Learning Post - Tank AoE Rotation (Paladin & Warrior)

Hello everyone,

I recently returned back to FFXIV and started to work on my Paladin, I geared him with full Soldiery Gear at this moment and got my first chest piece of Poetic, he is currently iLv111.

Now, I have been running Snowcloak a lot to farm Tomes, in attempt to finish my Zodiac Weapon Quest.
I admit, most of the time (95%) I do not have threat issue, the other 5% is when healer or DPS come in with iLvl 130/135 Weapon and geared out in 120/130 armor/accessories, that's when I notice my threat meter is on the edge of losing it.
But I was able to manage.

Here are my concerns that tied to the title of this post. Again, I'm a tank that is in the progress of learning.
From Single Target perspective, I don't have a problem.

What I concerned the most right now is not Coil or Single Target, it's how to manage AoE rotation and when to pop cool downs. All these are 4-man Dungeon based cases, where large pull are fairly common, especially Snowcloak.
Below I will give a quick introduction of my class and how I rotate my skills and pop cool downs.

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My main tank - Paladin
Work in Progress Tank - Warrior

I will provide my rotation of Paladin AoE and how to maintain threat, please let me know how to improve my rotation and manage CDs.

Threat Rotation:
Fight or Flight (if off CD) -> Shield Lob -> *close gap/pulling* -> Shield Lob (next group of mobs and so on until the last group) -> Flash (try to center myself, so it covers all mobs) -> CoS -> Flash (2nd time) -> SW (try to hit target with lowest HP)
-> Flash (3rd time) -> Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Flash (4th time) -> repeat Riot Combo and Flash, mix in CoS and SW when it's off CD (depends on the DPS and how much HP the left over enemies have left)

Popping CD (Defense Utilities)
I usually go with lowest CD first, but perhaps I should start off with higher CD skills first (thought on this?)
I don't overlap each CD skills, unless they could work well together, like mix Rampart with Convalescence (I only mix when I think I might be in trouble or healer has weaker gear.) Other than that I pop CD when one wears off.
1. Rampart -> Foresight -> Sentinel (again, mix skills up with others if needed)

Here are my questions - What's the most efficient way to cast CD? and When? Should I cast them one after another? (Reminder-My concern is purely 4-Man Dungeon based during large pull)

I think above are my concerns to my Paladin.
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As for Warrior -
Since I'm still leveling him, we can just go quick with this one, what would be a good end game Dungeon AoE rotation be? Any TP problems?

Thank You!

war wont have any tp problems unless you use overpower too much, or the fight is very long
pacify from bersek, flash, and all of your infuriate skills help you conserve tp

One suggestion I'll make is to use Flash instead of Shield Lob for the initial agro of some mob groups. It depends on how close they are initially positioned.

What you DO NOT WANT is a group of mobs (2-3) agroed by Shield Lob. Shield Lob means you (for 1 GCD at least) have X agro on one and zero on the rest -- any heal during that time means you've lost agro to healer. And allowing heals to start fast is good as any cooldown.

Let's use that initial part of Snowcloak as an example, up to 1st boss: First part is 2x Ibex, 1x Goobue, 2x Spriggans, 5x Wolves (grouped as 2x and 3x). The first 5 are widely scattered, so you Shield Lob each of them individually -- don't skip any. Then the wolves are close together, so you run mid of the 2 wolves, Flash, mid of 3 wolves, Flash, then stop and kill. Could be 5 and 5 kills, or pull all 10 at once if your group is up for it.

After the above you have a solo bear, then 3x mobs, then first boss. You don't need cooldowns for any of that, so use them all during the first part and they'll be back once you finish boss.

I don't like to hit cooldowns until I'm about to stop and group them for killing. That means the initial seconds are the worst -- so biggest cooldown first. I'm usually WAR, so what's that for PLD? Sentinel I guess, followed quickly by Foresight and Convalesence let's say. Sentinel won't last the whole time, but it covers where you're weakest and then the other stuff let's you cruise to finish. Rampart and Bulwark could be for 2nd set of 5, or if you're pulling all 10 at once then mash those ASAP too. If mashing all at once, I guess you'd have to start one or 2 just before you stop running -- otherwise they won't kick in fast enough.

For Warrior it's still pretty similar. I still Flash while gathering, then Overpower after all together. You pretty much spam Overpower until they die or out of TP. Mix in a bit of Unchained, Berserk, Maim sometimes, Steel Cyclone, Bloodbath.. But the most is Overpower.

TP can run out on WAR, but it's not bad. The flash while gathering conserves some TP, most trash dies around the time you run out from spamming Overpower, and if you do run out you can Steel Cyclone, Flash, or combo to fill the gap.

Thanks guys!
Great tips.

@RhazeCain
So what you are suggesting is to Shield Lob all wolves so I have threat on them?
My common experience (regardless Low or High or Expert dungeon) is that most DPS will not wait for me to gain threat on every mobs with Shield Lob, as soon as I stop moving, they will nuke away.

What I mean by above statement is that... with GCD, after first Shield Lob my only option is to keep running forward and shield lob the the next mob, which in my case I always target the Goobue, then keep moving forward, and Shield Lob one of the Spriggan. This keep moving approach ensures that my DPS don't start nuking right away, a silent way of telling them that I'm still gathering mobs. However, this approach + GCD only allow to Shield Lob limited mobs, I do mix in Flash as I run past some of the mobs (it really depends on the position of the patrolling mobs), but what I'm trying to say is... Shield Lob every mobs may be difficult to achieve (Perhaps I haven't figure out the correct way to do so.) Anyway, after I have gather up all the mobs (exclude the wolves)I will go ahead and Flash -> CoS -> Flash -> Flash (at this point, I should be close to Half MP) -> Riot Blade Combo.

With above method, I think DPS usually follow me, since I kept on moving lol. Haven't experiencing the healer pulling mob off me with above approach yet. Perhaps he/she wasn't healing at that time, which worked for me.

Overall, I really do appreciate your replies! Just want to share my experience in some of the encounters with mobs and players. This is extremely helpful, it helps to see how other players handle each tank and their experience with it.
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As for Warrior, in large pulls, keep spamming OP until out of TP and mix up with other skills to conserve TP. Would that approach work in all pulls? What if some mobs are not that far away, but just not part of the large pull, do Warriors usually have downtime to recover TP?

Thank You!

well if you have a sizable lead in aggro, you don't need to keep smacking everything until it's all dead. you can use that time to recover tp

what he means by shield lob all is as your running you select your next target and shield lob it then next and so on, that first pack is spaced just enough to allow this perfectly in snowcloak.

personally I do that snowcloak pull a little dif, as once I have them all together I swing back through them flash then hit hallowed ground, flash through its duration since I don't have to dodge anything then move using sentinel and convalescence, by this time everything is pretty much dead and so shouldn't need any further cool downs. allowing me to use some on next boss which btw has enough time that you can cycle through them and they will recharge in time for next set of pulls.


in your gear you shouldn't have any issues holding to aoe even with better geared people, chances are your flashes may be missing a few enemies if the pack is a little spread out, your rotation seems solid enough, you could flash a few more times before starting mp regen or hate combo to give yourself a bigger margin if your feeling its a little to close but as stated above in another post hitting each enemy on the way with a lob or flash will help you a lot in keeping that agro.

ultimately so long as they don't get away and they die in time it doesn't matter where others are in comparison to your hate. so long as you were no1 the whole time

I'd recommend going as dps to watch other tanks at work if you can. yes you'll see bad ones but you should see the good ones too, both of which will teach you things from observation alone. also a lot of it comes from just knowing each dungeon and knowing how you want to do things, dps and healers will fall inline with your pulls, once your really familiar with any dungeon you run you can mix it up push yourself and the others to keep up. all part of the fun of tanking

Thanks All!

With my Paladin last night, I did try to Sheild Lob as many as I can and flash in between my gap closing to the next mob. It helped a lot.
Needlessly to say, some of the range mobs still a bit tricky to deal with, but I think that just a positioning issue, something I need to learn or get used to throughout the runs.

Another warrior's question, thinking about taking him ot Level 50 by the end of this long weekend.
What should be a good opening rotation for Warrior in a 4-man dungeon for a large pull? Any DPS buff(Cool Downs like Fight or Flight) that I should be casting before tomhawk? The youtbe video seems to focus a lot on single target rotation and maximize the damage output while tanking. I'm more interested in AoE opening rotation in this case. Or the single target rotation can be applied in 4-man large pull?

Reference:
This is the video I mentioned, it's really good, he has a Paladin one as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkUuBQ7VPug

Thank You!

the way i used to do brayflox may not be optimal, but i thought it was pretty good, and im convinced its the best damage possible. i always tried to build wrath stacks to 5 by the time we aoed the big pull. so usually, i would flash the first couple groups of mobs, then the next half of the pull, id heavy swing, sunder, BB, then heavy, maim, storms eye on the next sets of mobs. (dont need eye, berserk and vengeance will get u to 5 stacks, but use eye if you can)


this would give me 5 stacks with maim up by the time i stacked everything for the group to aoe. from there id do bloodbath, IR just before the big pull gets to me, vengeance, then unchained, berserk (or berserk first if only at 4 stacks at this point), overpower, then infuriate, steel cyclone, overpower spam and work in more def cds as you go. id usually use bloodbath foresight and vengeance at first, then when they fell off, id use TOB, conva, and holmgang if i really needed to. should be dead quick though with all of your dps and if the other dps in your party is good.

oh, not sure how it works in new dungeons, but on brayflox, i used featherfoot a lot. it sucks in raids, but in dungeons, it was op for speed runs. when you have multiple enemies attacking you, thats a lot more chance to dodge. i would dodge at least 30% of the enemies hits, it was amazing. bloodbath is awesome for speed runs too, bc with berserk, maim, and unchained, you self heal A fuck ton. you gotta think, youre hitting like 12 enemies at the same time with a buffed overpower or steel cyclone, thats huge self healing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZkInPhamouZ

@RhazeCain
So what you are suggesting is to Shield Lob all wolves so I have threat on them?
My common experience (regardless Low or High or Expert dungeon) is that most DPS will not wait for me to gain threat on every mobs with Shield Lob, as soon as I stop moving, they will nuke away.

What I mean by above statement is that... with GCD, after first Shield Lob my only option is to keep running forward and shield lob the the next mob, which in my case I always target the Goobue, then keep moving forward, and Shield Lob one of the Spriggan.

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What you're describing is not what I was suggesting, no. It's all about how far apart they are spaced: First 5 in Snowcloak are farther apart, so Shield Lob. Next 5 (wolves) are in tight packs, so Flash.

At start you just run through using Tab key to change target after every Shield Lob. 2x Ibex, then Goobue, then 2x Spriggans. Some of those Shield Lob will actually go behind you -- might need to practice running and targeting a bit. Should not need to slow down or change path at all in order to hit all 5.

After that, the wolves are best gathered with Flash and not shield lob: 1st Flash the 2 wolves, then run through and Flash the next 3 wolves. (2 GCDs gets everything here)


For the question about Warrior damage buff, I like to buff Overpowers -- not Tomahawk. In a few very specialized raid situations I'd buff Tomahawk, but not dungeons that I can think of -- you just don't need it, and buffing overpower is a lot bigger damage increase.

Unchained, Berserk, Bloodbath, Vengeance work very well together in this kind of situation: Unchained should be used before Berserk. Bloodbath or Vengeance can be before or after, but overlapping the buff duration helps them synergize.

vengeance is great
not only is it a global damage resist, it also deals recoil damage
so it's absolutely great for large trash pulls and synergizes very well with bloodbath

There's a war question thread a couple threads down and part of it is mass pulls. So reposting what I did there cuz /lazy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

On mass pulls I tend to:
*use flash to grab mobs and Toma for any I missed so I have full tp for the good part.
*Infuriate as I get near the end of the pull.
*Vengeance when I stop to ease that initial ouch when they all catch up.
*1 OP to secure threat (each mob also has 1 flash or Toma from the pull).
*heavy> bloodbath(30 sec)> maim (24 sec)> unchain/zerk> OP> internal release> OPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOP.
*conva/ToB/foresight etc as needed depending on how it's going. If multiple pulls I'll vengeance 1 and tob+conva the other.

That's my general way. But the instants get shuffled around. Not the end of the world if you use bloodbath 2 sec later or whatever. If mobs are weak (hm dungeon or whatever) then I'll delay vengeance until unchain/zerk are up to buff the damage return for the full duration since I'm not as afraid for my life I'll make it more offensive.

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Paladin AoE threat rotation: Flash, CoS, flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, FB->RB, flash, FB->-RB, CoS, etc. You might think I'm joking, but more often then not that's ALL I ever need to hold threat on groups of enemies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PinnyAerani

Paladin AoE threat rotation: Flash, CoS, flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, FB->RB, flash, FB->-RB, CoS, etc. You might think I'm joking, but more often then not that's ALL I ever need to hold threat on groups of enemies.

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this works but you might end with no mp and next pull to do so you have to start building mp again towards end of enemies hp to keep the dungeon run smooth and not stalled by not being able to flash enough to hold proper hate on next pull.

you can start to shield bash the heck out of everything towards the end to save mp for next set of pulls as the tp isn't as important on the big pulls. try not to go dry though.

For AOE hate one thing that both paladins and warriors should keep in mind is the composition on their party and the maximum HP of the monsters they're fighting. For DPS classes, nearly 100% of their enmity comes from damage dealt. If you're in a party with two black mages that are doing equal damage and fighting monsters who have only 1,000 HP, the most enmity each black mage will generate from damage is 500. If you know your flashes generate 300 enmity, you'll only need two of them to hold hate for the entire life bar. On the other hand, if one of those black mages is doing 100% of the damage, you'll need four flashes. Overpower deals damage as well, essentially reducing the enmity ceiling for the DPS in your party.

OP, regarding defensive abilities, you should use the biggest ones first. More stuff is alive at the very start of the fight, so you have more incoming damage, and using something powerful like Hallowed Ground, Sentinel, or Vengeance early will help stabilize you until some of the weaker monsters die off and the healer gets comfortable. This also starts them recharging early so that you get more total uses of them in each dungeon. Of course, you have to use your best judgment - you shouldn't blow your entire wad unless you have a good 2+ minute boss fight area to recover in after doing so.

plus vengance has the recoil damage
which only gets more and more awesome the more things there are slapping you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PinnyAerani

Paladin AoE threat rotation: Flash, CoS, flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, FB->RB, flash, FB->-RB, CoS, etc. You might think I'm joking, but more often then not that's ALL I ever need to hold threat on groups of enemies.

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Its really this simple on trash mobs in 4 man dungeons. Some of you are overthinking it imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chidarake

this works but you might end with no mp and next pull to do so you have to start building mp again towards end of enemies hp to keep the dungeon run smooth and not stalled by not being able to flash enough to hold proper hate on next pull.

you can start to shield bash the heck out of everything towards the end to save mp for next set of pulls as the tp isn't as important on the big pulls. try not to go dry though.

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I never have this problem. Pay attention to hate bars and regain mp back accordingly. You can refil almost all the way after flashing half your mp away at start.