Hello! Many of you are intriqued by the title so let me go ahead and explain to you what I mean. There is one thing I really miss about playing my old game, Final Fantasy XI, Job Uniqueness!
In Final Fantasy XIV we somehow came to the same road when it came to abilities and traits of certain jobs, yet somehow traveled in the other direction. Where's the uniqueness that let me pick my Samurai job over other heavy DD such as Dragoon, Dark Knight, and Warrior? With this game, it seems that whatever job I pick, I'm still playing the same one only with a different weapon. The same applies for the magic wielding masters of disastors.
Now I'm not saying, "Hey! This game sucks! I want Final Fantasy XI back, now!" I just want what every other Final Fantasy Fan wants.....A great game. This game has the potential to be great, but right now it just seems to be a garbled up game with too many defects. I can't list them all, but I just want to point out at least one in this post.
As I was saying before, the ability to pick a job over the others was what had me intriqued with Final Fantasy XI rather than Final Fantasy XIV. With XI, my Samurai was completely different over a Dragoon. Not by weapon only, but by the traits and abilities it solely had proprietorship over. Sure some of them you could obtain through subjob, but they were still unique. You had to sub it to get it. Store: TP, Meditate, Zanshin. All abilities and traits that made that job stick out to me like a sore thumb to the rest of the line-up.
Black Mage is another job I wish to press on this blog over Character Uniqueness. It's sole purpose in the game was, you guessed it, distruction of everything holy with it's might of magic. Tier III & IV as well as Arcane Black Magic made this job a great choice for me. Not to mention the awesome traits and abilities: Conserve MP, Magic Attack Bonus, etc.
If you're like me, then you'll agree that the unique job abilities and traits were the pinacle of which jobs you liked best to use and which one's stayed with you through the years without ever being bored of them. This is what I wish to influence Square Enix to change with Final Fantasy XIV. Go back to that fork in the road. Take the old route again and see what happens from there. I'm sure your creative minds can come up with some idea's to not only bring back Character Uniqueness, but also give it some new potential for the new era of MMO.
Thank you for reading this post, and I hope that you also feel the same and come inspired to bring about this change that I so deeply loved about the previous works of Sqaure Enix.
Remembrance of Old; A Galka's Tale of Character Uniqueness
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03-10-2011, 07:03 PMKimahriRemembrance of Old; A Galka's Tale of Character Uniqueness
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03-10-2011, 11:36 PMBlitz0309
I agree completely.
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03-10-2011, 11:44 PMAlexios
That's what I was talking about when I told that classes should be differentiated by their abilities, not the stats, when I was arguing against auto point allotment or removal of physical level.
Good article, Kimahri! If only there were more players like you instead of those idiots. -
03-11-2011, 02:42 AMDargoth_Draconia
They are planning on changing that to some extent but their goal at the same time was to allow the character to play how they want to play using what abilities work for them without people forcing others to have certain set up to even be able to participate in an event. The current system is lacking, but really does a good job of letting you create a character and play a character exactly how you want to play it.
I am not disagreeing with anyone, because I want class unique abilities and traits just as much as the next guy but at the same time I don't want them to totally scrap the system they got because I love being able to use abilities from other classes I have leveled. -
03-11-2011, 03:31 AMMysteryG
Great post! Very clear point and well argued.
I'm interested to see how the changes / additions go over, especially with things like Conjurer and people that have already leveled it all the way. -
03-11-2011, 03:50 AMLeowildeIt's true, and I agree with both sides of this discussion. However, I believe there is such a thing as too much freedom. The mere fact that we can swap between classes as much as we like, at any time, is quite enough. I never did like that we can play one class, while using a different class' abilities. Although there are limitations to this, it's still too open for me. It removes the uniqe feeling of the separate classes. So if someone ask "what class are you?" the answer will be - "I'm Conjurer rank 30, Archer rank 17, Pugilist rank 27" etc, rather than "I'm a Conjurer". Maybe I'm being stuck up, but there's little pride in being the class you have chosen when you can practically mix them together to one super class that takes the best from all. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia
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03-11-2011, 03:54 AMEsoteric
/signed
:D -
03-11-2011, 07:38 AMKimahri
Here is a post that I think has some very good potential to maybe further improve some qualifications for Character Uniqueness.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...sic-FF-Classes -
03-11-2011, 10:50 AMKimahriAs mentioned in this quote. I think what the author of this thread is saying is becoming even more plausible the more I think about it. It would be rather neat to take a job such as Lancer in a different direction. It seems a swell idea that at some point during the rank level that you reach a stage as to what advanced job avenue you'd like to walk towards. One avenue they say is Dragoon, and I think that's great. They say Samurai should be the second avenue towards Lancer, but I don't know. I was kind of thinking a Maurader should either become a Beserker or Samurai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
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03-11-2011, 03:06 PMCeltodenoMe too! In fact ive level all 7 classes together so far and i love it. I really dont wanna find out ive just wasted alot of time. I think that they can find away to give each class it own abilities and a few abilities that you might wanna bring to your other classes as well. What i hope if that they end up having high end graduated classes. like lancer gets a dragon, Mar get chance to multi hit like old warriors, conj's get summons. something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia
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03-11-2011, 03:26 PMKimahriYes, I know what you mean, Celtodeno. I, too, have leveled all seven ranks. I was never talking about keeping all the abilities of those ranks in the confines of it's rank. Only key specific ones that keeps the uniqueness of that class. As stated in some previous threads, there are just some abilities that would not tie into other classes. I do not believe elemental magic should go out of it's respective disipline. The same goes with weaponskills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtodeno
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03-25-2011, 12:38 PMRhomagusI honestly don't mean this to be rude at all, but that is precisely what makes Final Fantasy XI unique. Final Fantasy XI is still a great game and you can still play it. I miss materia from Final Fantasy VII but I don't need it to be reimplemented into any other game after that as I can just go play Final Fantasy VII again.Quote:
There is one thing I really miss about playing my old game, Final Fantasy XI, Job Uniqueness!
The thing is, that you are more unique now with the system as it is. You are not only different than those other classes, you are different that the same class. If two people only have Gladiator leveled and are in the same party, it is recommended that they spec themselves differently to add to party efficiency, especially as you get higher in Rank. If you can't spec on the fly and adapt to the situation grouping is less feasible. In the Armoury, the possibilities are vast per individual when you take into account that not every individual has leveled ever class to it's cap.Quote:
Where's the uniqueness that let me pick my Samurai job over other heavy DD such as Dragoon, Dark Knight, and Warrior?
The uniqueness is now spread from just your job to a complete expression of your own individuality in the Armoury. Even in Final Fantasy XI, jobs and their subjobs, were still cookie cutter. The individual was expected to act a certain way if they were a certain job and they, and their party members, were reprimanded for any deviation of what would be considered normal behavior. Not only that, but in the dynamic world of real life, the party as a whole was left to suffer if only one member had to attend to real life concerns. The Armoury system enables the flexibility for real working class adults to be able feasibly play the game and adapt to a world populated by real people with real lives.
Final Fantasy XI's design, in general, was a lifestyle choice, specifically if you wanted the higher end rewards. Unless you were a Beastmaster.
Also, because of the pigeon holing effect of XI's class system you'd get copy cat cookie cutter players. Not to dismiss your Samurai job choice, but as soon as Hasso and Seigan were implemented Samurai, was no longer a unique class, as everyone would level it. Same goes for the use of Ninja as a subjob for meless prior to Hasso and Seigan. So now, not only were you just like everyone one who played your job, you were just like everyone else because everyone else leveled your job.
The notion that Final Fantasy XIV does not offer class uniqueness is a farce and overblown misconception.
I agree with this point, but we get there from entirely different angles.Quote:
This game has the potential to be great, but right now it just seems to be a garbled up game with too many defects.
Sound
- No in-game toggle function for sound.
- No "Ambient Sound" slider bar.
Log on
- Won't remember password if chosen by user despite having Security token active
- Separate out of game log on
System
- Lack of alt+tab in true full screen mode. (windowed mode can appear to be full screen through a script but does not run as optimally as true full screen.)
- Long waits for relogging in after disconnection
Linkshell
- Lack of linkshell leadership features
- Lack of ability to speak to multiple linkshells on the fly
User Interface
- Lack of promised full customization
- Alien keyboard UI design
These problems are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the "defects" that you mentioned. Notice most of these subjects are almost non debatable as their exclusion/inclusion/change do not adversely effect the end user experience in any way and only serve to make the user more comfortable with their own playstyle.
Restraining the Armoury to a strict class system would restrict the end user, needlessly at that. -
03-25-2011, 12:50 PMRhomagus.. but not different from another Samurai.Quote:
...my Samurai was completely different over a Dragoon.
... and was largely shunned as a group contributor post Aht Urghan, because it was unable to adapt.Quote:
Black Mage is another job I wish to press on this blog over Character Uniqueness.
Unfortunately I am not like you and I wish to keep my own identity. I also don't believe that the pinnacle has been reached for any MMO and I'm grateful that there will always be someone looking to reach it. I find beauty in knowing that it is impossible to do so.Quote:
If you're like me, then you'll agree that the unique job abilities and traits were the pinacle of which jobs you liked best to use and which one's stayed with you through the years without ever being bored of them.
This only seems appropriate:Quote:
Go back to that fork in the road. Take the old route again and see what happens from there.
source:http://www.amandashome.com/road.htmlQuote:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference
-Robert Frost
I say let the individual choose their own road. -
03-25-2011, 12:54 PMVanguard319
as far as class uniqueness, if you are referring to the typs of armor available, I believe they are currently developing armor sets for each job that are exclusive to that job only, that should help somewhat, in addition, they can add to the list of job-exclusive abilities, which would help give each job some kind of basic role in a party, without being locked into it, or losing the ability to solo.
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03-25-2011, 02:30 PMReikaI kind of like being able to use Riot Blade as a Thaumaturge if I so choose to do so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
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03-25-2011, 07:31 PMKimahri
No. My Samurai wasn't different from another Samurai other than the currently equipped gear. But as far as being different from the other roles? Yes.
I never said to cut, slash, and paste the old FFXI system into this version. I said that they should go back and try to improve on THAT system, rather than start from scratch with this one. When I was refering to these statements up above, I was trying to tell you that in FFXI the roles were unique in themselves by only accessing the abilities of it's own class, and half of another. How would you say you're more unique now when in the future you'll see almost everyone with the same abilities in their action bar?
A lot of the posts I have discussed over other threads mentions that I would like certain abilities to be class specific. Gear to only fit a certain role. Weaponskills to be based on the weapon and not be used by others. (Why can a Lancer use an Archer's weaponskill?) This thread is about the classes, and only so. If you want to make a thread regarding the sound or linkshell issues, then please do so in another thread.
Right now this game feels like I have a cheat book in using whatever abilities I desire with minimal consequences. I'm sorry, but I don't like playing a game that's boring when I level a different class with the same abilities I've used for the past three. -
03-26-2011, 06:50 PMKarvapeikko
Very good thread, I must say. I must point out, that any route the devs are gonna take will piss some people. Considering classes are supposed to be weapon specialists, it only makes sense that weaponskills would be class spesific. In my opinion weaponskills and regular skills should be seperated and regular skills could be crossed to other classes freely with little penalty. Not only this improves improves uniqueness to seperate yourself from other classes, but allows devs to replace the lackluster animations with likes we've been expecting as they wouldn't need to try to think a way to make legsweep to look good with archers.
Also I would like to see current classes to have multiple roles to adapt to. That way there would be less copy-paste classes, but you could have those skills ported for vatiations like having cure II for emergency situations even, if you're archer in the backgrounds. Just to make clear, even if DoW classes could use curing/buffing spells, they should be made non-spammable with adjusting enough cooldown.
Last point I would like to mentions is that, in any battle system in any MMORPG there will be skills that stand out. Always when people are given the option to choose to use them, they will use them. I hope the system will evolve to make these skills to effect as boosting your role or giving it a little wider role to make smaller parties work without waiting for that single role to come. -
03-26-2011, 07:12 PMAbraxai
I agree. I completely agree..
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03-26-2011, 07:46 PMKimahriI can agree that if they still continue to refer to classes as "Weapon Specialists" then I would see no other way than to keep the weaponskills in the confines of their respective weapons. As you say, it'll help with the class system in terms of making the classes more unique than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karvapeikko
What I do not agree with is that you said to let the other abilities be passed over with minimal consequences. I would not mind making low level abilities be able to cross over, except in terms of DoW using DoM. I still don't see how any of the DoW classes besides Gladiator could benefit from using magic to define it's uniqueness? That's what seperates the two disiplines. They're warriors, not magicians.
If we allowed everybody to take abilities from other classes, then it would have to be at a certain rank before it becomes exclusive to the class. It's why you always seen pld/war or pld/nin because it was more effective of making that job unique than having pld/war/nin/blm/whm/rdm/etc. Now I'm NOT saying bring back the sub job system. With the way they have Ability points now, they should make it that any abilities you want to take from other classes require a certain amount of points to carry over.
If they did this. Certain abilities would have to be considered more potent than others and would require more ability points to carry over to the other classes. Less potent abilities would require less ability points and so on. However I would assume that some abilities wouldn't be allowed to carry over, such as magic to the DoW like I stated above. And also such abilities as Speed Surge from Lancer at that low level.
You're right. No matter what they decide to do will end up making some people angry over the changes. However they know it'll be far more beneficial for changes because it'll bring people back to the game and claim more over the years.
P.S. Another thing I wish to state right now is where are the class traits? I would really like to see them introduce this back from XI's job traits. Would really help. Maybe I'll write another thread about it. -
03-26-2011, 08:42 PMKarvapeikkoI agree on most parts. I didn't mean to say there shouldn't be class spesific abilities like Speed Surge, I like how abilities like that bring some uniqueness even now. As with magics, some could be crossed between discliplines with big penalty in cooldown. In my opinion it only helps smaller groups to a certain degree, without replacing the need of the actual class in big/serious groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
P.S. I love the idea getting more traits to further specify roles. -
03-26-2011, 11:25 PMArcell
I posted this in another thread but I'll paste it here:
Personally when I play Pugilist it is completely different from how I play Marauder, and that's different from how I play Gladiator. Then again I try to use most of a class's native skills as possible as those are meant for that class. Marauder has a lot of conal AoE attacks, Pugilist is more of a one-on-one fighter and Gladiator is decidedly a tank class not to mention the Sentinel abilities that make it unique in its own right. I would heavily suggest against a Lancer tanking simply because they have no native enmity generation skills and not only that, they tend to have more native enmity mitigation skills if anything. Sure a Gladiator can DD but I really wouldn't suggest it too heavily as they don't have tons of good high DPS skills natively. You can borrow skills from other classes but it still wouldn't be as effective as say a Pugilist.
There will always be skills that are universally useful (Second Wind, Cure, Feint, Bloodbath, Raging Strike) but to acquire the more potent versions of them you have to climb pretty far up the other classes. The only way everyone's going to have the same skills in end-game is if everyone levels everything to 50. As it stands now people are still different in the pools of skills they have based on what classes they chose to level first and further.
As others have said, it's not like there weren't any cookie-cutter builds in XI that you HAD to follow or else you'd be shunned from parties. In XIV there's much more grey area between "good" and "bad" builds. Sure there will always be cookie-cutter builds but here you can deviate a bit more without being shunned from groups. -
03-27-2011, 01:19 AMKazimir
/signed. I agree completely.
I understand people don't want this to be FFXI-2, but that does not mean you should avoid all of the best things about XI and implement things that are worse. Job uniqueness and the targeting system are just 2 examples of things they should have taken from XI instead of putting in a unique yet worse version.
They could actually kind of meld each system. Keep it so I can add abilities from different classes, but limit it. I should not be able to have both Sacrifice II and Cure II on my RNG to make it godly while I level. And I certainly should not be able to have high ranking abilities on a low rank job. I personally think it should be like the SJ's where I can only add abilities that have an optimal rank lower than the class I'm playing. It doesn't quite have to be 1/2 of my rank but at least 10-15 ranks below. -
03-27-2011, 09:54 AMRhomagusMy argument is that you can fill different roles with the same classes. Not only are the different classes slightly different from each other (AoE exclusivity, Magic effectiveness, Lancer specific weaponskills, Quick Nock, etc.) but they can be different from other people from the same class (Defensive GLA vs. Offensive GLA). If you break it down to general roles in a party XI had a lot of jobs that served the same purpose (Buffers, Tanks, Damage Dealers, Healers). Also, classes aren't jobs as posted by some people here on the forums and in early development interviews and XI still suffered from "bandwagon samurais" precisely because of it's strict character growth system.Quote:
No. My Samurai wasn't different from another Samurai other than the currently equipped gear. But as far as being different from the other roles? Yes.
Final Fantasy IQuote:
I never said to cut, slash, and paste the old FFXI system into this version. I said that they should go back and try to improve on THAT system, rather than start from scratch with this one.
Growth: Leveling in a strict Job System
Battle: Strict turn based battle
Final Fantasy II
Growth: System completely dependent on the repetitive use of traits and abilities
Battle: Still strict turn based
Final Fantasy III
Growth: Early Job system
Battle: Still turn based
Final Fantasy IV
Growth: Strict Class system where characters and job were synonymous
Battle: Sort of a "hidden" Active Time Battle system
Final Fantasy V
Growth: Another Job System (in which you could take already learned abilities from other jobs)
Battle: Introduction of the "visible" Active Time Battle system
Final Fantasy VI
Growth: Esper/Relic system (Magic was learned from magicite/Espers abilities were learned from relics/leveling)
Battle: Active Time Battle system
Final Fantasy VII
Growth: Materia system (stats and abilities governed by a predetermined added/linked/equipped/leveled)
Battle: Active Time Battle system
Final Fantasy VIII
Growth: Draw/GF system (Magic potency, stats, and use based on resevoir /Abilites determined by GF)
Battle: Active Time Battle system
Final Fantasy IX
Growth: Defined roles abilities could be used either temporarily or learned permanently
Battle: Active Time Battle system
Final Fantasy X
Growth: Sphere Grid (locked at first, free forming later) somewhat strict between characters.
Battle: Conditional Turn-Based Battle system ("visible" turn based battle)
Final Fantasy XI
Growth: Job system/Subjob system (Custom ability and stat allocation at endgame via Merit Points)
Combat: Real Time combat (ability cool downs and weapon delays)
Final Fantasy XII
Growth: License Board (free forming but required other abilities to be unlocked first)
Combat: Gambit instructed Artificial Intelligence
Final Fantasy XIII
Growth: Crystarium- Similar to Sphere Grid unlocked at intervals in storyline progression
Combat: AI controlled ATB based primarily on timing and on the fly strict role changes
Final Fantasy XIV (as of the time of this writing)
Growth: Learn what you earn. Current Rank determines statistical effectiveness. Custom Stat Distribution
Combat: Real Time Combat based on stamina reserve
Final Fantasy XIV does improve on that system. Not only that, it delineated itself from it predecessors by borrowing aspects from other games and introducing it's own.
You can use abilities from other classes, customize your own stats, adjust your role on the fly, and use abilities as often as you want (given certain conditions are met). I no longer have to wait for hours to form a perfectly balanced group. We can balance ourselves according to the situation at hand.
The keyword is balance. If you are equipping the exact same spec as someone else in your party you aren't balanced. This goes for right now and end game. You should plan and conform to the needs of the situation. If you don't, you are dead weight. Any monster difficulties can be balanced to this system and there will always be different strategies that work better than others on certain monsters as well as more challenging monsters than others.
I know this. I played XI. I know how it works. I'm telling you that your role in XIV is determined by you the player and the appropriate tools are given to you in order for you to be flexible. XI did not provide the tools in order for you to adapt to a dynamically changing environment that is unavoidable when dealing with other real life people in an MMO. XIV still creates the bond to your character as did XI. Any character can level any class/job. XIV improves on that by giving you the flexibility to adapt to the context of the situation.Quote:
I was trying to tell you that in FFXI the roles were unique in themselves by only accessing the abilities of it's own class, and half of another.
Well, you're assuming that everyone will grow their characters to the XI equivalent of having a Maat's Cap. Does everyone in XI have a Maat's Cap? Even then, I only have a limited amount of action points and slots to delegate. So does everyone else. We are already tasked to pick and choose where we should put our investments. Where should I put my stats? What abilities should I equip? The party makeup has changed, how am I going to adapt? The difference between XI and XIV is that I can actually look at those questions with a positive outlook in XIV. There's something I can do, right now, to answer those questions. In XI, you were either locked, gimped by race/job/gear combo, or got to head back to town and only hope that the party that took 2 hours to form doesn't disband from being too anxious for exp/hr.Quote:
How would you say you're more unique now when in the future you'll see almost everyone with the same abilities in their action bar?
My uniqueness would be the same uniqueness that the people with Maat's cap have except, the actual access to all of those abilities is far more rewarding than a stat boosting hat. The accomplishment has real impact on gameplay and my ability to adapt to the situation.
It already does. Learn about optimal gear.Quote:
Gear to only fit a certain role.
Not to mention that some weaponskills are already locked but also... because they took the time to learn it. How do you forget how to wear a hat? (in reference to your statement above)Quote:
Weaponskills to be based on the weapon and not be used by others. (Why can a Lancer use an Archer's weaponskill?)
Your posts are long as well, but I still take the time to read them thoroughly. If you want to tl;dr me, don't make tl;dr able posts. If you would've read my post you'd see that I was agreeing with you in that things need to be changed, just not the core of character growth, which is a highly debatable topic based solely on opinion. The things that I listed are things that need to be changed and stem from an "XI already did it this way" premise.Quote:
If you want to make a thread regarding the sound or linkshell issues, then please do so in another thread.
Final Fantasy XIV should be a different game. Completely altering the core of the game is feasible and expected, especially in light of the player survey, but it needs to be altered into it's own definition, not into a game that already exists. I'm arguing that the Armoury system is something they did right. It's part of the reason people came form race/gender/class/character/job locked games. It's by far one of XIV's diamonds in the rough.
That can be easily adjusted through monster difficulty. You don't need to scrap the Armoury in favor of a more restricted system.Quote:
Right now this game feels like I have a cheat book in using whatever abilities I desire with minimal consequences.
No need to apologize. No offense taken. You don't have to play this boring game. You can go play XI as you seem to love referencing it so. It's still there. Still strong. Larger player base than XIV. It has everything you want, well, except for the pretty graphics.Quote:
I'm sorry, but I don't like playing a game that's boring when I level a different class with the same abilities I've used for the past three.
Regardless, you don't have to play with the same abilities. You can put self imposed limitations on your own character as much as you please, just like you could in XI. You never had to get a subjob. You never had to have a perfect job/subjob combination. That subjob never had to be of a certain level. In that regard, both games gave you that freedom. Your qualm is with the community. Your trying to make a preemptive point when the community has not declared the strict social norms that XI has done. Perhaps it should, specifically if you're still of the opinion that any class can wear any gear.
Just because you can doesn't mean that you should but, you have the ultimate decision of choosing whether to do so or not. That's what XIV gives you as of the time of this writing.
If you choose to do so, could you answer me these questions?
What was the motivation behind leveling any bandwagon job in XI? Is that a sign that people want to be unique or is that a sign that people want to remain viable? -
03-27-2011, 09:57 AMRhomagus^This as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcell
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03-27-2011, 10:15 AMMalakhim
Ultimately, it all comes down to people wanting to be able to kick people who don't conform to their idea of what a class is supposed to be out of their party faster than they currently can with the armory system.
To these people, fuck you and your inbred idea of "class balance". You are the ones who ruined FFXI.
The post is sponsored by Red Bull -
03-27-2011, 11:36 AMKimahri
Okay, Rhomagus. Seems to me that you are taking offense to my statements. Telling me to go back to FFXI? tut tut tut. Stay out of my thread from now on. You had some points, but trying to bad mouth me? Please.
It's great you made a list of all the Final Fantasy systems. Did I once say scrap the class system? Nope. Yet you keep talking like I did in fact say this. Oh. And as far as Maat's cap. Nope, not everyone had it. But if I could remember the names of my linkshell mates from 3 years ago, I could say about 21/37 in the shell had one? (Me included) but did everybody? Nope. Not too hard when you had a group of experienced people.
Fact is that you completely disregarded what I said. Which being that it would probably turn into everyone leveling a certain class just for the ability to slap it on a better class. You act like I'm the idiot, yet I'm not the one listing every FF ever developed to try and prove a point over new class systems. Here's your problem. This liberty you have? Works great for a single player RPG. Go see Elder Scroll's, Dragon Age, Final Fantasy X. Not too bad when it's just you versus the world. But with massive amounts of others? Nope. Just seems stupid. How about you go back to single player RPG and leave this game to someone who loves a challenge?
Ah. The optimal gear you say? Really.......Well maybe you should mold your mind over certain pieces of gear that was only job specific such as AF, Relic, and various other pieces obtained through questing or synthesis. (Dragon Harness, Hagun, Bravura, Rouge's Harness, etc, etc.) and making enemies more difficult to cope with this system? Please. That's about as useful as a 30 second cooldown for everyone being able to use sacrifice II & cure II. Just useless. Let's not forget about the weaponskills you like. Rather stupid that if a class is based on a weapon, then why does it allow their weaponskills to be transfered? Dur!
Oh. And why did I choose to be a Samurai, Monk, and Black Mage main? Probably because I loved the thought of playing those jobs? At least when I chose them they didn't seem as tasteless as XIV's current class system is. Oh. And I was a pretty damn good Galka BLM. So stuff it when you were dissing races being the key to what you leveled.
Now I'm going to go ahead and let you read this. However I'm going to add you to yet as another person on my ignore list when you try to respond to me. So don't waste your time, and stay out of my thread. Goodbye. -
03-28-2011, 01:00 AMRhomagusI am not taking offense to your statements. Your rhetoric leans towards the demeaning, but I am not offended. You have just as much right to your opinion as I do.Quote:
Okay, Rhomagus. Seems to me that you are taking offense to my statements.
I'm not telling you to go back to XI. I'm not trying to kick you out of XIV. I'm just letting you know that there is a system out there that that fulfills your needs and that you may have more fun with it. It's a suggestion, not a commandment.Quote:
Telling me to go back to FFXI?
How much did you pay for this thread? Do you have a license for this thread? Maybe some accompanying documentation that proves you have sole dominion over who can and can't post in this thread? If you are able to produce such evidence I will respectfully cease and desist.Quote:
Stay out of my thread from now on.
I am not trying to attack your character. If I was to make an ad hominem attack I'd ask rhetorical questions like, "What does a guy named Kimarhi Ronso truly know about character uniqueness? Does he have any authoritative opinion on the subject?" but that would be a logical fallacy and would be ignoring the points you've tried to make without furthering the discussion.Quote:
You had some points, but trying to bad mouth me?
I've said it in another thread and I really hope you heed the suggestion that you shouldn't state things as fact when they are not. It adds nothing to your proposal and only serves to hurt your credibility. Not only that, but I've taken the time to carefully respond to every point you make. I'm not completely disregarding your points. I may be making them invalid, but I'm not disregarding them.Quote:
Fact is that you completely disregarded what I said.
Again, you're making false assumptions and criticisms of the XIV community that haven't occurred yet and completely ignoring those already existing in XI.Quote:
Which being that it would probably turn into everyone leveling a certain class just for the ability to slap it on a better class.
-Samurai post Hasso and Seigan
-/Ninja for almost everyone
I never once suggested that you were an idiot. I do believe you are letting your emotions cloud your judgment but I never suggested that you were an idiot. I listed all of the Final Fantasy systems to show you that they were different and also to show you the similarities XIV shares with XI. It was indeed a direct response to your claim that they should "improve THAT system." If you didn't get that I apologize. I thought I was making it clear.Quote:
You act like I'm the idiot, yet I'm not the one listing every FF ever developed to try and prove a point over new class systems.
You still fail to even consider that the reason we have this liberty is that the restrictive nature of XI was a huge complaint even from that community. It took too long to form a party, and when someone had to go, for whatever reason, the group was unable to adapt to the changes and was forced to either disband or "go back to town" which resulted in more time not playing the game. This liberty is not a problem, it's what I've been arguing the entire time. I've already shown how it helps you adapt to an ever changing environment. The thing is, you spend time playing the game in XIV, not waiting like in XI. A strict class system like the one you suggest will pigeon hole people to an unnecessary degree. XIV's system works great for people with lives, that is why I like it. To quote Naoki Yoshida from the very "Letter from the Producer" blog post that you keep referencing:Quote:
Here's your problem. This liberty you have? Works great for a single player RPG.
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Naoki Yoshida from "Letter from the Producer V":
I imagine for many people it might go something like this: real life obligations at school or work → can't play for prolonged periods of time → log into a game with mostly party-based content → spend time looking for a party → end up losing actual game time. I'm well aware of these issues, and promise not to let vicious cycles like this dominate FFXIV's gameplay. I'm on it. ☺
My argument is that it works great for Final Fantasy XIV as well as single player RPGs specifically for the reasons cited above. Challenge is not wiping to a Twenty two hour long boss fight. Challenge is not waiting for a party. Challenge is not time spent. Challenge is the level of difficulty in which it takes to accomplish a certain goal. Challenge is a monster's stat change away. Waiting and wasting time not playing the game is not a challenge.Quote:
How about you go back to single player RPG and leave this game to someone who loves a challenge?
What are you even getting at here? I know about class locked gear. My argument is that you have to be aware that the gear you may be wearing may not be for your class and it is easily spelled out in the gear descriptions what classes are favored and which are not. You're also forgetting that classes aren't jobs or even roles, and the role you serve in a party is dependent on who is in the party. You don't need class locked gear for certain pieces to be better or more sought after than another. You made no point here.Quote:
Ah. The optimal gear you say? Really.......Well maybe you should mold your mind over certain pieces of gear that was only job specific such as AF, Relic, and various other pieces obtained through questing or synthesis.
Again, your point being? You can still create tough monsters. There are tough monsters right now that Cure II and Sacrifice II won't be of any consequence. Pull any number of your Rank 25 friends and see how you fair against Elder Mosshorn. Go ahead. Make a video of your victory at Rank 25 and I'll gladly stop posting in your threads. I'm sure you have access to Sacrfice II and Cure II so it should be a snap. If you do, congratulations, you obviously have found a way to defeat a tough enemy and thought outside the box to do so. I will gladly applaud you for that commendable achievement.Quote:
and making enemies more difficult to cope with this system? Please. That's about as useful as a 30 second cooldown for everyone being able to use sacrifice II & cure II. Just useless.
You're only hurting your own reputation. Besides that, just because you say it's "rather stupid" does not make it so. There are already class specific weaponskills and I mentioned that in my post. There are already things that make the classes different from each other and I, and others, have already made those points. You may be reading the words on the screen but I don't think you are comprehending them. Please read more carefully.Quote:
Let's not forget about the weaponskills you like. Rather stupid that if a class is based on a weapon, then why does it allow their weaponskills to be transfered? Dur!
I didn't ask that. I asked:Quote:
Oh. And why did I choose to be a Samurai, Monk, and Black Mage main?
I wasn't asking why you specifically leveled those particular jobs, and you failed to acknowledge the second question. Next time you can include the question in your answer and you'll do a much better job at answering it. I don't have to agree with it. That is not a parameter that makes an answer correct or not. You can go ahead and try again if you so wish to do so, but the majority of your post was either a deep misunderstanding of my position and the source material or you skipping subjects you aren't comfortable with tackling.Quote:
What was the motivation behind leveling any bandwagon job in XI? Is that a sign that people want to be unique or is that a sign that people want to remain viable?
Oh really. Thank you.Quote:
Now I'm going to go ahead and let you read this.
I post on an official community forum to help add to the community discussion. I am not concerned if you ever get this, but will use this opportunity to use you as an example. I have not personally attacked you, I don't see why you would put me on your ignore list, but to each their own. Everyone should have the freedom to do so, and I'm not against that. I'm hoping that I add perspective to the community knowledge base and that is why I post. I believe I have achieved that in all of my posts, if I didn't feel a post would do such a thing I wouldn't bother to respond.Quote:
However I'm going to add you to yet as another person on my ignore list when you try to respond to me.
I don't think I've wasted my time. As stated above, my post doesn't necessarily have to make it to your eyes. Its contents still have purpose for those who peruse this thread and I'd wager that you do not own these threads so you have no legitimacy behind your commanding tone. Farewell.Quote:
So don't waste your time, and stay out of my thread. Goodbye.
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03-29-2011, 12:17 AMKimahri
Well first off by letting me say I'm sorry. Some of your statements did seem demanding rather than suggestions to which I took offense. I won't add you to an ignore list, need to talk this situation out.
I know how people feel about party play and waiting times to obtain a party when they have a restricted schedule due to work, school, chores, or other activities. I do not oppose any ways that someone could level based on the time he/she has. I think that was the reason as to guildleve and the fatigue system. I just want to have some form of party play to gain more experience. I used to think while playing XI that I wish I could solo more often....Now that I solo all the time though? I get bored rather quick.
Hold on, I'm not very good at doing the quote thing so let me give it a try.
I hope that worked as planned. Now when I gave my response, I thought I was leaning on the first point. Being unique to myself. Remaining viable had nothing to do with anything. Every job was used in certain degree's of being helpful. A monk would be a great DD in parties and very great at duo, but in some endgame scenes it was rather lacking in physical stamina and resorted to chi blast tactics. Thief wasn't a hot topic in parties, but would deal about the same damage as DD if built correctly. In the endgame scene it was used mostly as a TH looter and to establish hate back onto the tank.Quote:
What was the motivation behind leveling any bandwagon job in XI? Is that a sign that people want to be unique or is that a sign that people want to remain viable?
The list could go on and on. No job was considered less valuable than the other in the terms of motivation to level. It was the player's choice in what he liked best about each individual job that decided which he would level. That's why there was so much variety in everyone's preference to level which jobs they wanted. It was only the content of the game play and strategies that determined it's value to certain aspects of the game. Would be great on certain things, yet so-so in others. That was a great balance.
Now when I talked about weaponskills, I showed my distaste for the current system. There might be some class specific weaponskills, but with a class being limited to only one weapon I do not see why other weapons' skills should be allowed to be used on a different weapon. In the previous model you were able to equip different weapons and use the same besides a select few because you were also able to use that weapon. I hope you're understanding what I'm trying to say. I wouldn't have a problem with using weaponskills off other weapons if you were able to equip those weapons. You couldn't use Red Lotus Blade when using a Great Sword.
Again. I'm sorry for the disrespect I've shown. I can be aggresive at times. Just want this game to flourish like it's predecessors. Just right now I don't feel that spark. If you'd like, I'd love to talk about this in a more civil discussion and I promise I'll try to hold my tonque. -
03-31-2011, 07:36 AMKimahriWell this certainly is some good news. I'm especially excited when they talked about, "classes should have unique qualities and stats," even though they were just refering to it as it was being discussed by us, it made an impression to them. Would really love to hear a post from the dev team as to any updates about this class uniqueness soon.Quote:
I do not feel that the implementation of auto-attack will solve everything. In other threads there have been many topics coming up about what is going to happen to the stamina gauge and claim system, how classes should have unique qualities and stats, what’s going to happen with monsters, raid dungeons, equipment, etc. I have looked over all of the great number of elements and at the current stage feel that without implementing auto-attack that the future battle system would be impossible.
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03-31-2011, 09:55 AMGrissI think we all do kimahri. What ever they do its a big decision and one that they have said is a one shot deal. I love the idea behind the current system. A player rigging themselves for the situation at hand and changing up there load out as needed. as well as being able to bring in aspects from the other "Classes" to help augment that. Its pretty darned nifty but some can not wrap there heads around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
But hey at the end of the day if the route they end up taking is fun but still malleable enough for a player to rig for a given situation i say bring it on. -
03-31-2011, 10:08 AMKimahri
Yeah. I love the fact that you can change classes with the click of a button no matter where you're at. I just feel that the current system is a wee bit loosey goosey when it comes to instilling a sense of a role to a certain class. People can argue this fact with me, but a lot of people agreed with me when Yoshida asked the second quesitonaire. I think it said about 22% of people think that one of the major concerns with the battle system is the class uniqueness. Next highest was spamming actions at 19%, and finally insufficient effect from attributes at 16%.
There are certainly a lot of things that need fixing in this game, but right now this is one of my things most concerned over. I'd love to see a sense of being unique like I did when leveling Samurai as my first in FFXI.