Make relics the best weapons 100% time

Relics should be the best weapons you could use 100% the time, not just 2-3 months every 6 months.

I think that an easy solution would be to make possible to get items to upgrade relics in two ways. Playing endgame(coil or whatever) and/or grinding. So hardcore people can get their relic upgrade earlier than casual ppl. Grinding method should have week cap so its not possible to get relic upgrade on the firsts weeks of the patch.

I would like to see special stats/buffs on relics for 3.0 like in FFXIV 1.0 or FFXI. Not just flat stats. I liked random dmg increase in relics in FFXI or special/unique buffs to your job with mythic weapon from FFXI too.

Gae Bolg FFXIV 1.0:
http://i.imgur.com/Rt40A.jpg

Also, it would be great to see rare armor with special stats too. Armor that is hard to get(just for difficulty, grinding or rare drop). Not need to add allways set armors.


FFXIV its very good MMO, just need some adjustments to make it perfect.


EDIT for clarification


One example:

New endgame patch has 4 turns.
You need to farm 30 Looking Forward Notes(LFN)
If you complete turn 3 then you get X LFN.
If you complete turn 4 then you get 2X LFN.
If you grind it doing IDK quest then you get Y per week.


People that just raid can get their relic faster than grinding, if you do raid+grind then you will be the very first because you are a hardcore machine. Grinding ppl eventually will get it without get burned. ALL HAPPY! :D

And if last turn drop weapons(same ilvl as relic but less powerfull because it has not special/unique buffs) they can equip their alters while they farm their first, second, third,.... all relics they want faster than everyone, because hardcores own eorzea with their epeen power OMFG

Time between fastest way possible and grind method is what we should discuss. I have no problem with raid ppl getting their epeen weapon some weeks or 1+ month before others.

if they did that then no1 would raid.. yoshi stated that a whiles back relics will always be 2nd best weapons in game behind raid weapons

i actually enjoy the long grind for relic in most cases occasionally ill get bored so ill work on somethin else for a while to recharge the batteries :3 gives more sense of accomplishment working for somethin that requires alot of effort in my opinion ;3

the problem is... the "grinding" way isn't really for casuals. I don't think casuals want to spend too much times doing those boring stuffs.

It's sounds nice in theory, but the problem with special stat's on weapon/armour etc is that groups will pretty much require you to have those weapons for raiding etc.

I really think that the best weapons should always be from raiding. I raid myself but I never get to the last turns before the new relic comes still I think that people who are able to clear turns that fast should be rewarded more than others.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I really think that the best weapons should always be from raiding. I raid myself but I never get to the last turns before the new relic comes still I think that people who are able to clear turns that fast should be rewarded more than others.

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Thats why i said that grinding method should have a weekly cap. Raid groups could get their weapons upgraded some weeks earlier(or even 1+ month ) than "casuals".

I like how relics are the only purple text/icon items in the whole game which should make them more rare and powerful, at least if you follow the FF history. Still they are always weaker than most weapons you can get in the new updates. I think that makes no sense at all. So either dye the text to blue or even green or make them really powerful. Seriously.

They should make a Ultimate wpn which combines raid+relic wpn parts,
and only when wpn is 100% spiritbonded, wpn will then be at full potential.
with stats +20% more than any raid or relic wpns.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

the problem is... the "grinding" way isn't really for casuals. I don't think casuals want to spend too much times doing those boring stuffs.

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i only manage to get in a few hours a day due to every day responsibilities but im like 200ish lights away from nexus so it is possible.. considering how easy they make previous upgrades lol esiecally the lights since 2.5 patch u can get them way to fast now lol i was 700 away 2 days ago lol

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I really think that the best weapons should always be from raiding. I raid myself but I never get to the last turns before the new relic comes still I think that people who are able to clear turns that fast should be rewarded more than others.

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Agreed.I'm a bit slow in progressing with raids too, but I do believe that people able to clear turns should get the best equipment.
Also to me it's hard to understand why getting the 2nd most powerful weapon is often a matter of luck.

At first, getting your relic required skill (if you weren't able to clear Titan HM, you couldn't have it) and it made sense to me. I know that not everybody are into primals ex and raids, but it's this type of contents that really requires a strong weapon. Right? I mean, if I am doing only dungeons and old content, I can perfectly do this with token-weapons or crafted weapon.

So far, I have really taken my time with the relic because of Atmas and the chances of failing a materia melding with alexandrite (that's another thing I don't understand: you spend millions of gills for a LV4 materia that you might even lose, to me it's just evil). If it was a matter of skill, I would accept not being able to upgrade my relic because I just wouldn't be good enough. Having to fight with my "lack of luck", which is something i cannot control, is frustrating. :(

A lot of the time I feel the RNG of the quest line as a whole doesn't reflect upon the reward of the upgrade. I mean heck, some people finished the newest one in 30 hours and I know I've run more than 30 hours of Haukke Manor hard mode just for 1 drop. Even then, the upgrade once finished is 10 levels lower than raid weapons and only 5 levels higher than a new Tome weapon, also restricted to coil.

honestly I did not read any posts other then the title and all I can say is:

agree 100% op

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

if they did that then no1 would raid..

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I'm sorry but I don't agree, like not at all, being someone who raid since 2.0 this statement isn't true for all raiders, a big majority of us actually raid for the content and the challenge itself and then for gears / weapons.
Not all raiders are greedy people who are only aiming for gears and weapons, it's just a bonus to make things easier in raid contents.

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

It's sounds nice in theory, but the problem with special stat's on weapon/armour etc is that groups will pretty much require you to have those weapons for raiding etc.

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Trust me or not but hardcore raiders and in a general mood all raiders would do it in order to raid, most raiders consider relic weapons as "toys for casuals and way too easy to do".

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Originally Posted by Evangela

the problem is... the "grinding" way isn't really for casuals. I don't think casuals want to spend too much times doing those boring stuffs.

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And it's then not a problem, most casuals don't raid at all so why would they need weapons to raid?
If they don't have the times to spend to raid, they just also don't have enough times to build a relic, all other contents of the game but coil raids doesn't need best gears/weapons (Ilevel infos needed on duty finder contents is there for a reason).

OP's suggestion is actually brilliant in many ways because it offer alternate solutions to both sides. Did you even read it?
People who don't raid but are still aiming for long side quests like relics would still be able to run toward their goals and meanwhile, raiders would get the final reward a bit earlier than other.

For once that someone is making an useful thread with a very smart idea, you guys should cheer him up a bit.
It kill me inside to see people complaining without solid arguments by just tossing the regular stereotypes like "lol-nope, would never work", "too hard for new players!", "raiders=greedy and casuals=lazy".

Relics should NEVER be the best weapon you can obtain.

I would be okay with it if you need to beat the last turn of the coil for that patch to complete it (t13 right now), so at least you'd get a nice weapon if you get screwed by Mr. RNG.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

if they did that then no1 would raid.. yoshi stated that a whiles back relics will always be 2nd best weapons in game behind raid weapons

i actually enjoy the long grind for relic in most cases occasionally ill get bored so ill work on somethin else for a while to recharge the batteries :3 gives more sense of accomplishment working for somethin that requires alot of effort in my opinion ;3

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to be fair mate nexus already WAS better than high allagan when it come out. i also bet on the current relic to become i135 when 2.51 hits since its likely the last upgrade before lvl cap raise which will likely see a completly new relicquest. the relic catched up with endlevel raid weapons before 2.4 was released (about a month or so) this time it will be the same. raiders had thier i135 for over 4 months when 2.51 lands which is roughly one month less than back then with nexus. since they will likely add the tombstone to ct3 with 2.51 its very likely the relic will get a bump to i135 aswell to make it worth getting since from the release of 2.51 i bets its at most 10 weeks till lvl cap raise anyway.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

the problem is... the "grinding" way isn't really for casuals. I don't think casuals want to spend too much times doing those boring stuffs.

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This.

The relic upgrade is a pretty time demanding endeavor more designed for those who are willing to persevere (Yoshida himself described it as such). It is more accessible to casual players than raiding is, yes, but that does not making the grind itself "casual". It's closer to hardcore in that regard. Earlier stages become less hardcore as time goes on and they are made easier, but to keep up to date with the relic grind is far from casual.

The difference, however, is that the relic upgrade requires no skill. Just time.

Raiding weapons requires both skill and time.

Thus the rewards for raiding should be higher than the other.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

if they did that then no1 would raid..

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Include Raids on progress of relict and you have your players!
Problem here is to not bound it on a win...

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Originally Posted by Evangela

the problem is... the "grinding" way isn't really for casuals. I don't think casuals want to spend too much times doing those boring stuffs.

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Casual is defined by the content you're doing, not by playtime.

If the game had a way to obtain a weapon comparable to the most recent relic stage in a quick way, well, THAT would be problem... ^^

There is a fact that is often ignored in this argument, and it is that as patches continue to flow in, the relic takes more effort to obtain. Just think of when it first released versus how it is now, and then consider that they're probably going to extend the relic line into Heavensward. It's interesting to note that RNG aside, you'll still have put more time and effort into getting your finished relic than it would to take you to clear the higher weapon equivalent in end-game raiding. The relic, always behind in stats, will eventually be the hardest to obtain (even as they make paths to getting it more simple). Why would someone do their relic line when they can get an EX weapon that is better and takes a few attempts to get once the strat is out there?

Uhm, no. No no. There is no skill or coordination required in obtaining the Zodiac weapons. The result should display that.

I'm ALL for this. The "No will Raid excuse is B@ll. Not everyone Raids, wants to raid or cares about raiding. Everyone should have a way to get top tier weapons. Not just raiders. With required item levels going up, being able to get a higher tier weapon may become a must for EVERYONE. To think other wise is just "sour grapes".

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

snip

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If you don't raid, then why the heck do you want the most powerful weapons? I never could make any sense of this. To be honest, raiders, SHOULD be the only ones able to obtain top tier items. If you're not going to put in the effort to clear instances that require you to press buttons, then you don't need the most powerful gear. Don't worry, I'll wait.

Funny thing is, OP actually found a perfect compromise to both raiders and non-raiders, the idea itself is so smart that a finished relic through raid would be better for a long amount of times before the catch up casuals/midcores get to the same step.
But people are like reading the title OP and then replying, gotta go fast like Sanic! Reading is boring right, it would take at least 20 seconds :(
Reading is hard, nobody got time for it.

http://colsblog.com/wp-content/uploa.../07/notime.jpg

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

Uhm, no. No no. There is no skill or coordination required in obtaining the Zodiac weapons. The result should display that.

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Devil's Advocate here. At what point do you think effort overcomes skill? A skilled player can down new content in a couple of weeks, whereas the effort to finish the relic takes a lot longer than that. As it continues on, this effort will be doubled. However, raiding will always be the same and you'll just get a weapon in a couple of weeks. This is counting Coil, of course, not EX, where you can get a weapon easily within a week that beats out the relic line.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Casual is defined by the content you're doing, not by playtime.

If the game had a way to obtain a weapon comparable to the most recent relic stage in a quick way, well, THAT would be problem... ^^

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That is your definition.

The problem for me is not raid weapons being better, it is the tomestone weapons being better. Those require next to nothing and if they add it to WoD, there will be another easy way to eclipse the zodiac with much less effort. Sure there may be another upgrade to zodiac, but anyone who is even one step behind will now be beat by someone getting a drop in a casual raid. With all the grind it is very easy to fall a step behind.

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Originally Posted by Ardent_Dawn

Devil's Advocate here. At what point do you think effort overcomes skill? A skilled player can down new content in a couple of weeks, whereas the effort to finish the relic takes a lot longer than that. As it continues on, this effort will be doubled. However, raiding will always be the same and you'll just get a weapon in a couple of weeks. This is counting Coil, of course, not EX, where you can get a weapon easily within a week that beats out the relic line.

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You're basing your point around that people are skilled enough to clear those instances that quickly. Top statics =/= common. Also basing if one is lucky enough to have em drop. I have not seen a single damned High Allagan Staff in all of my clears. RNG is just as large as a factor as the Zodiac step.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

blahblahblah

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You are seriously insinuating that we need the strongest weapons in the game to tackle... primals? I'm hoping you're kidding. There are more than enough other options outside of your fallacious ilvl 80 example to deal with Shiva, which is the latest Extreme primal. I can't understand why you'd bring up ilvl 80 weapons; that literally has no place. You're telling me that you (basing off of your Main Class) need an item at similar base to that of the Dreadwyrm staff, to kill Shiva? You need an ilvl 135 tier weapon to kill shiva, that drops ilvl 110-115 weapons...? You do know that you can easily acquire the Laevateinn, then use that to farm for the Shiva rod, right? I mean, unless you're extremely fetid at the game, then sure, you might need a dreadwyrm staff to compete with other ilvl 110 weapon users but, seriously. (didn't call you bad at the game, using your warped example)

You're not making any progress in defending your point.

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Originally Posted by Umisame

Relics should be the best weapons you could use 100% the time, not just 2-3 months every 6 months.

I think that an easy solution would be to make possible to get items to upgrade relics in two ways. Playing endgame(coil or whatever) and/or grinding. So hardcore people can get their relic upgrade earlier than casual ppl. Grinding method should have week cap so its not possible to get relic upgrade on the firsts weeks of the patch.

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If this change is applied, I can just blow millions of Gil on runs, since Gil is a cinch to make, even as a casual, and get my Relic even faster than before! There, that is one reason NOT to implement this. Even though I'd do it in a heartbeat if they did. Why waste 2000 hours a year trying to keep up when you can just spend 2 hrs a night and little to no effort finding someone to carry me. /Endsarcasm

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Originally Posted by Ardent_Dawn

Devil's Advocate here. At what point do you think effort overcomes skill? A skilled player can down new content in a couple of weeks, whereas the effort to finish the relic takes a lot longer than that. As it continues on, this effort will be doubled. However, raiding will always be the same and you'll just get a weapon in a couple of weeks. This is counting Coil, of course, not EX, where you can get a weapon easily within a week that beats out the relic line.

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I am not sure I understand what position you are taking here. At first is seems as if you are going for skill, but towards the end you seem to favor effort.

Effort and skill are two different things. No matter how much effort you put forth, if you do not possess the necessary skill, your outcome will be nil.

The Zodiac weapons require NO skill to obtain, just endurance, and commitment to time sink which can be considered effort.

Atma collecting - commitment to time sink - many fates and RNG drops

Animus - endurance and commitment to time sink - Books, fates and more books...

Novus - same as above - lots of monies / SBing, repeated treasure hunts / hunts / duties for currency

Nexus - again same as above - Light farming requires no skill. Argue it as much as you want. At this stage, no skill is involed in getting lights, when it takes 3 mins to burn an ex primal / 5 or less for T4. Skill did not make that happen. Overgearing and zerging did.

Zodiac Braves - yet again, same as above - RNG reliant time sink, monies, and I SUPPOSE...the only skill needed here is DESYNTH and CRAFTING...

End game raids require you to be SKILLED. Without the skill to understand, adapt and overcome obsticals and mechanics, you get no reward. The reward for being skilled is the loot that is dropped, and is most times, best or better than most.

Personally I think that the relic line is in a good place. It doesn't need to be THE best, it is most times, second best depending on patch and content.

I know that those that have spent the time raising their Zodiac weapon do not want that time negated or devalued in any way, because yes; you have spent a lot of time on it. For that you have a really nice weapon.
Those that have their raid weapons, don't want the time they put into obtaining it to be negated either. For your skill and time you get the raid rewards.

I do not have either and could care less either way, I am just happy to have a weapon that will slightly keep up with the rest. That is my choice though. The amount of time it takes to raise the currency to obtain a token weapon is three weeks and a tome is required that some cannot get due to them not raiding. SO there is at least three months of them not having the weapon. Then there is the addition of the tome to "softer" content, let's add another week. SO four weeks to get the token weapon, when all who do Zodiac and raiding have had all that time to have the best and second best weapon. I guess I am just tired of hearing to banter between both.

tl;dr: You choose to raid, you choose to grow a relic, you choose to not. You get the best for what you choose to do. The End

My point is "The relic weapons have always been billed has a number 1 weapon choose for non-raiders." Without the relice weapon quest updates/upgrades, how would any non raiders clear anything in the game? You still need to meet item level, you cant do that with level 49 weapons. My skill or others skill level has nothing to do with this. I think raiders just can't deal with non-raiders having ANYTHING of value. Let's be real here,your'e not going to beat very much in this game now with lower tier items. So, forget about Shiva Ex (DPS check) Odin (DPS check). "Owner of 2 Zodiac weapons and then light farming of another." Players who choice to do the relic quests upgrade earn their way, stop trying to devalue their time and efforts. There's a place of both relics and Coil weapons in this game.

I have finished Zodiac weapon in one week, I wasn't even able to finish turn 10 in one week. Are you telling me that Zodiac weapon should be exactly on par with turn 13 weapon which actually requires you to do turn 13 a couple of times to have even chance to get it? Where is logic in that?
Getting relic is much much easier... well, getting relic isn't a matter of difficulty.. just time. I really don't think that relic being number 2 or 3 weapon is that a big deal. Relic is still viable and will always be viable as the quest continues. I always raided with my relic and I never had problems. Better weapon isn't crucial..

I just think that this is another cry of the part of community who want to have everything. If you never craft, you won't get access to some items (untradable only for crafters), if you don't raid you won't get access to some items.. that is how it goes.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

That is your definition.

The problem for me is not raid weapons being better, it is the tomestone weapons being better. Those require next to nothing and if they add it to WoD, there will be another easy way to eclipse the zodiac with much less effort. Sure there may be another upgrade to zodiac, but anyone who is even one step behind will now be beat by someone getting a drop in a casual raid. With all the grind it is very easy to fall a step behind.

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Next to nothing?! You serious?? You have to beat T11 to get one of those, there is currently no other way to get them. IF you got one it is now easier to upgrade to 130 through hunts, that is correct, but still no T11 kill = no tome and by the time they get easier to obtain, relic will be bumped to be the best weapon in the game.

Next time people will ask for dreadwrym items to be obtainable other ways so they can have BiS without stepping into coil. :o

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

For once that someone is making an useful thread with a very smart idea, you guys should cheer him up a bit.
It kill me inside to see people complaining without solid arguments by just tossing the regular stereotypes like "lol-nope, would never work", "too hard for new players!", "raiders=greedy and casuals=lazy".

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They already did it so it is on par on ilvl, better (in most cases) with secondaries. New coil with ilvl 135 weapon, present relic ilvl 115 raid progress weapons 120 and upgraded 130. Month later quest added to make relic 125 which are better (unless you put pointless materia in eg parry on DRGs, SKS on caster relics) it is better than most of the upgraded 130 weapons due to seondaries.

Then with 2.51 and new relic quest the relic will match FCoB weapon in ilvl and supersede it in secondaries.

Most "hardcore" raiders replaced the SCoB HA weapon with the 115 relic because it was better when 2.4 and FCoB was released.

People want things just handed to them, don't they?

The relic takes no skill to get. Sorry to burst your bubble, but having the zodiac says nothing about what kind of player you are...except you have a lot of time to play.

And that's all you need for the relic; time. I have my Ragnarok, and it is great for helping me progress through fcob, but all I did to get it was grins the same easy things over and over. Anyone can get their relic, not anyone can get the Dreadwyrm

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

My point is "The relic weaposn have always been billed has a number 1 weapon choose for non-raiders. Without the relice weapon quest updates/upgrades, how would any non raider clear anything in the game? You still need to meet item level, you cant do that with level 49 weapons. My skill or others skill level has nothing to do with this. I think raiders just can't deal with non-raiders having ANYTHING of value. Let's be real here,your'e not going to beat very much in this game now with lower tier items. So, forget about Shiva Ex (DPS check) Odin (DPS check). "Owner of 2 Zodiac weapons and then light farming of another." Players who choice to the relice quest upgrade earn their way, stop trying to devalue their time and efforts.

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You devalue the step ladder this game gives you besides a relic and coil weapon. You are provided countless options and they can all be used consistently to progress through the content.

Shiva EX, Odin DPS checks?

You can beat Shiva EX in 110 weapons. Obtained from combination of Hunts and Syrcus Tower (rather easily). Using your new Shiva EX weapon, you can down Odins DPS check, which assuming you are not outright terrible, you truly just need to DPS decently and go full throttle on buffs when hes charging Zantetsuken. It's all step ladder. Don't wanna go that route? Meld out those weapons that are constantly added.

Also contrary to what you claim, it is skill that determines what you can do in this game, considering all content has been downed in LESS geared scenarios then what the content actually is aimed at ilvl wise. (EX: T5 in ilvl 55, T9 in ilvl 90, T13 in ilvl110.)

Shiva could be downed in i95 if people knew how to play correctly and unless you're not playing the game at all, you will be over that simply from soldiery or poetics. Let's not ignore they gave you weapons via token system like the first 3 primal set i90 weapons. Gear just remedies the lack of skill by giving you direct power. Ilvl is also a superficial barrier that guards Duty Finder. You're freely able to switch gear mid instance or even obtain ilvl minimums by switching in gear from other classes right side for higher ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Synestr

End game raids require you to be SKILLED. Without the skill to understand, adapt and overcome obsticals and mechanics, you get no reward. The reward for being skilled is the loot that is dropped, and is most times, best or better than most.

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This is not necessarily so given that runs can be bought. While it would cause the people carrying the one person through to be skilled, it would not necessarily cause the person be carried to be so. And yet, this player still has the rewards for doing something that you describe as skill based.

You can already clear the current end-game with the relics as they are. Why do you need for them to be 'the best'?

The only players who could make full use of 'the best' weapons are the ones who are already clearing said end game content anyways.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

It kill me inside to see people complaining without solid arguments by just tossing the regular stereotypes like "lol-nope, would never work", "too hard for new players!", "raiders=greedy and casuals=lazy".

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Not once prior to your nonsensical ramblings did any of those "regular stereotypes" surface, furthermore the majority of the posts were well written and had valid points for both sides of the argument.

As a side note to the thread in general I agree that relics should be the best weapons in the game, however I don't think they should be tied behind raids. Relics should have their own content with difficulty on par with the current raid content but something more along the lines of a group of trials at the end of the grind. For example farm the lights then have to beat Hydra Extreme.