Nin's please remember the BRD in your party for GOAD when doing big group pulls and AOE. While WAR can use the TP for overpower, it only costs 100 TP and with access to flash, WAR have no trouble keeping hate on the big groups without it. PLD don't need it at all.
Goad makes a huge difference with brd. Wide Volley uses 160 TP and invigorate has a long recast (especially in those cases where you go from one big pull directly into another). Army's Peon can be used (good choice with 2 brds in the party) but costs brd 20% in damage.
Give it a try. The big groups will go down faster if you do.
NIN Goad - Show BRDs some love
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02-07-2015, 02:41 AMWaeksynNIN Goad - Show BRDs some love
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02-07-2015, 02:46 AMAbbul_Stonecleaver
Overpower costs 130 TP, and Tomahawk costs a lot too during the pull. Warriors don't need Goad often, but there are certain dungeons where TP starts getting really bad. I don't know about these new dungeons yet, but last room of Sastasha HM had me hurting for TP just about every run. Probably best on Bard the majority of the time, but sometimes Warriors.
I wish players could see other party members TP. I can see my own up there in the list. I would be perfectly fine if the other party members' TP was listed under it. -
02-07-2015, 03:06 AMIlitsa
I thought that was standard, Unless the tank specifically asks for it (It's my wife so it's effortless there), I goad the other dps in my group on the big pulls. If it's a drg/mnk, once I get to about 600tp, I goad them cuz I know they use TP a lot faster than me, so if I'm that low, they're likely lower. Only time I'll only goad the tank is if it's another nin in my group lol.
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02-07-2015, 03:32 AMMykll
If I am with a WAR tank, the tank gets it. If I am with PLD tank, they don't burn through TP as fast. And they have Flash to fall back on. In those cases, the BRD gets it.
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02-07-2015, 03:37 AMOphie-MioUhhhh, as a WAR who does big pulls, I disagree. Overpower isn't necessarily expensive but its conal range makes it hard to gather AND keep aggro on larger amounts of mobs when DPS are going balls to the wall on their own separate monsters. So, to compensate, it goes off multiple times. At 130 TP and let's say using it four times? That's already 520 TP...Quote:
Originally Posted by Waeksyn
Also, if you wanna keep going, you're gonna need to Goad me still since after the pull is done, I can't do anything until I wait for my TP.
As a person who also plays bard, I have no problems in speedrun pulls if I use Invigorate long before I truly am seeing fumes. Do it at about half and it'll be up again when you need it. Plus, Peon is also good. The damage reduction is a thing. It just is. It's a part of being bard. Use Soul Voice + Peon and you'll at least be doing it for less. Depending on your party composition, you won't even notice the damage reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waeksyn
All that being said, the times I have been goaded, I haven't noticed. I just noticed that I was in an abundance of TP and my Invigorate was still up. I guess there's a difference when your free Rain of Death and Noct arrow procs a lot? Standard for me is the goad being given to other NINs or TP hogs like DRG and MNK. As a WAR, I expect it in a double NIN party and will ask my husband for it. As a bard, I don't bother to ask. I'm fine enough with TP without it and usually other jobs get priority. -
02-07-2015, 03:37 AMNoxifer
Also try to keep in mind that Bards, unlike Warriors, at least have access to Invigorate :3 (And yeah, I know it has a long cooldown. But I still wish I could use it T_T)
(Overpower costs 130TP, Tomahawk costs 120TP, btw.)
A Ninja I play with often recently said that Goad should always go to melee dps if they're there (by which I think he meant "physical dps", not necessarily melee), which I don't quite agree with. Not that I think it should always go to the tank either, it's more that I think it depends upon more than a static "is this job in the group?" check. I mean, sure, the mobs die quicker if the dps have more TP, but if the tank runs out of TP and loses aggro to said dps (due to lower ilvl or derping or just generally not being as good at his/her job as s/he should be -- everyone was new at some point, after all), the mobs will most likely kill the dps before dying themselves :3 And with only three Flash available before MP runs out, Warriors more or less depend on Overpower to manage larger groups, where tab-hitting them just won't work. Three or possibly four enemies, sure. More than that... Not too likely. Conversely, if the tank manages to hold aggro on the group without running out of TP too quickly, and the issue is more that the fight drags out longer, then I have no problem at all to see a Goad go to someone else.
But yeah, I'm a tad partial to Warriors in this case (*coughs and points to main class*), so feel free to disagree with me =D
And I agree that this would all be a lot easier if they'd implement measurements for TP in the party list... whether as bars or numbers or a percentage.
(And if they'd allow the TP-recovery items to be used outside of PvP. Casters/healers have ethers to recover their "TP" - why don't we? D: ) -
02-07-2015, 03:40 AMNaliee
Only reason why I'm probably not giving BRD Goad is cause BRD is failing at his/her job.
OH YES, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE SINGING. I see farrrrr too many BRDs who won't sing Foes when they have pt full of BLMs. If I see you doing your job, then I will give you my Goad love (On the rare times when I get to play NIN). -
02-07-2015, 03:46 AMSlappahJust want to point out that battle voice does not affect yourself. So using it along with paeon for the purpose of restoring your own TP is a wasteQuote:
Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio
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02-07-2015, 03:52 AMelreed
I usually decide between wars and brds, in some cases is more important giving tp boost to tanks, but just in some dungeons or long fights, so yeah brds are always a priority for me, but the post should more about ninjas giving all the time goad to party members, I've been in lots of parties and some ppl doesn't use goad at all...
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02-07-2015, 04:18 AMOphie-MioLol, seems I'm still doing that. Soul voice was an ability from XI... seems I've never grown out of calling Battle voice that. But yeah, never knew that it didn't affect the user. Learned something new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
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02-07-2015, 04:29 AMPArcher
Personally, if I have a nin and BRD in a 4 man, im not pulling that big (maybe two groups if they're both geared enough). The aoe DPS is just too low and, esp if I have a sch or poor (non dpsing) whm, I'd have to burn through extra cds to stay alive.
Then again, I actually look at my party and their gear and ask if they want to pull big before rushing off... -
02-07-2015, 04:31 AMWarlyx
goad on tank only if adds are coming in waves or something like that ,else DPS killing faster > giving the tank 10000 more agro when they are already miles ahead ....
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02-07-2015, 04:56 AMKazumac
As a warrior I don't need an aggro lead by continuing to overpower after berserk runs out (at this point the mobs will be dead before a dps can pull it off me). If more AOE dps can be gained by giving it to the bard by all means give it to them. Though it would be great to see party members TP to see who can benefit most from it. I mean if the bard is full from popping invigorate I'd love to have it so I can add some more damage to the mix.
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02-07-2015, 05:27 AMDgsoil
I more often then not goad bards, I even have a macro just to goad my statics bard in FCoB.
GOOD Bards in 4 mans? They get goad.
A bad bard who doesn't realize that foe also increases ninjutsu's magic damage or does something even worse like always riding a song (Hey maybe our sch doesn't need ballad the entire dungeon?) that decreases their dmg or doesn't even sing at all? No goad for you. -
02-07-2015, 05:29 AMWaeksyn
Consensus seems to be the UI needs a way to display party member TP and that NIN needs to at least goad somebody!
Kinda reminds me of FFXI where it took a third party app to get party TP display. -
02-07-2015, 05:38 AMdice137
This could all be easily solved if SE would just let everyone see the TP bars of their party, honestly. That and if they would let us actually break up the party 'window' so we could arrange members' info as we saw fit.
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02-07-2015, 09:02 AMsinfull
I'm curious how anyone survived before ninja came out. What are you doing with all that tp, before ninja came out WAR seemed to hold hate perfectly fine and not blow all there tp.
All warriors I play with have never gotten to a point of having no tp left and in need for a goad they use there other hate combos as well as flash not just rely on overpower to hold hate.
As a bard yes we can use all our tp up fast on a big pull but I've managed without a goad and still will, the use of army's peon and invigorate help me keep plenty of tp in reserve. -
02-07-2015, 09:32 AMKazumacThe question is not really do they need it since content can be brought down without its use, but rather how best to use it since it is there and not using it would be wasteful.Quote:
Originally Posted by sinfull
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02-07-2015, 12:47 PMstanrir
I always do and one time I did the Warrior threw a huge fit that I didn't goad him ._.
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02-07-2015, 12:57 PMSessurea
Drgs too. Could cry for a goad when on brd or drg, tanks pulls big, nin is 1v1ing, I ask nin for goad, and he goads healer :D
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02-07-2015, 01:00 PMaisustrong
isnt nock more tp efficient?
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02-07-2015, 01:38 PMAlistaireYes, providing you can hit all the targets with it. That can be either rough to do in some cases, others it's just bards that don't know better.Quote:
Originally Posted by aisustrong
You have to be something along the lines of god tier luck to get enough procs on the other 2 to even it out. -
02-07-2015, 06:02 PMLemuria
Not to put too fine a point on it, but does Bard really need Goad? I mean, we can equip invigorate for a free 400 TP if we get really low, and unless you're spamming Wide Volley endlessly, you shouldn't be wrecking your TP too badly. Sure, it's good for tackling crowds so a little extra TP is always nice, but Goad isn't particularly fast at recovering it. It's effectively the same as Invigorate but takes 3 minutes to get there.
It would take 9 seconds to earn enough for a Quick Nock, and a full 21 seconds for Rain of Death. I'm not saying its useless, far from it, but it's not going to add much DPS overall since it's unlikely you'll be spamming skills long enough to win enough TP back. At least, not before running dry at least once. -
02-07-2015, 06:21 PMIts_Elodie
If I'm doing large pulls on my war and you see me slowing down with my rotation, please goad me. Yeah, it's nice when you have a pld in group so you don't have to worry about their tp too much, but with war it's a lot different IMO. It's not fair to say that we should have to resort to flashing to hold when with str accessories and good gear we dps on our own and use our tp to self heal to help the healers out. Popping foresight and bloodbath with beserk helps give us back hp while we overpower large mobs and with many large pulls its easy to run out. Flashing doesn't do that. We also don't have the crazy defensive cd's plds do so I try to help heals when I can.
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02-07-2015, 08:08 PMFated
I would never Goad a Warrior. A good one doesn't need it.
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02-07-2015, 08:29 PMvp_cmcI'm losing all tp as a bard after a 4 minutes in a single target fight, with invigorate, but when I have 100% uptime on boss (t10, t12 for example). After this I either take goad or have to do paeon just for myself, because others seem still fine on TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
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02-07-2015, 08:41 PMKyros
Between a Warrior and a BRD? Goad the Warrior. All things equal he'll run dry sooner. This isn't about TP, but about damage. Also, a BRD can easily Paeon himself between pulls, where typically the WAR will be out of range to receive the benefit while he pulls everything.
Just because they don't need it doesn't mean they can't use it. A good Warrior will turn that goad into more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fated
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02-07-2015, 10:18 PMSammix87
To be fair to some of the really good and nice people playing NIN's I have been lucky to be given goad when I was dpsing mobs using AoE abilities. TBH I didn't really need it as some of the people have said, its not hard to manage your TP as long as you use your skills properly and so far the fights in WoD are the worst for me TP wise (but then I always get in low dps runs for that so yeah...).
We have armies peon so its not 100% necessary for BRD to get Goad but I do see where your point is coming from. I'd say that it should really be up to the NIN in your party, or maybe if you really desperately need tp and its available try asking? I'm sure most people wouldn't mind. -
02-07-2015, 10:26 PMaisustrongi get goaded fairly often in roullete pugs, just makes me use op more oftenQuote:
Originally Posted by Fated
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02-07-2015, 11:24 PMWaeksyn
I'm not a warrior so I'm pretty ignorant about how that job keeps hate on big pulls. I do play PLD, though, and I have no trouble keeping hate on big pulls without access to an effective, TP based crowd enmity skill like overpower. Circle of scorn is a bit of a joke being so weak (even with the recent enmity boost), long recast and small diameter of effect.
In big pull AOE situations, I don't worry about damage at all, just enmity. I Flash until MP gets low then fast blade / riot blade / Flash until about 3 mobs are left at which time I can rotate among the 3 with normal attacks (Fast - Savage - Rage) or continue with FB / RB to build MP back up for the next pull.
With War having access to Flash, they have both an MP based crowd enmity skill and the TP based skill. They don't get a way to recover MP but when MP gets low but can use the TP based Overpower while MP recovers, then go back to Flash while TP recovers. Rinse and repeat.
So, in that scenario, why does WAR need Goad, unless they are focusing on dealing damage rather than enmity control?
As I said, I'm pretty ignorant about how the job is played. -
02-07-2015, 11:36 PMFantasy9You would be the first tank I have met that isn't a FC/LS mate that doesn't think BRDs are AoE gods just because we have AoEs. Our AoEs are too expensive to fight big groups for prolonged periods of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
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02-08-2015, 03:25 AMLaylaTsarra
Personally Bards get most of my attention when it comes to goads. I play often as a bard and know how important it is. I always love tanks who pull the entire dungeon with one melee and one bard like they think we have unlimited TP.
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02-08-2015, 03:26 AMMykllQuote:
Originally Posted by Waeksyn
That is what all this boils down to. Along with a couple of other points:Quote:
Originally Posted by dice137
1. NIN, be nice and goad someone. I have mine tied to the /handover emote. Let that TP user have access to a little more TP.
2. If you are grouped with a NIN, don't assume you will get the Goad. Don't be wasteful from the start thinking you will get it. -
02-08-2015, 12:29 PMNoxiferExcept our MP pool is more or less non-existent. We have MP to flash three times. Then we're OoM. As a Paladin, I have 1466 MP and an MP-recover skill. As a Warrior, I have 764 MP, and the only MP-recovery I have access to is ether/elixirs. And since those recover a percentage of your max MP, they're nowhere near as efficient as their stated max recovery. (X-ether: 20%, max 420pts, would give my warrior a whole 153 mp ;_; That's not even a full Flash.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Waeksyn