's not playing for fun it's being told what to do in an angry manner. When a tank doesn't find speed runs fun he shouldn't be harassed for not doing speed runs. When a DPS doesn't enjoy spamming crappy AoE's because he or she does not fun to spam one button he or she shouldn't be shouted at for it or treated differently.
I apologize if my point came off wrong. I'm not in anyway a master of making essays.

OP, I find the easiest way to stop speed runners is to : show up at item level (hide your Nexus weapons) and don't use AOEs or use very few, pretend to run out of tp...and let the tank die a few times (you can do this as a Dps to) All the while no one will ever know what you are doing. Most times the tanks just Rage Quits. Remember, "There's always a way"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Fixed it for you...

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So playing how you want without care of other players is how DF is intended these days, kay.

Think there's a difference between a forced speedrun that wipes the party than going slightly faster for the sake making the run easier/less boring.
If you healer is standing around doing jackshit 80% of time, maybe pull more if they aren't willing to dps.
3 people decide to burn boss (ei tyrant in sirius, 1st boss in cutters) and you decided say fk u to your party and do what you want making it harder for everyone.
Your party decide to handle some boss mechanics in some way and you decided otherwise screwing your party is INTENDED. aka coil/ct series.

It's DF, you meet 3-23 other people, be a bit compromising.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shirana

the point is people should play like they want. For fun.

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Time to start trolling runs. Thanks for the approval!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shirana

the point is people should play like they want. For fun. And not being harassed over it. Or shouted at for not being good enough for a forced play style.
When an undergeared healer is being harassed for failing to speed run a dungeon it's not playing for fun it's being told what to do in an angry manner. When a tank doesn't find speed runs fun he shouldn't be harassed for not doing speed runs. When a DPS doesn't enjoy spamming crappy AoE's because he or she does not fun to spam one button he or she shouldn't be shouted at for it or treated differently.
I apologize if my point came off wrong. I'm not in anyway a master of making essays.

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I won't harass people over it but if somebody is willingly wasting other people's time because of their own reasons, I have every right to point it out to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Except no. The way the game is intended to be played is the players can do within the rules of the game. If the game intended for healers to not damage, they wouldn't have nearly a third of their arsenal of spells being offensive spells nor would Cleric Stance even exists. The game doesn't intend for players to always and do mechanics every single time when they can easily be skipped (Normal Amdapor Keep's last boss) when reaching a certain treshold of gear.

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As it happens, I believe that you are wrong, the use of level sync in the pre-50 dungeons clearly demonstrates the intent to maintain the difficulty of content despite the gear ladder. SE has been extremely tardy in applying ilvl sync to the 50+ dungeons, and that has created an issue where highly geared players can, as you point out, ignore mechanics. That is the result of SE not yet applying the same balance to the 50+ dungeons as they did to the pre-50 dungeons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Except it actually does go to the original post because the two verbs gives two different road to the topic at hand. It's clear as day that this topic is a "I play like I want because it's my 15$ while foregoing the other 45$ of the party".

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Odd, I didn't get that at all, what I got was a supportive post telling players who get harrassed by others in dungeons that it's OK to play your class and not conform to the expectations of others to play beyond your role, gear, ability or desire. If anything else, the OP was inferring that calling others a fail in the circumstances mentioned is the wrong thing to do. Of course that is my opinion, but I feel it's a hell of a lot closer to the OP's intent, than what you wrote.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

So playing how you want without care of other players is how DF is intended these days, kay.

Think there's a difference between a forced speedrun that wipes the party than going slightly faster for the sake making the run easier/less boring.
If you healer is standing around doing jackshit 80% of time, maybe pull more if they aren't willing to dps.
3 people decide to burn boss (ei tyrant in sirius, 2st boss in cutters) and you decided say fk u to your party and do what you want making it harder for everyone.
Your party decide to handle some boss mechanics in some way and you decided otherwise screwing your party is INTENDED. aka coil/ct series.

It's DF, you meet 3-23 other people, be a bit compromising.

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And those 'examples' have zilch to do with the topic.

Oh my goodness, Kosmos IS against pushing phases and bleeding edge play. People should just stop arguing with her then. she's set in her ways and wants everyone else to follow suit. That's very rude of you kosmos, forcing people to play ways they don't want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I won't harass people over it but if somebody is willingly wasting other people's time because of their own reasons, I have every right to point it out to them.

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There's nothing wrong with that or trying to go a little or a lot faster. I'm posting against people harassing others over it, or trying to force people into different playstyles that makes them feel stressed out and to thank courteous players who aren't mean about it.
So thank you.

edit: fixed a typo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Saying someone isn't trying their best isn't calling someone bad. If I sat there tanking 2 groups of mobs and not popping any CD, just relying on shield oath, I wouldn't really be trying my best would I? If you have the tools and the means to do it, and you consciously refuse to do it for whatever reason, you just aren't trying. that's not calling you bad, just saying what it is. Lack of effort, or maybe you just want to relax during the run, who knows.

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Or maybe it's lack of familiarity with said dungeon. First few times I run something on my tank job, I only do a couple pulls at a time, once I familiarize myself with the enemy layout to where I personally feel comfortable, I start pulling larger groups, usually increasing by one pack at a time until I find my limit. Apparently this means I'm not giving effort though, cuz I'd rather spend a couple extra minutes killing things than spend double that wiping to trash cuz I pulled more than I knew I could handle

Yea. This argument is going to go no where. You get 2 different people wanting to play how they want, IE one wants slow one wants fast runs, then what? Both raging at each other for the other impairing their ability to play how they want.

Point- it goes both ways and both sides need to learn to compromise and stop acting entitled and selfish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

that stuff you said

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Isn't the argument assuming it's NOT your first few times at that rodeo and rather just people just chilling because they jsut don't have the drive or care to try and push even more? I'm right there with you as one tank to another. you dip your toes into the water, not jump in without looking. My post isn't saying you have to be HARDCORE 100% ALL THE TIME SPEEDTIME. I'm just saying that if you have the means to do it ie; the knowledge, gear, and skill and you still don't do it for lack of care, then yeah you're not triyng enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Oh my goodness, Kosmos IS against pushing phases and bleeding edge play. People should just stop arguing with her then. she's set in her ways and wants everyone else to follow suit. That's very rude of you kosmos, forcing people to play ways they don't want.

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Excuse me? What in the hell are you talking about? I love that 'bleeding edge play' thing though, does it make you feel good to play a the bleeding egde, do you feel advanced and elite? ::rolls eyes:: Personally I hope that every player who thinks like you does in fact not play with me at all, it will make my life, and the lives of the other players around me a whole lot more pleasant not to have to deal with pro-bro players with the mentality you're displaying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shirana

There's nothing wrong with that or trying to go a little or a lot faster. I'm posting against people harassing others over it, or trying to force people into different playstyles that makes them feel stressed out and to thank courteous players who aren't mean about it.
So thank you.

edit: fixed a typo

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This is why I dislike the current coil and mostly just avoided doing it even when i'm ilvl 123 (thats with no dreadwymn btw) people stressing other people out.
Thats no fun.

Its also a chicken and egg problem where you can't have one without the other,
People won't take you to coil without experience, but you need experience to actually beat coil. Go figure.