Spell request for Scholar [Dev]

Can we please have Shell as a new Team buff. I feel that the team is lesser geared with the crappy version of protect that the paladins can put on us.

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg

We don't need this. There are a lot of problems with the idea of this being added.

Examples: Stacking with Proshell (Why wouldn't it? It would be able to be applied with Protect), Shell would(should) be a WHM spell (See: Proshell), Eos and magic damage reduction. There are more.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Can we please have Shell as a new Team buff. I feel that the team is lesser geared with the crappy version of protect that the paladins can put on us.

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Shell is basically taken by the white mages traited protect.

I'd just like for our gimpy protect to overwrite a WHM's protect so I'm not stuck having to recast it 5 minutes into a DF run.

Maybe during the expansion we can Cross Class traits as well? As WHM i'd like to have Supervirus or Improved Eye for an Eye.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

I'd just like for our gimpy protect to overwrite a WHM's protect so I'm not stuck having to recast it 5 minutes into a DF run.

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Why would you want it to override a WHM's protect? You'd remove the Shell effect on people who have it already and gimp their magic defense boost.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Why would you want it to override a WHM's protect? You'd remove the Shell effect on people who have it already and gimp their magic defense boost.

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I think he's talking about when someone joins your party with Protect already on, the SCH one won't overwrite it so 3 people get 30 minutes of protect while that one guy has 3 minutes of enhanced protect, thus forcing the SCH to recast protect in 3 minutes to rebuff that guy.

Stacking Shell, Proshell (Protect + Traited WHM Shell) on top of Fey Covenant's would be very powerful.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Can we please have Shell as a new Team buff. I feel that the team is lesser geared with the crappy version of protect that the paladins can put on us.

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Scholar already gets a Shell-type buff. Check your Eos petbar. And Sacred Soil gives further mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Scholar already gets a Shell-type buff. Check your Eos petbar. And Sacred Soil gives further mitigation.

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I'm talking about a 30 min buff.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

Stacking Shell, Proshell (Protect + Traited WHM Shell) on top of Fey Covenant's would be very powerful.

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Well they could make it where Shell removes proshell.

I don't really see a point in adding in the spell Shell when Proshell does what you want but better. The word "Proshell" also includes the word Shell, which I do believe is just Square Enix's way of combining the two spells without needing to have to actually use Protect, Shell and then (Swiftcast+) Stoneskin II.

What is your reason as to why you would like the spell Shell versus bringing in a White Mage that can use Proshell?

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Originally Posted by Parawill

I don't really see a point in adding in the spell Shell when Proshell does what you want but better. The word "Proshell" also includes the word Shell, which I do believe is just Square Enix's way of combining the two spells without needing to have to actually use Protect, Shell and then (Swiftcast+) Stoneskin II.

What is your reason as to why you would like the spell Shell versus bringing in a White Mage that can use Proshell?

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Because I play scholar.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Because I play scholar.

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I facepalmed so hard that my palm became my face...

So by this logic, White Mages should get:
Benediction with 3s recast
A fairy pet too
Shroud on a 1 minute recast
unavoidable DoTs
stoneskin as additional effect to Cure II

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

So by this logic, White Mages should get:
Benediction with 3s recast
A fairy pet too
Shroud on a 1 minute recast
unavoidable DoTs
stoneskin as additional effect to Cure II

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I could spin all day with that Benediction recast time! I'd love it LOL!

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I facepalmed so hard that my palm became my face...

So by this logic, White Mages should get:
Benediction with 3s recast
A fairy pet too
Shroud on a 1 minute recast
unavoidable DoTs
stoneskin as additional effect to Cure II

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Hey, was just answering his question. He asked why should shell exist when I could just bring in a white mage. It's because I play scholar and so do alot of other people. Besides your list is a bit ridiculous.

Strangely as I run through dungeons as either dps or tank I see very few WHM, but it seems that scholar has become the norm. You could have made the argument that proshell is there to make up for the fact that scholar has pets and can place barriers on people, and white mage is just a walking first aid.

If anything is ridiculous, it's the existence of this topic.

For starters: Any content where there is no white mage present, mainly due to 4-man content, has no significant magic damage flying around anywhere.
Additionally: If there is continuous magic damage present, Eos' Fey Covenant actually offers more magical defense than Shell does for the moment you need it.
Lastly: They're dungeons, content that has nearly no difficulty value. If you desperately -need- that magical defense effect on the tank to be able to make healing work, I simply don't know what to say.

The list I mentioned may be ridiculous, but it's in line with your way of thinking: If there's no scholar for dungeons

SCH's dont have enough spells? I for one hope 2.0 brings new spells that REPLACE the lower lever spells, or simply improve on them passively. Gamepad hotbars are saturated enough already!

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

For starters: Any content where there is no white mage present, mainly due to 4-man content, has no significant magic damage flying around anywhere.
Additionally: If there is continuous magic damage present, Eos' Fey Covenant actually offers more magical defense than Shell does for the moment you need it.
Lastly: They're dungeons, content that has nearly no difficulty value. If you desperately -need- that magical defense effect on the tank to be able to make healing work, I simply don't know what to say.

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Fey Covenant has a short duration with a 120 cooldown time. Plus didn't I say that you can use scholar's pets as an argument as to why white mage has proshell. I believe that I said that in my last post. Your right the dungeon content isn't hard I was making more of an suggestion rather then a request(should really change the title). If this topic is so ridiculous why are you even here?

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Originally Posted by radioactive_lego

SCH's dont have enough spells? I for one hope 2.0 brings new spells that REPLACE the lower lever spells, or simply improve on them passively. Gamepad hotbars are saturated enough already!

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True, if macros won't in the game it would be insanely hard to play scholar on gamepad.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Strangely as I run through dungeons as either dps or tank I see very few WHM, but it seems that scholar has become the norm. You could have made the argument that proshell is there to make up for the fact that scholar has pets and can place barriers on people, and white mage is just a walking first aid.

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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg

What game are you playing? I EASILY see that about 75% of the healers are WHM. Run Alliance Raids, you'll rarely see more SCHs then WHMs(You usually see 4 WHMs or at least I do) I can't see how anyone can say that SCH has become the "norm". There may be more SCHs going into dungeons currently but that's because Dungeons are easy and SCHs make them even easier (unless its a Speedrun dungeon, then
WHM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SCH) by basically just being another DPS with a heal bot. Besides, Magic Defense isn't needed in dungeons, usually.

I main SCH and this is one of the silliest things I've ever read suggested for a SCH. Not only is it a huge balance issue, it is not needed and you have no REAL reason you think it should be in the game.

Side: You obviously know nothing about a WHM if you call them a "walking first aid".

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Snip.

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I love you.


On the topic of Macros: other than allowing me to cast E4E and Virus on my designated target while targeting the boss(mob)/Tank, a Rez macro, and having a Rouse>Fey Illumination>Whispering Dawn macro, I don't see how macros are THAT useful for a SCH. I only use those, and 3 Cross hotbars and I find it easy.

So OP just wants the ability to have Protoshell because he doesn't use WHM. Sorry, but exclusive abilities and traits should stay in their respective jobs and classes. Otherwise every character will be further watered down and we'd end up with even more uniformed party line ups.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Snip.

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Explain to me how white mage isn't a first aid.
On the macro topic: I have my cross bar down to 2 hotbars thanks to macros. I have the dps hotbar and the healer hotbar.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Side: You obviously know nothing about a WHM if you call them a "walking first aid".

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That he wants SCHs to be able to go from 30% magic damage mitigation to 40% while replacing the need for a WHM suggests to me he doesn't know SCH that well either...^^;

I can understand the desire to have a longer term buff associated with the job but I don't think Shell is the way to go. Something that complements WHM instead of trying to replace WHM would be great. (But, forum SCHs do seem to resent that WHM has a place at all...)

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

snip

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I know how to play Sch pretty decently I believe. Well to the point where no one dies and I can dps a bit. 40% magic damage mitigation is ridiculous. I'm looking for more of a 10% then add Fey Covenant it would just make it 30%. Plus they should make it where shell and proshell can't be on the team at the same time, so if you place proshell on the team it removes shell if you place shell on the team it removes proshell. Also I love having WHM on my team when I'm raiding or doing turns, because having 1 Sch and 1 WHM makes a big difference from having 2 of the same.

No. Any content where a SCH is by themselves, you won't need shell anyway.

Instead, what you should be asking for is proshell to be cross classable. As it currently stands, for any serious raid group you will probably want a WHM just for proshell alone. This means when AST comes out most raid comps for progression will begin as WHM + SCH/AST.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Instead, what you should be asking for is proshell to be cross classable. As it currently stands, for any serious raid group you will probably want a WHM just for proshell alone. This means when AST comes out most raid comps for progression will begin as WHM + SCH/AST.

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In that case, make Summon cross classable <- I hope you realise the problem with this.

Also: A raid group taking white mage only for proshell? Are you for real?

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

I know how to play Sch pretty decently I believe. Well to the point where no one dies and I can dps a bit. 40% magic damage mitigation is ridiculous. I'm looking for more of a 10% then add Fey Covenant it would just make it 30%. Plus they should make it where shell and proshell can't be on the team at the same time, so if you place proshell on the team it removes shell if you place shell on the team it removes proshell. Also I love having WHM on my team when I'm raiding or doing turns, because having 1 Sch and 1 WHM makes a big difference from having 2 of the same.

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Don't forget sacred soil. I understand it would be nice to have a longer term buff but SCH's short term ones already make it a very powerful mitigation job (30% magic mitigation, make that 40% if you have a WHM with you, then SCH/SMN-only virus--fever technically--further reduces the power of magic attacks. Then you have Succor to group shield people, and a group regen that's as powerful as my single target regen.). In any case, if it gets a long term buff I don't think it should replace WHM's one.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Also: A raid group taking white mage only for proshell? Are you for real?

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Yes... as mentioned, a lot of forum SCHs seem to resent that WHM has a role of its own. They're serious.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Yes... as mentioned, a lot of forum SCHs seem to resent that WHM has a role of its own. They're serious.

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Oh I know them well enough. I dubbed them Scholar Bandwagon Hippies*.

* Doesn't apply to real Scholars

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

In that case, make Summon cross classable <- I hope you realise the problem with this.

Also: A raid group taking white mage only for proshell? Are you for real?

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I am for real~ I swear, I'm not Akiza =p

You don't take a WHM only for Proshell, that was a strong and intentional hyperbole on my part just to invoke a reaction. As a healer main who plays both classes, I understand what the WHM tool kit brings to any raid and want to slap at SCH fanboy who thinks otherwise.

With that being said, I want to see Proshell being cross classed for class balancing come 3.0, and here's my rational behind it:

2.4-2.5 Raiding Meta
There are two healing slots, and two healers. WHM/SCH is the ideal combination for several reasons. (1) Their spells and abilities have high synergy. One handles raid heals, other can do single target heal. One has raw heals, the other has mitigation tools. etc etc. (2) You want to avoid stacking any singular class due the restrictions if has on limit break [this is a bit weaker reason, but valid]. Because you'll always wants WHM/SCH, the idea of "not having a WHM" will never dawn because of how the current raid meta is. Therefore, Proshell will always be readily available for any end game raid outside of a select niche of compositions.

Potential 3.0 Raid Meta
We have now introduced AST to the mix. There are now THREE healer choices for TWO raid slots. My assumptions on the 3.0 raid meta is based on current Final Coil meta (up to Turn 12) and the current skill sets of WHM and SCH, and knowing nothing about AST. The goal is to balance all three healing classes so they can be chosen for any scenario of raiding.

If neither SCH nor AST brings a 30min Shell-like buff to the party that stacks with Protect, WHM will be a favoured staple for any progressing raid because it effectively adds more eHP to the raid via higher mitigation.

I feel my rational for wanting Proshell as a true crossclass is quite justified.

Let's look at Final Coil
Heat Lightning, Cyclonic Torrent, Nerve Cloud, Flames of Rebirth, Flames of Unforgiveness, I imagine the explosion on Brand swap, are all magical in nature. There's no way SCH currently has the tools to provide a MDEF buff to every single instance an attack comes out. AST might, but I'm going under the assumption they cannot until we see otherwise. WHM provides a direct and free mitigation bonus to these attacks in the form of Proshell. Alternatively, this means more eHP.

Now, having not done T13 yet, I hear T13 is a HUUUUUUUUUGE HP check. What happens if you can't stack more HP? Then you add mitigation tools. Proshell provides, once again, a free mitigation tool that is applied once at the beginning of the fight and left there to do its business for the duration of the fight. This in turn provides a eHP boost to your party at no cost to the healer in the middle of the fight.

A healer's job is to prevent death and make sure the others can keep doing what they do best - smashing the baddie into the ground. Tell me, would you forgo a pseudo-permanent defensive shield for your raid, while you're progressing? If the HP checks remain the same as they are now, you'll want to stack as much HP / eHP abilities as possible to survive those checks. If 3.0 raids follow this trend, it'll be important for progression groups to level as many bonuses as they can for their group and Proshell will remain invaluable for that in the grand scheme of things.

This is why I feel it's important for Proshell to be distributed to ALL classes - to encourage healer balance. Without it, I feel raid groups will lean towards a WHM + other healer composition because Proshell is a free mitigation tool, which is the icing on the WHM toolkit cake.

Again, this wall of text assumes nothing about the AST abilities and takes assumptions on the current FCoB meta. My thought process may very well change once we see the 3.0 spell and ability list for all healers released.

[EDIT]
P.S. I enjoyed watching your banter with Akiza on the DPS forums, lol. Someone does have to do it eventually >.>;

As a more practical consideration, I've yet to ever see a trait become cross-classable.

I'd accept giving up proshell exclusivity in return for SCH-equivalent E4E and Virus+Fever, but realistically? No, I don't think they're going to cross class it. Far more likely is AST will have mitigation in some form. SCH, being a job all about mitigation, it's hard to not see that toolkit getting further added to. But proshell cross class? Extremely unlikely, from my standpoint anyway. And... don't forget SE is moving away from the class system.

Well, your assumptions may be correct. But on the contrary it may not be correct. Simply for the fact we know nothing what's coming in 3.0 and whether it'll follow the same rhythm or not. It can go both ways really

Pattern indicating that White Mage will always have a spot
If you'd look at past raid content, starting from BCoB to FCoB you'll notice a certain trend that there's more and more AoE healing necessary. With BCoB inexperienced White Mages struggle handling the healing game for Turn 5. It's easily to work around the infirmity debuff if you know how. But it's quite a hindrance for those who are progressing through the content. It's been mentioned before in another topic that double scholars were "a thing" a while back for Turn 5 - or BCoB in general. I admittedly have done that too for Turn 5, simply because it was easier to deal with while being undergeared.

With the introduction of SCoB, the need for White Mages became more apparent. Turn 6 and 8 had significantly more AoE healing required than in BCoB. While progressing you needed every single bit of mitigation for Turn 9 Gigaflare transition.

Now that we're at FCoB, the presence of a white mage is highly desired. Most of the players are still progressing in it.

I mentioned progression a lot. Once the entire party is overgeared anything is solo-healable. Remember the 3-healer meta for Titan hard mode?

Pattern indication that White Mages may not have a spot
One word: Balance. Square-Enix has been tuning classes here and there so any content can be done with any party setup. If a third healer is to be introduced, it should be possible to clear content with any combination of the three. Be it astrologian + scholar, scholar + white mage or white mage + astrologian.

There's also another thing whether they're keeping the armory system or not in 3.0. The new jobs don't have a base class, after all. An indication of base classes being abolished, perhaps? I have no idea!

But don't forget though: The reason why raid parties bring in a White Mage and Scholar combo isn't solely for building limit breaks or for the mind bonus. It's simply because a White Mage is potentially a better main healer and scholar a potentially better supportive healer. If we were to bring two of the same classes who are both a main healer or supportive healer, this will lead to:
1: A shitton of overhealing (white mage + white mage)
2: Really awkward healing game and a lot of stack burns on lustrate because both healers are in Cleric's stance (scholar + scholar)

Simply due to the clash of healing roles in mind and assumption. I think it's safe to assume that this "theory", about main- and supportive healers, will stay even after Astrologian is introduced. After all: Astrologian may have more DPS/buffing potential than Scholars, which pushes scholars towards the main healer role and Scholars taking over the supportive role if they're paired up. Or Astrologians may have a toolkit more suitable for main healing. Who knows, it's really what the playerbase makes out of it.

Fun fact: In Final Fantasy XI Samurai and Ninja were introduced simultaneously. Samurai was designed as a tanking class and Ninja as a DPS class. Interestingly enough the playerbase flipped it around and made the Samurai the DPS class and Ninja the tank class. Astrologian may even be used as a tank in 3.0! (although unlikely)

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

There's also another thing whether they're keeping the armory system or not in 3.0. The new jobs don't have a base class, after all. An indication of base classes being abolished, perhaps? I have no idea!

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Just to quickly add... So the class system was basically grandfathered in from 1.x. In early 1.x, there were no jobs. They were later added, with increased specialization in a role for the benefit of a party but at the cost of solo capability/versatility that classes had.

This was grandfathered into 2.0. A bit unnecessary since each job can solo just fine. Moreover, the devs in interviews have expressed malcontent with it, especially the way it worked out for ACN->SMN/SCH, for example. With the absence of new classes and the ability to play jobs from level 1 in Heavensward, I think it's safe to say their direction is to move away from classes.

Don't mistake this for the armory system, however. That is, by all indications, here to stay and not practical to remove.

Indeed, everything being discussed is upon pure conjecture and speculation. I particularly enjoy this because its fun to speculate without going overboard *glares at other parts of the forum* It'll be fun to see how AST fits into the grand scheme of things once 3.0 is released and I'll definitely be leveling it after I get WHM + SCH to 60.

To answer the comment about proshell trait being cross classed, the easiest solution is remove the trait from proshell, make protect into proshell, and find something else to trait on CNJ (maybe something to enhance Stone II =D ). I can see that working if they go with what I suggested.

I personally don't expect the cross class system to be removes at this juncture. While the new jobs are jobs, I feel they will follow current hierarchy of having two sub jobs they can draw abilities from, one every ten levels. I can see a complication in the future where they will need to reevaluate which jobs can draw from other jobs as the job pool becomes more diverse.

Funny XI was brought up as I am familiar with that story. I was a WHM only in XI but there was so much you could on WHM that it was a blast. Finding things outside the box for XI was thrilling and exhilarating. I particular enjoyed finding as many things to solo as possible on WHM. Shame the rigidness of XIV prevents that to a degree.

[EDIT] Also, I apologize that my initial comment about Proshell was ambiguous, I was writing from my phone and wanted to keep the dialogue short and curt. Didn't mean to offend anyone, lol.

Well, nothing's impossible, but I think it's a lot more likely (with the expansion/level cap increase) they'll add something new instead of making one of WHM's signature things cross class. I'll also fall back on the argument that SCHs have tons of magic attack mitigation already... 30%, then add in Fever and adlo/succor. It just seems unlikely they'll buff* an area where SCH is already so strong.

*Above and beyond whatever new toys SCH is getting in the expansion, anyway.

And... I don't really have anywhere else to go with my viewpoint so I'll probably stop here unless something new comes up.

edit (Also, I was referring to XIV 1.0, not XI...)

Well, I suppose I should have called it "job system" rather than "Armoury". Armoury features the equiping a weapon = become a class thing after all.

There's also a thing about cross classing. With the level cap increased by 10 levels, that means we get 2 more cross class skills to pick from. At one point the additional slots are going to be either OP or useless. Just an assumption, but I do believe additional cross class skills will just be there "because it's there".

Let's take Black Mage for example. 5 slots and they get to pick from: Ruin, Physick, Virus, Eye for an Eye, Raging Strikes, Hawk's Eye, Quelling Strikes.
The three new classes are Astrologian (healer), Machinist (ranged physical DPS) and Dark Knight (tank). The main reason Black Mages get to cross class abilities from Archer is because you have to level archer in order to become a Black Mage - Which may also change upon arrival of new classes, however. Unless they get to get abilities from Astrologian or Machinist, Black Mages won't get anything new to fill those two slots with. If this is the case: What else are they supposed to cross class? Ruin? (lol)

Of course with the level cap increased by 10 also means a mix of 5 new abilities, spells or traits. Additionally 2 more abilities from the job quests. That is, if we keep getting new ones every 5 levels like now. All together, that's at least 4 abilities and a mix of 5 abilities, spells and traits.

That's pretty much the whole reason why I'm suspecting they're going to change the system. But it comes down to mere suspicions and they may just very well break off from the pattern as we know now. We'll know when 3.0 hits :P

edit: I suppose having 5 more abilities/spells/traits also means potential cross class stuff too. But the nothing-to-cross-class-so-I'll-cross-class-ruin! still stands x)

In terms of Armory adjustments / cross-classes, I'm personally expecting them to eventually re-work which jobs each class/job will be able to grab abilities from or even add a third job they can pool abilities from eventually so the old classes/jobs can get abilities from new jobs.