Please say Heavensward will have a better loot system than Coil

Seriously the horrible RNG system as it is does not work with a static group of 8 members. It *can* work, and might more often than not, but it can also be terrible.

I get the excitement of not knowing what's going to drop that run, but when we only have 4 end game fights we can run each week, tops, there is too significant a chance that someone is simply going to get next to nothing for all their effort.

Last night we got out fourth pair of healer boots in 8 T10 clears, and our third or fourth caster choker. With 1 BLM.

Meanwhile, we have in total 1 tank piece: the bracelet.

I don't mind some RNG, but it should be better.

Heavensward will have a better loot system than Coil

I also would like the drops to be relative to participant classes and jobs.

For instance, no caster drops if there are no casters in the party. No dragoon gear drops if no dragoons in the party.

In fact, make that the standard for all runs. Dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. Make drops relative to the party.

Yoship already said that there will be a token system for raids in Heavensward. It was either in Fanfests or a live letter. Can't remember which one it were.

put in a secondary token system for all RNG based drops while you're at it Yoshi:P not just coil...

I feel you on the bad loot. We have killed T10 5 times now and all 5 times Casting stuff has dropped. Within the first 3 kills our BLM had all the drops from T10 and we had 3 healing hoods drop too. Have only seen 1 tank drop and a bard drop outside of all that.

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

put in a secondary token system for all RNG based drops while you're at it Yoshi:P not just coil...

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I'd rather not carry around 60000 different kinds of tokens.

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

I also would like the drops to be relative to participant classes and jobs.

For instance, no caster drops if there are no casters in the party. No dragoon gear drops if no dragoons in the party.

In fact, make that the standard for all runs. Dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. Make drops relative to the party.

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I >>>Agree!!!

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Originally Posted by Phafi

I'd rather not carry around 60000 different kinds of tokens.

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You don;t have to if you don't want to, scrap them and stick with RNG chances. :p
but for those that hate RNG give US the secondary token system.

I would imagine we would see "token of x" x=attribute where if you got a STR one, you could trade it in for maiming, striking, or slaying pieces.

Where did they say it would be a secondary token system? all we know is a token system is coming

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Originally Posted by Phafi

Where did they say it would be a secondary token system? all we know is a token system is coming

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If that's aimed at me, I didn;t say there will be a secondary token system for all loot, I implied there should be one for all loot.

Well I hope the drops arent only tokens, but theres also RNG drops included as well. My preferred method would be same loot table system as Coil, but with a credit system. You get the drop or you get 1 " boss x credit" and you need like 4 credits to buy an item from that bosses loot table. So it guarantees you get 1 item/month with the added chance of it dropping as well.

Best of both worlds imo.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Well I hope the drops arent only tokens, but theres also RNG drops included as well. My preferred method would be same loot table system as Coil, but with a credit system. You get the drop or you get 1 " boss x credit" and you need like 4 credits to buy an item from that bosses loot table. So it guarantees you get 1 item/month with the added chance of it dropping as well.

Best of both worlds imo.

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that's the kind of system I'd like, but also spread it too all rng based quests/loot tables in the game, looking at you zodiac quest.
Shiva EX has a decent system already, random weapon chance, + 100% drop chance of an upgrade material
Primal focus worked really well too, random chance at jewelry, + tokens for guaranteed 1 weapon per week.

If it's tokens, then bad luck will mean some ppl never get their loot anyway, unless you take turns, as i guess most raid groups do with carbontwines.
that's not gonna work with pugs though...it will be like trying to get sands from ST, except you can only try once/week. and if it's like FCoB, then you can only get a chest on the first try.

I think the random loot is good, it allows you to gear up alts, without having to swap jobs for everyone in the pt; imagine healers wanting DRG stuff, but can't, cause no drg in pt.
I'm maining NIN, in coil, but i get more drg loot than nin :) which i don't really mind, cause drg gear is hot as hell. But yah, don't want to be forced to go as drg, just to get drg gear, or force someone else to go drg, just for the stuff to drop. But obv i rather get nin stuff, to begin with, but meh.
Guess my group been quite lucky, we haven't got many doubles, or unwanted gear; someone always gets something useful.

Tokens of that nature would be implemented more like Shiva EX.
Beat the boss, get a boss specific token, no rolling required. But you need 4 tokens (1 month of clearing) to outright buy an item.
So even the most unlucky raider will eventually get their loot, though it will take them a month per piece, and we will have a new raid by the time they are fully geared.

To address the "too many tokens" problem, ala Atma's taking up 12 inventory slots, how bout a "proof of completion quest" for each raid section, such as:

Talk to Rowena (or Cid), who gives you a quest to scout out the raid zone and inform her of potential treasures and items of value.
This quest has a separate objective for each raid section (T1, T2, etc) and they must be completed in order to update them.
Once you clear a section, or several sections, you go back to Rowena/Cid/Aurelia? (the one who sells Sold/Poe gear) and inform them of your discoveries.
Having done that, you can now 'pay" them to send out further expeditions to acquire certain treasures from sections which you have cleared.
This payment is in the form of tokens either dropped from the section specific boss, or (more likely) a generic token for the raid as a whole, obtained from each boss. To "balance" things, the first 1-2 bosses should give 1, the 3rd boss gives 2, and the 4th boss gives 3.
So someone who just clear the first section needs a month to get something. Someone clearing 2 needs 2 weeks. 3 sections is 1 item per week. The entire raid nets you 1.75 items per week, which I think is fair since you are already beating the entire raid... go gear up something else. =)

Oh, geez, raid-specific tokens? What are they doing? That's what the two tiers of tomestones were supposed to be for!
They were supposed to have played WoW (as admitted numerous times) before creating A Realm Reborn. What did they play? Did they actually do research on why some things were the way they were in WoW?
I mean, they seem dead set on repeating every single mistake Blizzard has made, admitted to, put forth VERY good arguments on the downsides of (which have already been revisited in this game too) and then revised with WoW :P.

It just boggles the mind.

The current loot system is just flawed.

* Imagine when Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist get released! (and later on other jobs (Samurai?, Red Mage, etc.):

Imagine how CROWDED the Loot Pool is going to be on those Chests now with even MORE Job Gear Sets added in! The chances of getting specific gear you want will be even more ridiculous.

While I agree Tokens are rather "boring," it's one way to have *some* incremental progress and lessen all the players suffering from Bad Random Number Generator Luck. To the Dev Team:

* Please consider a Hybrid System: A chance for Gear to Drop in the Chest *and* Token Drops, so players who get unlucky can at least eventually get *some* of their Drops on trade-in.

During 1st Coil, in all the clears we had, I *never* saw the Tank Gloves drop. Not even once. I finally saw them drop when I was on T8 in Second Coil, which, by then made them completely useless. :rolleyes: I've never gotten my Tank Body from T9 either, despite countless T9 wins (even after Echo Buff).

Random Number Generator with Huge Loot Pools = Fail.

It's one thing if we had more Horizontal Progression and More Raids available, and if the Item Level *wasn't* being updated every 5-6 months. But that's a major issue.

I have numerous friends who either never got some of the drops they wanted, or just *barely* geared up in time, before the next Item Level Patch came out, and voila! They have to start gearing up the next Item Level Gear Sets already. It just feels like an endless hamster wheel (where you don't even have any breathing room).

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

In fact, make that the standard for all runs. Dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. Make drops relative to the party.

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Ehh. . .I'm wary of doing this. It's great for people gearing up their main classes, but it sucks for people trying to gear up alts sometimes. Trying to gear your DRG but have to fill a tank slot? Hope there's another DRG in party who doesn't mind passing! >_>

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

I also would like the drops to be relative to participant classes and jobs.

For instance, no caster drops if there are no casters in the party. No dragoon gear drops if no dragoons in the party.

In fact, make that the standard for all runs. Dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. Make drops relative to the party.

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It seems like the only way to do this would be for them to do what WoW did and have tokens for gear. Instead of winning specific job chest item, players would get a chest token to use for any job.

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

I also would like the drops to be relative to participant classes and jobs.

For instance, no caster drops if there are no casters in the party. No dragoon gear drops if no dragoons in the party.

In fact, make that the standard for all runs. Dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. Make drops relative to the party.

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This I would love! Been trying and trying to get the Divine Boots and Darklight Gloves for my Monk, everything else keeps showing up.

I wouldn't be to meh about it, but the ones who drop these items are the first bosses of the dungeons and after beating them, I'm just forced to continue on :/

They could just put tokens in the key item tab, I doubt people are filling that thing up lol...

And I would prefer tokens be turn specific.

Example: T10 tokens only give you T10 drops.

Wouldn't make much sense to me if you were able to buy T13 drops but only could clear T10.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

* Imagine when Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist get released! (and later on other jobs (Samurai?, Red Mage, etc.):

Imagine how CROWDED the Loot Pool is going to be on those Chests now with even MORE Job Gear Sets added in! The chances of getting specific gear you want will be even more ridiculous.

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The only bloat would be on weapons. Tanks share fending loot, healers share healing gear and machinist would likely use aiming/scouting gear.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

Oh, geez, raid-specific tokens? What are they doing? That's what the two tiers of tomestones were supposed to be for!
They were supposed to have played WoW (as admitted numerous times) before creating A Realm Reborn. What did they play? Did they actually do research on why some things were the way they were in WoW?
I mean, they seem dead set on repeating every single mistake Blizzard has made, admitted to, put forth VERY good arguments on the downsides of (which have already been revisited in this game too) and then revised with WoW :P.

It just boggles the mind.

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Blizzard made a lot mistakes over the years but reducing loot RNG and introducing the token system was definitely not one of them.

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

I also would like the drops to be relative to participant classes and jobs.

For instance, no caster drops if there are no casters in the party. No dragoon gear drops if no dragoons in the party.

In fact, make that the standard for all runs. Dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. Make drops relative to the party.

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I want to agree with this in theory. However, in practice, I know a lot of people that have to static on jobs that are not their first choice of job (DPS that goes tank for the sake of the group, for example) and would otherwise have no chance of gearing up their primary job if the system didn't drop everything.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Ehh. . .I'm wary of doing this. It's great for people gearing up their main classes, but it sucks for people trying to gear up alts sometimes. Trying to gear your DRG but have to fill a tank slot? Hope there's another DRG in party who doesn't mind passing! >_>

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go as DRG.

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Originally Posted by Logo

go as DRG.

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Yep, DRG can totally fill that tank slot that needs filling.

Oh, wait. >_>

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Originally Posted by Deculture

Blizzard made a lot mistakes over the years but reducing loot RNG and introducing the token system was definitely not one of them.

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Let me clarify what I meant for you:
Blizzard introduced the Justice and Valor tokens (which the tomestones were designed, at a glance, to emulate), as a replacement for all the raid-specific tokens. This is because managing a whole bunch of different currencies got way too difficult for both Blizzard and the players. For some reason FFXIV introduced new tomestones, but they had always relegated it to only two kinds at a time (currently soldiery and poetics) which led me to think that they're still emulating that system.

So they started by emulating Justice and Valor. Now they're regressing back to the system Justice/Valor replaced that didn't work.

Er, what? Justice and Valor tokens never replaced (and never were intended to - unless this happened just now in WoD?) tier tokens. As you said, tomestones are meant to emulate justice/valor points (preraid blues and raid level purples) while the raid drop tier tokens helped ease off bad RNG raid drops that plagued vanilla WoW.

For those that have no idea what we're talking about, what they're looking at doing now is creating a system where a tier token will drop from a boss rather than the actual gear piece. This gear token will be restricted to certain jobs (for example, a Healer token would be redeemable by SCH/WHM, an Agi token would work for NIN/BRD, STR for DRG/MNK, etc) which vastly reduces the amount of bad RNG luck while still maintaining a somewhat acceptable level of loot RNG.

Deculture. Justice and Valor were introduced in Cataclysm to replace the raid emblem/token system of Lich King.
If the token system FFXIV wants for Heavensward is by loot type, I dare say that's an even worse idea. They'll have to introduce a new set of tokens the next tier to invalidate the existing so people can't stockpile, which just means even more currencies per raid tier sitting around being useless.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

If it's tokens, then bad luck will mean some ppl never get their loot anyway, unless you take turns, as i guess most raid groups do with carbontwines.
that's not gonna work with pugs though...it will be like trying to get sands from ST, except you can only try once/week. and if it's like FCoB, then you can only get a chest on the first try.

I think the random loot is good, it allows you to gear up alts, without having to swap jobs for everyone in the pt; imagine healers wanting DRG stuff, but can't, cause no drg in pt.
I'm maining NIN, in coil, but i get more drg loot than nin :) which i don't really mind, cause drg gear is hot as hell. But yah, don't want to be forced to go as drg, just to get drg gear, or force someone else to go drg, just for the stuff to drop. But obv i rather get nin stuff, to begin with, but meh.
Guess my group been quite lucky, we haven't got many doubles, or unwanted gear; someone always gets something useful.

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I prefer limited RNG. Something they do in WoW with raid gear (or did at one point, I haven't played it in years). Where you'd have a few different tokens per gear slot. IE: you could have something like the following for the head slot:

head token of strength - 30% drop rate - can use to buy WAR, PLD, DRG helms
head token of speed - 30% drop rate - can use to buy MNK, NIN, BRD helms
head token of magic - 40% drop rate - can use to buy WHM, SCH, SMN, BLM helms

the varying drop rates reflect the number of jobs that can use each type

that way there's some randomness in what you get (allowing for extras that go to alts), as well as the entire raid not being able to roll "need" (so you don't end up with issues like ST where it can be very difficult to win rolls in pugs). But since there's only 3 different outcomes you're not likely to get scenarios where you NEVER see a particular type of weapon or armor.

However, in this case it would be nice if they made it so you couldn't roll need on tokens if you currently have the turn in gear for the class you're playing. IE:

head token of strength trades in for heavensward helm of fending (PLD/WAR) OR heavensward helm of maiming (DRG)
you are playing WAR and you currently have in your inventory the heavensward helm of fending: you cannot roll need on any head tokens of STR
you are playing DRG and you currently have in your inventory the heavensward helm of fending: you CAN roll need on any head tokens of STR

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Originally Posted by Deculture

Er, what? Justice and Valor tokens never replaced (and never were intended to - unless this happened just now in WoD?) tier tokens. As you said, tomestones are meant to emulate justice/valor points (preraid blues and raid level purples) while the raid drop tier tokens helped ease off bad RNG raid drops that plagued vanilla WoW.

For those that have no idea what we're talking about, what they're looking at doing now is creating a system where a tier token will drop from a boss rather than the actual gear piece. This gear token will be restricted to certain jobs (for example, a Healer token would be redeemable by SCH/WHM, an Agi token would work for NIN/BRD, STR for DRG/MNK, etc) which vastly reduces the amount of bad RNG luck while still maintaining a somewhat acceptable level of loot RNG.

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this basically

Heavensward dungeons will have a better loot system than coil. But I don't know how it will be with Heavensward Alexander.

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

I also would like the drops to be relative to participant classes and jobs.

For instance, no caster drops if there are no casters in the party. No dragoon gear drops if no dragoons in the party.

In fact, make that the standard for all runs. Dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. Make drops relative to the party.

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Maybe if they do it like in the current expert dungeons. This way no gear will drop that nobody can roll need and still can equip other jobs with them once the duty ended.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

Deculture. Justice and Valor were introduced in Cataclysm to replace the raid emblem/token system of Lich King.
If the token system FFXIV wants for Heavensward is by loot type, I dare say that's an even worse idea. They'll have to introduce a new set of tokens the next tier to invalidate the existing so people can't stockpile, which just means even more currencies per raid tier sitting around being useless.

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Perhaps we're talking about different things? I last played WoW around 6 months ago and there were still raid tokens alongside justice and valor points and from what I hear, they're still around in WoD (for example, Vanquisher token = Rogue, Death Knight, Mage, Druid). Maybe Valor has changed but it was always used as a currency to assist raiders with bad loot luck to fill in slots, which is somewhat similar to how poetics currently work in FFXIV. The main difference is Valor gear almost never was apart of anyone's BiS list when compared to heroic raid gear while poetic gear in FFXIV shows up very frequently in many job's BiS.

And yeah, every tier would indeed need its own set of tokens, which really didn't seem like a big deal at all in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

Deculture. Justice and Valor were introduced in Cataclysm to replace the raid emblem/token system of Lich King.
If the token system FFXIV wants for Heavensward is by loot type, I dare say that's an even worse idea. They'll have to introduce a new set of tokens the next tier to invalidate the existing so people can't stockpile, which just means even more currencies per raid tier sitting around being useless.

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as long as it's 1 token = 1 piece of gear then there's no need to stockpile anything and adding in "new currencies" is easy

they already add in new naming conventions for each new tier of gear anyway, ie: allagan gear, high allagan gear, dreadwyrm gear then they can easily follow the same naming convention for tokens:

IE:
allagan breastplate (token) becomes heavy allagan armor or allagan cuirass of striking
high allagan breastplate becomes heavy high allagan coat or high allagan cuirass of maiming
dreadwyrm breastplate becomes dreadwyrm armor of fending or dreadwyrm mail of maiming

Easy

And the old tokens? No different than having old gear. Trade them in and sell, desynth, or save for glamour like you currently do.

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Originally Posted by SekhmetM

I also would like the drops to be relative to participant classes and jobs.

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YES PLEASE! *begs*

I'm honestly going bat crap insane with my groups loot drops. While last week it was better, the majority of our drops have been dragoon and there is no dragoon in our group. No one in our group likes or plays dragoon as an alt even. What I hate the most is we've now gotten a grand total of four dragoon chests. Half our group has a dragoon chest. Every time I see a dragoon chest I die a little on the inside.

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Originally Posted by Deculture

Perhaps we're talking about different things? I last played WoW around 6 months ago and there were still raid tokens alongside justice and valor points and from what I hear, they're still around in WoD (for example, Vanquisher token = Rogue, Death Knight, Mage, Druid). Maybe Valor has changed but it was always used as a currency to assist raiders with bad loot luck to fill in slots, which is somewhat similar to how poetics currently work in FFXIV. The main difference is Valor gear almost never was apart of anyone's BiS list when compared to heroic raid gear while poetic gear in FFXIV shows up very frequently in many job's BiS.

And yeah, every tier would indeed need its own set of tokens, which really didn't seem like a big deal at all in WoW.

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I guess things have indeed changed since Cata. I wasn't aware this was exactly what WoW did post-Justice/Valor. It seems like they're working backwards to me, but regardless of personal opinion I can't argue with it if it works.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

The current loot system is just flawed.

* Imagine when Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist get released! (and later on other jobs (Samurai?, Red Mage, etc.):

Imagine how CROWDED the Loot Pool is going to be on those Chests now with even MORE Job Gear Sets added in! The chances of getting specific gear you want will be even more ridiculous.

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Dark Knight = Tank gear
Astrologian = Healer gear
For those 2 jobs there would be no new gears in the chests.

Machinist could get Bard gear (then it would be Ranged DPS gear), or get own gear if SE think that Bard's gear design don't fit the image of the Machinist.

They already said they are adding the system. I am hoping they just do what they did in Garuda back in 1.0.

Chest drop gear as normal. And also a token for all participates who cleared.

After you get say 8-10 token items you can trade it in for your choice of gear for said turn.

What I do not want to see is what we have in dungeons for I90 stuff. Aka Ancient Alexanders breast plate => Turns into all body pieces. That would be way way way too patentically easy to get gear at that point.

but honestly....

I blows my mind how people are playing a mmo and complaining there is a rng... Hell this game has less rng then 99% of mmos out there. You are gaurenteed 2-4 BIS pieces of gear per boss fight (when you factor in upgrade items). After token people will be demanding you be able to buy the top tier gear from a vendor for 100k.

If anything the current loot distribution system is already too generous. RNG is part of what makes the mmo genre the mmo genre. Removing the rng leads to a lack of content due to it being too easy to gear up and the devs not being able to deliver content fast enough... something for a decent size portion of ffxiv is already a major issue.

No thanks ill keep the RNG.

Having a token system just screws over the tanks and healers. Because guilds focused on progression give all items to the dps first over tanks and healers. Because you need more dps to beat enrage timers faster. It was already bad previously in 2nd coil, i didn't get a sands/oil until they were made available in hunts because dps got them all. I have yet to get a carbontwine because again the dps need them. I am basically forced to do relic for my weapon because well the tomestones dps get first dibs and by the time its my turn to lot my relic is already better then the tomestone weapon.

If you put in a token system that lets you pick a piece of gear after getting tokens yea the tanks and healers would never get any gear until the dps had everything that is a bad system. Because no guild that wants the fastest progression is going to give gear to a tank or healer over a dps when given an option.

So no on a token system I will keep the rng its more fair at least your other jobs besides dps can have a chance to get gear this way instead of waiting like 3 months later to get gear when the dps finally don't need stuff, or we have to spam the casual catch up content to get ilvls caught up to the dps when SE adds easy ways to get items like hunts.

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Originally Posted by Deculture

For those that have no idea what we're talking about, what they're looking at doing now is creating a system where a tier token will drop from a boss rather than the actual gear piece. This gear token will be restricted to certain jobs (for example, a Healer token would be redeemable by SCH/WHM, an Agi token would work for NIN/BRD, STR for DRG/MNK, etc) which vastly reduces the amount of bad RNG luck while still maintaining a somewhat acceptable level of loot RNG.

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Did they actually state somewhere that is the way they are doing it? If so, source?