WHM - Cure III vs. Medica

I PvP mostly but I am starting to learn and become more interested in Primals and dungeons. Sorry for anyone grouped up with me against Titan HM this weekend, haha.

As far as group heals go, I thought Cure III over Medica would be a given (higher potency). But I read that most people rely on Medica to cover group burst healing. What am I missing here? Is it a mana cost issue? What situations do you use one over the other?

Cure III has incredibly short range. If you have a group of melees on a decent sized target (say Shiva), if you stand beside the melees who are on the rear, and use Cure III, you won't be able to clip the tank with Cure III. You actually need to be inside the monster model to clip all the melee and tanks with Cure III, usually.

This is in contrast to Medica which has a 15y range, which can pretty much hit the entire arena when standing in the middle of a normal primal arena.

Pick the right cure for the situation. :) Medica should be your go to button, but Cure III in the right scenarios is the best, and being able to recognize those scenarios on the fly leads to great usage of the spell.

Another main difference between the two is where they are cast. For example Medica 1 & 2 always emanate from your character. Even if you have some one else targeted, it always spreads out from your character in a giant circle. However, Cure 3 can be cast on some one instead, and will emanate around that person in a very small range as was described by Ghishlain. Typically you can cast it on melee dps and it will hit each of them (but depends how far spread they are from each other). However it will not effect you, or anyone else that isn't in very close proximity with the target of Cure 3.

Cure 3 is more situational in a sense, but extremely useful. Its really good to use on a stacked group (think teams in T5, T6, as mentioned above melee). You can target one person and the cure 3 hits everyone arounds them (but not a very long range). Medica has a wider range and isn't cast on a specific person.

Cure 3 a more potent cure for stacked instances i.e T6,T8,T9 Spit,In General,Flare all respectively as a healer I've played T10-T13 as both SCH and WHM.

Everyone here has the right concept though I like to use Cure III sometimes from a distance when I'm not necessarily taking damage but the melee/tanks are ...just my preference spamming a medica at that point would be unnecessary while strategically a cure III works better

Most of the time if I use Cure III it's because i either have an overcure proc or the party happens to be stacked for big incoming damage (like others have mentioned). Usually the prior comes in the form of healing a speedrun when there's a melee dps involved. If dps is at a level where I'm chain-casting cures after my 3 holy stuns, i generally end up getting 1 or two overcure procs that i can use to heal both the tank and the melee dps in the middle of everything. It has other situational uses though, most of which i've found in final coil (healing up the wild charge group in T10, healing both tanks at once after a double resonance in T11, similarly during brand's/bennus/etc... in T12). Even in those situations tho, i'm generally hesitant to use it without a proc because of it's massive mp cost. Unless i know there are going to be consecutive damage spikes incoming or i need big potency to deal with after-damage effects (like healing wildcharge targets enough that they can comfortably survive the ground dot on T10 as they get back into position), i usually just use a med II.

General WHM AoE heal priority:

- Your SCH's fairy healing people up is best if you can get away with it. It's free, take advantage of it if you know a boss's pattern.
- M2 is the all around best tool if you can use it and most of the ticks will happen before the party will take much damage (after most forced raid damages it's safe to M2 rather than C3/M1). Sometimes there will be adds that spawn while it's ticking but generally any competent tank will out-aggro HoT ticks in their first GCD.
- M1 is if you need a general party heal in a semi-timely manner, usually within 5s of incoming raid damage and multiple people who aren't stacked need HP, often while M2 is already up. Not very strong or MP efficient, often times Medica isn't even worth using unless people messed up or there's chain raid damage pounding at the group - I'd say when I see poor MP management or wasted GCDs, inappropriate Medica use is one of the biggest offenders.
- C3 is for when there's heavy raid damage incoming, or heavy raid damage just came out and there's more on the way within 15s or so (otherwise M2 + Succor + fairy is enough). Mostly meant for the entire party (or the whole party minus main tank) as a heal bomb, much less commonly used as an actual ranged heal specifically meant for a cluster of members, though it used to be pretty good in Ifrit Extreme Mode for this purpose.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

I PvP mostly but I am starting to learn and become more interested in Primals and dungeons. Sorry for anyone grouped up with me against Titan HM this weekend, haha.

As far as group heals go, I thought Cure III over Medica would be a given (higher potency). But I read that most people rely on Medica to cover group burst healing. What am I missing here? Is it a mana cost issue? What situations do you use one over the other?

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I will give an example using Titan EX, since I use Cure III, M2, and plain old medica all in that fight.

When titan jumps and the party stacks on the edge, I use Cure III.

For stomps, I start precasting medica II (It's a slow spell...) so it lands right as the first stomp hits. Then I use medica I... usually twice but as needed during the stomps. This has the benefit of keeping lower geared (= lower HP) party members, or those with res weakness, alive through the stomps. And as an added bonus it hits the tank too.

Cure III is also, given its potency and AoE, a massive massive hate generator if there's overhealing.

As others have said... pretty much, use as appropriate for the situation. All tools have their niche.

edit: Also, while medica II is a great spell, be careful with it. You've got a regen ticking on up to 8 people and if adds spawn, the tank isn't all that well geared, or if the boss has teleported out for a phase or something...

Using Cure III whether party is stacked or not isn't as black and white like that. While having the party stacked does allow you to hit everyone with Cure III, it may or may not lead to a lot of overhealing. If Medica can top everyone off from an AoE hit, party stacked or not, you're better off using Medica over Cure III. Enmity generation aside, it's 133 MP difference between Medica and Cure III. Rather than looking when you can use Cure III, you should look for opportunities where you should use Cure III.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Using Cure III whether party is stacked or not isn't as black and white like that. While having the party stacked does allow you to hit everyone with Cure III, it may or may not lead to a lot of overhealing. If Medica can top everyone off from an AoE hit, party stacked or not, you're better off using Medica over Cure III. Enmity generation aside, it's 133 MP difference between Medica and Cure III. Rather than looking when you can use Cure III, you should look for opportunities where you should use Cure III.

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Also, this ^

I use Cure 3 when A) everyone is close enough and B) their HP is really low.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I use Cure 3 when A) everyone is close enough and B) their HP is really low.

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This.

Don't forget each AOE spell has different healing values. (Medica 1 ~ 1050 / Cure 3 ~ 2050 / Medica 2 ~ 2550 at ilvl124)

If the damages are very less than what provides a Cure 3, you should not Cure 3 just because ppl are stacked. In few situations though, it can be an important factor, as much as if it's a proc. But in most of the cases, stacked or not you will Medica 1 for less damages, Medica 2 for more damages. Also if less than 5 ppl got hit and you are NOT forced to top them fast, you should NOT AOE heal them, no Cure 3, no Medica, just some Cure 1/Regen and there is another healer so you can easily share the tasks and heal 2 persons while he's taking care of the 2 others.

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Originally Posted by Kelya

Don't forget each AOE spell has different healing values. (Medica 1 ~ 1050 / Cure 3 ~ 2050 / Medica 2 ~ 2550 at ilvl124)

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Please don't explain values like that. Medica 1 from a level 10 heals different from a level 50 while they have the same potency value. There's also the thing about initial healing as well as over time healing. I know what you mean, though. But it doesn't help those who come to the forum for information.
Medica 300 potency
Medica II 200 potency with 500 potency over a period of 30 seconds
Cure III 550 potency

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg:

I've never even used Cure III (SCH main) and I laughed at this.

Sorry, I know that's mean but come on.

Normal Medica II just for the group hot then spot heal

There have only been two times I have ever felt that Cure III was useful:

-In T5, to heal the soak party (you'll understand when you get there; you can't stand next to them)

-Shiva EX, when she freezes the arena (you can't move when she does)

Both times, the effectiveness is purely from a range standpoint. Otherwise, it's simply more consistent and reliable to use your Medicas and Cure I/IIs.

My instances of Cure III are, off the top of my head...

Garuda Hard: I personally off-tank both Chirada and Suprana, and since I'm outside Medica range, Cure III on a melee dps or tank becomes a good way to help them out.
Titan Extreme: With how often you have to cluster up after big bursts and Tumults, self explanatory.
Ifrit Extreme: While separated from the group, it's perfect for healing the dps cluster if an eruption clips them even once, or during nail pops.
Turn 10: Necessary after a phase change if the boss has nine stacks or more--Medica II will unlikely regen enough over time to safely handle the Heat Lightning and mechanics after that point.
Turn 11: Nerve Cloud and if groups really mess up their tether-nerve gas movements. Our tanks stay in Cure III range, so if Cure II procs an Overcure, no regrets using it.

Hmmm so no one uses Cure III on double towers in T13 , damn my WHM is over healing

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

Hmmm so no one uses Cure III on double towers in T13 , damn my WHM is over healing

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Generally any form of Succor/Medica/Medica II will let everyone survive Megaflare > tower hit. My group usually waits a little after tower explodes for everyone to group up before C3 if it's needed.

In final phase where there can be legit two towers in one spot, I have survived Megaflare hit > two towers with Succor before and M2/Succor after. I'm i130 though, and it was close.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Cure III is also, given its potency and AoE, a massive massive hate generator if there's overhealing (Overhealing generates twice the enmity)

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This stood out to me. Obviously over healing contributes to your enmity, however I have never heard of a modifier for that healed value.
Do you have a source or any conclusive evidence indicating your enmity in fact doubles on overhealing?

Overhealing generates the same amount of enmity as normal healing (0.5 x healing value).

Whoever set the "if everybody's stacked = Cure III" guideline is absolutely wrong.
The guideline should be "if everybody's stacked + (additional raid damage is coming soon OR by some miracle you actually have Overcure proc active) = Cure III" otherwise you Medica or Medica II.

P/S : Cure III should also be used if you're so far from the group that Medica II is out of range and you are forced to stay away from the group due to certain mechanics (Bonus points for figuring out what is the ONE fight that fits the above description).

Slightly off topic for a question of my own, anybody else that completely ignore the use of Medica in favor of Medica II in a raid environment? (AKA with tanks that are worth their salt AKA able to grab add aggro even with Medica II's regen ticking).

I find that for an additional 80 MP (IIRC), Medica II is so much more worth it, even if Medica is sufficient to top everybody up, please remember there's still one member who is constantly taking damage - the Main Tank, with Medica II + Regen ticking, I'll hazard guess that you'll actually save mana by requiring less Cures during this time frame.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

[A]nybody else that completely ignore the use of Medica in favor of Medica II in a raid environment? (AKA with tanks that are worth their salt AKA able to grab add aggro even with Medica II's regen ticking).

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Yes. Especially fights where damage is like this:
Tank -> tank -> tank -> tank -> raid -> tank -> tank -> tank -> tank... etc.

No real reason to use Medica unless there is follow-up damage soon or you're prepping against someone taking a mechanic/avoidable damage to the face. (This excludes situations where Medica > Medica II I.E. Titan HM)

As for Medica vs. Medica II vs. Cure III, there are so many different scenarios in which you'd use one over the other. Often I find myself using Cure III during mechanics that require people to stack to divide damage and/or multiple people who are clumped together all need Cure IIIs ASAP.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Slightly off topic for a question of my own, anybody else that completely ignore the use of Medica in favor of Medica II in a raid environment? (AKA with tanks that are worth their salt AKA able to grab add aggro even with Medica II's regen ticking).

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Medica II is like my go to spell in raids. Especially when there's a lot of AoE/Raid damage. In ST I can generally throw out a Medica II and continue to DPS even after a raid wide AoE comes out because of the regen. I'm also obsessed with using Divine Seal before casting it. I love it during all the bosses in ST because you never know who is gong to take damage from all the AoEs flying around as well. It's just, in my opinion, the best spell a WHM has in raids.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Whoever set the "if everybody's stacked = Cure III" guideline is absolutely wrong.
The guideline should be "if everybody's stacked + (additional raid damage is coming soon OR by some miracle you actually have Overcure proc active) = Cure III" otherwise you Medica or Medica II.

I find that for an additional 80 MP (IIRC), Medica II is so much more worth it, even if Medica is sufficient to top everybody up, please remember there's still one member who is constantly taking damage - the Main Tank, with Medica II + Regen ticking, I'll hazard guess that you'll actually save mana by requiring less Cures during this time frame.

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Saving mana versus over curing is a hard line to walk.I don't agree that medica II with the overhealing if the initial strike is fine. I only medica II IF and only IF the ticks will get a benefit or if it's for a hate mechanic (white mage pulling blue golem in t9). Overhealing is a big deal that you have to watch out for, use a medica I where it's proper, use a medica II where it's proper. If people are stacked, about to take massive damage (2 hr on primals) cure II can be far more mp efficient, because one heal can do the work of two or three. It's all using the right tool for the right job, you don't got hitting a fly with a rocket launcher, you use a fly swatter.
I also argue that a tank should not be tested on their worth because you as a healer decide to cure bomb in a way that is meant to pull hate. It's all about using the right tool for the job, if one cure III heals everyone up to full without over curing, or worrying about having the proc, use that. If you are taking sustained damage over time, or will be, use medica 2, if you take a large chunk of raid wide damage that can be healed with a single medica 1? use medica 1.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

This stood out to me. Obviously over healing contributes to your enmity, however I have never heard of a modifier for that healed value.
Do you have a source or any conclusive evidence indicating your enmity in fact doubles on overhealing?

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Originally a bit of info I got from a raid leader which I didn't question. Since it seems this is incorrect, I've edited my post to remove that part. But, all the same, WHMs can easily race tanks for enmity-- watch that overhealing!

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

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Ifrit EX is usually the only time I use a remote casted Cure III, yep.

I can't really agree with this post. While I do love HoTs and have had party members comment "Regen all the things!" when I'm in the party... There are definitely times when Cure III is appropriate and more efficient than Medica or Medica II. T9 after megaflare (pre nerf, not sure how it is now), though you'd want M2 ticking for that as well. Titan EX's jump when ilvls weren't so high (might still be, haven't done TEX for a while). As for M2 vs Medica... again, HoTs are really awesome, but medica does have the higher potency direct heal for less MP. If M2's already ticking and you need a direct area heal, but cure III is too short ranged or too strong, there's a good case for Medica.

Of course, if everyone's only a 300 hp below max and medica II is ticking, that's not one of those cases. 3000 might be, though.

Medica 2 actually heals more than Cure 3 in total (initial heal + the ticks). Each time you're looking for the heal with the highest value to use, it should be Medica 2 and not Cure 3, unless you can't afford waiting 30s to top ppl. If the damages are very inferior to Medica 2 but still superior to Medica, you will be overhealing for the last ticks but it's still efficient on the MP side (better than Medica x 2 and better than Cure 3), not to add ppl are spread most of the time.

When you're in the situation where you can choose between Medica 2 and Cure 3 (ppl are stacked), the question is more about : do you want to save some MP while overhealing more or not ? This is dependent from the damages values, the mechanics of the fight (next raid attack in less than 30s or not) and what notion of MP management / overhealing every healers have.

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Originally Posted by Kelya

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Well, yeah. If time wasn't an issue we could all use nothing but regen and M2, aside from their great total potency they have the best efficiency.

I'm slightly confused by a few posters above,

You guys do realize Cure III offers less potency and higher MP cost compared to Medica II right?
Why are some of you saying Cure III is more MP efficient that Medica II? The only reason Cure III should be used is if additional raid damage is coming (AKA only in FCOB and maybe SSCOB) after the initial hit.

Regarding the "please don't test your tank's worth comment", it doesn't really matter if Medica II is ticking or not, if the OT is slacking, the healer WILL get the aggro, in FCOB, you can't really twiddle your thumbs for a few seconds and wait for the OT to establish add aggro (hint : the damage on MT is massive), so regardless of Medica II ticks + MT healing aggro generation, or just MT healing generation, the OT must be good enough to establish snap aggro.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Why are some of you saying Cure III is more MP efficient that Medica II?

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I think the point is.... HoTs are most MP efficient, but waiting for them to tick up people from low health usually isn't something we can do? Cure III is reasonably MP efficient and very time efficient at getting an 8-person raid back up from low health. And... correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it is more MP efficient than medica I..? Or, if we have 2 GCDs to spare, is 2x Medica better than Cure III?

I apply two basic rules of thumb when it comes to AoE healing:

In the situation where there is an AoE that hits the group...

Is there any more incoming damage to the raid in the next 5-10 seconds?
- Yes: Better Cure 3 (T13 Megaflares > Rage of Bahamut)
- Nope: Just Medica II and let the regen do it's job (T13 Megaflare > Flatten/Flame Breath x3)

In the PvP Scenario, I can't think of a reason to use Cure 3 at all aside from remote healing two melee getting their face beat in.
- Your group shouldn't be stacked together, that's just asking a trigger happy BLM to double flare your group while the WHM stuns you to oblivion.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And... correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it is more MP efficient than medica I..? Or, if we have 2 GCDs to spare, is 2x Medica better than Cure III?

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It totally is, depending on the situation!

Just to be simple, assuming your Medica effectively heals all 8 targets in your group, Cure III will be more MP efficient, as long as you're effectively healing 6 targets with it. But even then, barely. Cure III at 6 targets is 6.53 Potency per MP spent, Medica at 8 targets is 6.45 Potency per MP spent. Not to mention, there's always things like Overcure procs, your own current position, incoming damage etc. to consider. I personally think Lyrica Ashtine put it best earlier in the thread:

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Rather than looking when you can use Cure III, you should look for opportunities where you should use Cure III.

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