[dev1016] Discussion

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/276
Let's discuss.

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The patch will introduce new recipes designed with accessible synthesis in mind. Barring some exceptions, the new recipes will boast simplified steps and ingredients over existing ones.

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At first I was happy. It was strange for me, that for r10 recipe i need a r30 material. I tought that ranks of recipes will be systemized.

Yoshi, please don't simplify craft too much. For me it was interesting to create weapon from parts, not from ore, wood and string.
And please, leave customization of item color by using colored intermediary materials. Please!

Simplify the colouring is alright, but removing part and intermediary materials just killed it IMO. If they are going to abolish those, might as well give us Auto-Craft and Bulk-Crafting, I will be happily leave my char on overnight and hit cap because it seems like that is where the game going to...

Well, I don't realy against simlifying of coloring, but it was very interesting to create colored items from colored mats.

Perfect. Finally I'll be able to just produce my clothing without the necessity to spend days hoarding shiploads of intermediary materials, manuals, dyes and crafts. I can see that this may piss off a few dedicated craft(bott)ers, but at the current state of the game, and considering the low appeal of an overly complicated crafting system for newcomers, this was definitely the right thing to do.

Yoshis current direction is clear: make the game accessible for a larger audience. Even if it hurts (or even drives out) players who spent the better part of the past year sitting in a corner in the Uldah wards spamming standard synthesis.

I keep telling to myself: "WTF???"
Please SE don't do that, it's way too simplified, and demands much more work than a better (for me) synthesis system would need:

The realism of the game was for me the absolute first reason I came to the game, and keep playing it since alpha. Many things i like are already abandoned, or simplified: Auto-attack, No fatigue anymore, and now the synthesis? Needing different lacquers, dyes, enamels for the different materials is just awesome, including the fact that you have to gather some in so much places.

I mean, I agree with the difficulty encountered when crafting as explained in the [dev1016] post, but that's what interest me, the few things the system need are "needed Rank" adjustment for consecutive and intermediate materials and maybe the amount of what is created when you don't need 12 of that.

I swear, i'll be happy if every updates lead to a good game, but except the add of contents, the revisions of the different Combat and Crafting system do not please me (again, just talking for myself, maybe all players don't want a realist MMO, and would prefer an easy one, but come on, such games are all over the MMO market, and FFXIV was coming with so much new things that really interest people!) This is the game I like to play, and would like to continue to play.

I'm losing gradually what I loved at the first sight, and maybe if some other game come out with that "thing" that the game had at the beginning, i'll look into it.

I really hope it won't happen for me or other people, because that's a great game from many views.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Yoshis current direction is clear: make the game accessible for a larger audience. Even if it hurts (or even drives out) players who spent the better part of the past year sitting in a corner in the Uldah wards spamming standard synthesis.

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No disrespect, but i don't see how sitting in a corner (I hate botters too) have something to do with the complexity of the system, because what those people are obviously looking for is sp and money. I can't see how a simplified craft system could be better, in my opinion it will be even worse if the prerequisites are lower.

As for the policy of the producer and SE for expanding the player base, i'm not against it, but i'm not sure if looking a bit more like another average MMORPG would help, maybe i'm wrong. I myself can see how the specter could be wider and attract more people, but i'm not looking into the same thing when I look for a game, so I can only speak from my point of view.

I agree with all the changes. It will do more to bring some sense into the crafting process and prevent our inventories from exploding.

For me as a non-hardocre player the current crafting system WITH all the steps in between was the reason to start really looking into FFXIV again. I really like how you need to put your robe together form sleves, back, front etc... and it made the crafting way more interesting than in other games where you just hit enter and wait for the result.

For many of those who really enjoy the crafting in FFXIV (and I do not talk about them grinders, who just skill a job to have it at 50 and then never use it again), it will take away a good part from the game, and yet again make it "replaceable" by one of the other dozens MMOs out there.

The coloring and the levels for the crafts need a change, I totally agree on that. But removing sub-skills (they also existed in FFXI) and the component crafting will take away another good piece of the game.

Can I ask a question to you all? Why to create a R10 item do you have to have another sub crafting job R30 in order to create that part? Personally, I thought it a bit overkill. If it's a R10 item then as a R10 crafter you should be able to make it. I always thought if I reach this R as such and such crafter I would FINALLY be able to make my own stuff instead of buying it at inflated prices and I wouldn't have to rely on someone else to craft it. I like the sub job part but the differences in the R abilities TO craft it seemed weird. Maybe if it was explained as to why it HAD to be that way I would better unerstand why it upsets you all so much.

Wow. They weren't kidding when they said 1.19 would be a monster patch. Most of the stuff in there I don't mind either way. But the last things stand out to me:

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Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements
As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.

* Alternate uses are being considered for crafting facilities and treatises.

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This is VERY interesting. All those guildmarks spent on manuals. They need to do something, but the question is what and from what angle?

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Simplified Color Customization
Currently, players can customize the color of their item only by using colored intermediary materials. This process is rendered extremely complicated due to the fact that intermediary materials come in various hues, along with the existence of dedicated dyes for different types of material (lumber, cloth, metal, and leather).

The new recipes will allow players to color-customize items in a single step by using dyes. Furthermore, universal dyes will be introduced that can be used across all material types.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKUOB8MN4Kc

Everything is good to me, they just have to remember by the time they remove all the old recipes to remember that there are some quests that require special items. R36 weaver quest requires Raven-Black Velveteen cloth, so if they remove the recipe to dye it black directly, they are going to have to change the required item for that quest. There are other quests with in the same situation too.

Also, Since there will be no 'parts', and whatever else they decide to remove like 'decorations', they need to change some craft skills that are more effective to those particular items.

I wonder if these changes mean ffxiv will be the only one of many mmos i abandoned not due to eventual boredom, but a fatal patch..

Personally, I don't mind that much, I guess you could call me a non-hardcore player (maybe like 5-6hrs every other day?) but the changes seem wise, I understand that people don't want this game to become another average MMO, neither do I and I'm sure neither does Yoshi P, but when it comes down to it crafting is a pain, I don't want to spend my entire game time gathering all the materials for some rank 19 boots, I say hooray for these changes, and if people want difficult crafting save it for the higher ranks.

imo it's another step toward easy mode ff.

As a crafter, I'm very upset about ditching them treatises and sub skill requirements. As if guild points weren't already nearly useless (especially once you get all the treatises), now they're making them totally useless.

Secondly, as a xiv player in general IMO the developers are completely misguided and off the mark with their reasoning. "While there are numerous types of materials and parts in existence, low market demand has resulted in shortages for a large number of items"... NO. Being limited to 2 retainers with limited slots in a convoluted and broken market system is much more of a factor than demand.

Players have 2 retainers to sell finished crafts (btw, thanks for still not letting us distinguish between NQ, +1, +2, +3), misc loot / mining mats / botany mats/ fish, gear from leves, ect... I can't speak for every player, but I for one don't sell parts because there' s no room. Both my retainers are always kept fully stocked with finished items and loot. Heck i don't even have room to store parts, when i make something i make it from start to finish.

if devs actually read non jp comments, please note --> it's not a lack of demand, it's a lack of space and ability to find what you need! PLEASE fix the market system and don't nerf crafting

I think that getting rid of parts to make items is a step backwards if you ask me and aslo getting rid of needing a sub craft to do some crafts again it's a bad idea as it will lead to a kill to the market not make the market stock of items better as everyone will then be able to level just one craft and make eveything in that craft leading to more on the market at first but with so many people wanting gil the price for these items will drop drastically and so people will then say it not worth my time to make them anymore just to please all those that wanna craft an item but not bother with doing the sub class to make it, and making life easier for them even though they must be items that they can make still without a sub craft such as parts for examples. People need to learn to go out and do leves for crafting gain the recipes from them not go jumping ahead to higher items i have Rank 16 BSM and 16 GoldSmith and i have yet to be given a recipe requiring a sub Craft job I also have Weaver at Rank 10 i think it was when i last used it, i don't know if they is bot's about or not but won't taking away the Sub Craft Job also open it up more to people that do just use a bot system to flood the market at a huge reduced rate

It is my belief that the changes being introduced in 1.19 for the most part is NOT what we need for crafting. What we DO need is more visibility on our stats while crafting, similar to how enmity is displayed now. If we can get a meter for elemental destabilization as well as risk value, we can better judge how we would like to proceed, even if no further information is provided on how different actions would affect destabilization probability and risk values (which was ambiguous from release). As long as we can see this, we can perform proper risk management even if it's 10 ranks over with underleveled sub and none of the required training required, and if we fail, we wouldn't be nearly as frustrated since we understand that this synth is just isn't possible, just like fighting a mob 10+ rank over us is a crapshoot on luck if we want to succeed.

There are some parts I do like from it though, color change requirements being one of them. I really dislike hoarding 20 different dyes, enamels, and lacquer just because one of the synths for the BASE gear requires it. Stupied rassin' frassin' spiked bronze labrys...

Off topic kinda if they do make theses changes will they also change how damaged gear works such as after so many repairs of an item it breaks all toghether that would keep the sales of gear going

I agree with Jwang in that the basis of crafting needs to be looked at before adding any more layers to it. Having indicators for risk and destabilization are great, but what about having clarity or algorithms looked at for the rate of success and failure. It still seems so random. How is it that I can have a synth get up to 447 Quality and not get an hq item out of it? What about having a lightning element destabilize in a recipe that doesn't even use lightning crystals or shards? That's just random. There's no rhyme or reason behind it. Before moving on with any more changes, please fix the foundation because it seems unecessarily complicated. I don't mind any of the changes just so long as I can logically understand why I am failing a synth or succeeding with it.

Absolutely agree with Blue72! A large part of the problem with crafting is the lack of an auction house or mail or any kind of logical system for exchanging materials and products. I like that it takes time and effort to craft items and level crafting, but it looks as though FFXIV is going in the 'magic box' direction, like Rift and WoW. Take brass buttons and some spindles of hempen yarn (both of which are regurgitated by moles in a cave deep in Thanalan), throw them into the magic box, press a button, and viola! You've made a doublet. In one minute, you can make 10 doublets which you can then sell for a few gold on the auction hou....oh, wait.

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Originally Posted by Levi_Z

I agree with Jwang in that the basis of crafting needs to be looked at before adding any more layers to it. Having indicators for risk and destabilization are great, but what about having clarity or algorithms looked at for the rate of success and failure. It still seems so random. How is it that I can have a synth get up to 447 Quality and not get an hq item out of it? What about having a lightning element destabilize in a recipe that doesn't even use lightning crystals or shards? That's just random. There's no rhyme or reason behind it. Before moving on with any more changes, please fix the foundation because it seems unecessarily complicated. I don't mind any of the changes just so long as I can logically understand why I am failing a synth or succeeding with it.

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totally agree here, i certainly don't mind an element of probability but please tell us the rules... i don't know how many times i've tried to HQ something and got NQ at 400+ quality and then the next day HQ1 some random synth i'm grinding on (or making lumber/shards/ect) with 20 or 30 quality

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Originally Posted by Blue79

totally agree here, i certainly don't mind an element of probability but please tell us the rules... i don't know how many times i've tried to HQ something and got NQ at 400+ quality and then the next day HQ1 some random synth i'm grinding on (or making lumber/shards/ect) with 20 or 30 quality

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Huh, always thought it was rather simply to figure out:

Quality at the end does not simply give you HQ, it increases your chances of getting HQ.

I mean its not like youve ever gotten a random HQ+3 while doing some mass producing with end value no higher then 30 quality, right?

Often, increasing the chances does not increasing them to 100%~ degozaru

In part these changes are needed. Given the changes in the SP curves at low ranks, and the introduction of bonus SP from rank 1 to 24, people spend less time at the lower ranks. In turn, this means that the value of lower ranked gear is diminished (because it is used for less time). So, the recipe changes make perfect sense for ranks 1 to 30, in my opinion.

Additionally, the level of complexity in crafting FROM RANK 1 is probably too high. Most games work on a progression system that starts off simple, and slowly adds complexity, along with the mechanisms for the player to learn how to utilize that complexity in order to generate more satisfying play. Currently, there is a lot of complexity tossed in at the very beginning of the crafting experience, and it doesn't really get much more complex after that. Starting new crafters off with a simplified crafting system makes perfect sense in this regard (in my opinion).

Regarding the limitations of the market system. While it is true that the market system could be improved to accomodate trading of parts, there ARE alternatives. One idea that occurs to me is to utilize the crafting guilds. Currently the crafting guilds sell a modest variety of parts and materials, but generally only at mid-level, and only at a premium price. If the already implemented "task boards" could be adjusted to provide tasks to produce various parts and materials, and then those same parts and materials were made available through a "craft guild market", this would provide a mechanism for the exchange of parts and materials, without overburdening the already-struggling market system.

For example, wooden handles would be a natural task for the CRP guild. So, a player that is looking for a wooden handle would know to travel to the CRP guild in order to buy a wooden handle. The CRP guild could offer tasks for player crafter to create the wooden handles when "the stock gets low". In this way the crafting guilds could still play a role in the social fabric of Eorzea, parts could be made available (in a way that does not "compete" with crafters making parts), and everyone could be happy? Probably not, but maybe a little bit. :)

Ok, I'm changing my mind about the synthing changes. Gimi the simplified changes right now please. I recently got some friends in the game, and that snowballed by getting a few more friends in. Yay, I can form light parties with friends to go do things now. Oh crap I'm the only one who can make anything in the LS...

Yep these changes are going to be a godsend to LS crafters if ever you get a sudden influx of newbies. Holy crap do newbies need a lot of equipment! And they cycle thru it so fast! I spent most of the last weekend either gathering rarer materials or crafting everything in sight. And most of it doesn't even give good progress but is critically necessary to help my friends progress.

So yea, although intellectually I like the realism of the existing crafting system, in reality, drowning in newbies, gimi the simplified one post haste! Even if it's a case of SE fixing the wrong thing (the lack of parts on the market was the market's fault not the parts fault), at this point I don't care.