what would you consider hard content?

Hi all \o I've just been thinking about the future of content *Mainly end game stuff and how T13 was cleared in about a week only or something? So this got me thinking what do you consider or should be taking into thought about what gose into making content hard with a challenge but not to the point of just being unfair?

I think the major thing we should all think of is how accessible is this content to people? I know people still on T5 that can't clear it but also people like a good challenge!

randomness rather than "team jump rope". Skill and job knowledge > ping/killer latency
stuff like that.

Anything that can't be learned, with more strategy than just pro dancing.

T13 feels more like a roadblock in terms of "we need to keep raiders busy for a few months until the expansion" than a quality, balanced raid such as one found in WoW. I haven't cleared it myself, we're only on divebombs/adds but the level of stress I feel it puts on our healers/tanks is unnecessary. I would much prefer larger raids with more than four bosses for six months.

Also, allow us to challenge ourselves on older content by soloing it. One of the ways I used to kill time in WoW was seeing if I could solo old dungeons to farm for transmog or rare items. I hope to see this in the expansion. . .

Yeah I wouldn't mind abit of a mix up in some fights, nothing too out of the blue wooo that's just bad RNG there! but something that's abit more open then thus follow this script. It's like when I was farming Shiva EX, she just follows a path, would be nice if say when she gets her Staff out she could cast 2 Hailsorms, just 1 or even 3, randomness like that would be good to add.

Like some mentioned, randomness in the fight. Hard is subjective and everyone has their own learning curve. I'd like bosses that you have to actually examine and study their movement to determine what ability they're going to do. Imagine they have a certain ability they use, but their body will have to make a certain movement/spasm/noise etc that alerts you if you paid attention. Didn't pay attention? Well, now you're dead. Yeeeaaah!

Hard content challenges you to play your role well and adapt to disadvantageous or unusual situations while doing so. The amount of rote 'team jump rope or die' memorization in the game lends poorly to this and often gives roles disproportionate burdens to carry.

This gets egregiously exposed when you backtrack to content that's now outscaled by gear. T5 isn't a test of any actual job play ability other than experience in playing Divebomb Divebomb Revolution and T9 is rapidly getting there. This is the source of most 'content walls' in the game - outdated fights that aren't challenging to those who've done them before but still kick pugs in the nads over, and over, and over again for being new.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - it doesn't help that most side-utility skills given to most jobs, especially defensive debuffs for DPS jobs, don't do a damn thing. Even Virus is neutered to hell and back.

Random attacks rather than a attack pattern people memorize.

There was a time when Endgame boss didn't bother to attack in a pattern but attacked using random skill. No matter if you're new or Vet, the random attacks always kept people on guard for anything unpredictable from happening

Elements that they could probably push more for creating difficulty:
- Twitch Reaction (controversial as the higher the difficulty, the more latency is an issue)
- Anticipation
- Awareness
- Execution (They kind of do this enough)
- Resource Management

When I think of hard content, I think of content that is hard for an individual to execute perfectly. Content that when you make a mistake it puts a strain on the rest of the group to recover (with the strain getting bigger as the mistakes cascade into an avalanche) but NOT being an insta-wipe. Too many fights in this game require an entire group to play close to perfectly and it's really frustrating when one person is way overgeared AND has utterly mastered a fight that they're still held back by other players.

I think it should be fairly common to wipe on hard content, but that the content should be reasonably beatable within the hour time limit of most duties given a decent level of gear and player skill. I think SE should lean far less on "mechanics" (by this I mean simply, you need to follow a script exactly) and one shot attacks (especially ones that remove a player from a fight, like landslide for example).

If you want a good example of what I consider to be the right degree of difficulty: Ramuh EX. The mechanics are clever (orbs, chaotic strike, etc) and there is room to recover if someone gets KO'ed. There are still one shot mechanics but they don't feel as heavy handed as Titan EX for example. I think most of the EX primals are okay. I enjoy Titan EX with a good group (a rarity) but it's miserable with people who die to weight of the land/landslide (i.e. before the hard part lol).

I used to enjoy first Coil T1-4 but I've gradually given up on Coil and I often do EX primals when they're no longer really relevant, just because the frustration level/toxicity of other players drives me away. For this reason, I would much rather content be gated behind grinds than by difficulty. What I like about offline RPGs is that if you can't beat a boss you can just level up more and/or get better gear. Echo/better gear is not making some of the fights in this game as easy as I'd like.

Easing mechanics or allowing alternate strategies (T2 enrage or Ramuh EX Titan-egi tanking) only serves to make the game more interesting. Mechanics don't have to be boring (I don't think Ramuh EX is boring) and fights don't have to be instantly beatable, but if you go into a fight like Garuda EX with almost double the minimum gear level (i120-i130 vs. i65) AND have echo, then you should win within the hour timer (and thankfully most groups probably can win). However, the same can't be said for a number of other fights where no amount of gear or echo will make a difference.

Now the players who really like a challenge can clear the content when it's fresh (there will always be fresh challenging content) but players unable to clear Titan EX or T5 a year and a half later? I think that's a bit much. Maybe I'm asking for an easier game, sure, why not, that's what I enjoy. I don't think it's fun to beat my head into a wall for hours and not get anywhere. With 8 person content where everyone has to play perfectly, there is too much room to lose because of one person.

TL;DR: Right degree of difficulty: Coil T1-4, EX primals except for Titan. Wrong degree of difficulty: T5, Titan (Note: I've beaten both but still think they're too much even at this point in time).

in this game? Nothing

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Originally Posted by Lori

in this game? Nothing

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Don't take this the wrong way... but how much endgame have you done?

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Don't take this the wrong way... but how much endgame have you done?

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Probably none. lol

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Don't take this the wrong way... but how much endgame have you done?

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Don't take this the wrong way, oh nevermind you wouldn't understand anyway.

Your individual skill means nothing if the rest of your group can't complete the content. Surely you know this. So where I am in terms of raiding content is irrelevant. I know where I am and I know that i have done enough up through the content we have currently to determine that there is nothing difficult in this game, especially not compared to other MMOs.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. The game is still fun. I'm just saying what I think is true.

Ummm... it appears you're just using this as an opportunity to flash your e-peen. How could you possibly know how this game measures up to other games in difficulty if you haven't even played any endgame? This is a fair question.

I say this from the perspective of an old-school 8-bit gamer who has survived many a bullet hell. More currently, Demon/Dark Souls are my favorite games.

There's plenty of content in FF14 that can pose a challenge. And a hefty one that that. You'd think people were constantly entering Final Coil for the first time and one-shoting it to hear many people go on.

It's not the content that's hard, it's getting 7 other people to coordinate accordingly so that everyone can progress.
It's a shame that people in DF are more coordinated than those in PF.

Anything that doesn\\'t heavily rely on team jump rope.

The dev team can learn something from games like demon\\'s/ dark souls or monster hunter.
The boss fights are still scripted but to an extent where even if u cleared it a dozen times the rng can catch u off guard as the fight can be a bit different than the last which usually gets u killed or almost killed XD.
Ppl used to think omg so pro u cleared t5 omg senpai i worship u <3
8 turns later...
Grats how was it? Was there lots of mechanics to deal with? What were ur gear etc.
Ppl\\'s minds r so prepared now with the current design of the raids tht it becomes routine even if it was a brand new raid.


Can you imagine a 3 alliance endgame coil like raid? The current team jump rope would make it near impossible to clear it as co ordinating 24 ppl would be pretty rough if 1-5 deaths meant wipe lol.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

There's plenty of content in FF14 that can pose a challenge. And a hefty one that that. You'd think people were constantly entering Final Coil for the first time and one-shoting it to hear many people go on.

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Less than 2 weeks for T13 world first tells us that the only real challenge is getting 8 geared people with enough time to spare memorizing a fight to sit down in a room for many consecutive hours without dying IRL.

What people are commenting on is that there's barely any adaptive play opportunities in FFXIV, which is why it is not a game about personal skill. Once you know the basics of your job and have run it for a month of two in dailies you've basically mastered performing it and the only thing left to do is find 7 other people who're willing to sit through the memorization process with you. At best the game has pseudo-random awareness checks.

The difference between say, Dark Souls and FFXIV's 'difficult' endgame, is that you can reasonably expect to complete Dark Souls without someone telling you every little thing that needs to be done against, say, Manus, or O&S, because the game allows for (and encourages) adaptive, intelligent play, whereas FFXIV's endgame has little to none - it's just time investment and memory. Sure, you can memorize those patterns, but unlike FFXIV, you can't recite nearly the exact same button combination every single fight and expect to win.

(Unless you're a pyromancer. Then log off and stop playing the game on easy mode.)

It's certainly hard to memorize Bahamut Prime's attack pattern, but to most people memorization does not equal real or organic challenge.

Hard Content? Hmm, either Titan's rocky skin or Ultima's allagan alloy armor, need a lore expert in here :p

Finding seven other people who will adhere to a certain play time and will always be on time and perform to the best of their abilities. <<--- Hardest content in the game so far.

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Originally Posted by Krr

(Unless you're a pyromancer. Then log off and stop playing the game on easy mode.)

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Ok... I laughed at this.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Ok... I laughed at this.

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R1 UP R1 R1 R1 SQUARE SQUARE R1 R1 R1 R1 UP R1
VICTORY ACHIEVED

YOU DEFEATED

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Y...Fantasy_XII%29 <---- this @$$hole, or damn Ruby Weapon from vii, lol

Asides from that sillyness, in regard to xiv, I agree with what most other people said, less team jump rope more random. I just hate how the same fight we will one shot one night, but on another night 1 person has lag, or 1 person needs to be replaced, and we can't beat the damn thing at all! There is too much 'o no 1 person died let's wipe' bull c*ckery going on I find. I like this game, but there is more challenge in getting 8 people to practise the same pattern for days/weeks and do their lil dances in sync, than I find in actually doing the content correctly myself. And this, I think is what a lot of people find frustrating. They know the content back to front but can't beat it. And there's nothing they can do about, because they're not the ones messin up!

I'd like to see more solo stuff in the game.

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Originally Posted by Man-Sam

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Y...Fantasy_XII%29 <---- this @$$hole, or damn Ruby Weapon from vii, lol

Asides from that sillyness, in regard to xiv, I agree with what most other people said, less team jump rope more random. I just hate how the same fight we will one shot one night, but on another night 1 person has lag, or 1 person needs to be replaced, and we can't beat the damn thing at all! There is too much 'o no 1 person died let's wipe' bull c*ckery going on I find. I like this game, but there is more challenge in getting 8 people to practise the same pattern for days/weeks and do their lil dances in sync, than I find in actually doing the content correctly myself. And this, I think is what a lot of people find frustrating. They know the content back to front but can't beat it. And there's nothing they can do about, because they're not the ones messin up!

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Yeah basically.

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Originally Posted by Man-Sam

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Y...Fantasy_XII%29 <---- this @$$hole, or damn Ruby Weapon from vii, lol

Asides from that sillyness, in regard to xiv, I agree with what most other people said, less team jump rope more random. I just hate how the same fight we will one shot one night, but on another night 1 person has lag, or 1 person needs to be replaced, and we can't beat the damn thing at all! There is too much 'o no 1 person died let's wipe' bull c*ckery going on I find. I like this game, but there is more challenge in getting 8 people to practise the same pattern for days/weeks and do their lil dances in sync, than I find in actually doing the content correctly myself. And this, I think is what a lot of people find frustrating. They know the content back to front but can't beat it. And there's nothing they can do about, because they're not the ones messin up!

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And then what this does is make it hard for new people to clear because it alienates them and the blame gets put on them. I think they should make fights more random. That way, its always a challenge and it would rely less on finding people that memorize fights and more on teamwork. Im and old school gamer and even when they started adding online mmo and such, it used to be about teamwork. Yes, some memorization is needed, but this game relies too much on it and not enough on teamwork. And they need to rework roles, where you aren't stuck doing the same thing throughout the fight just because of your role. Maybe smarter mobs, something. I just don't believe endgame content considered "hard" should force players to go watch videos in order to beat. Im a believer of trial and error

Team-work is one of those things I don't really see as much in this game and probably the most challenging content I still have yet to see delivered in a well executed manner. Yes, we need a "group of people" to beat a boss/dungeon/raid, but I rarely feel part of a team.
Most of the fights in this game are just a big middle finger to newbies and vets alike due to the randomness and execution of certain scenarios.

The only fights I really feel like everyone needs team coordination and skill are Ultima's ballad and Garuda EX. The rest are either a tank and spank free for all, cheap 1 shot boss moves or a fight against your own connection speed.

EDIT: I forgot to add another great example of team work: T1's Caduceus. Yeah, for many, this fight is like taking a candy from a baby, but if you bring any hardcore raiders from any other MMO out there they will cry at how much coordination is required (it was even better when the slimes were required to be fed to Caduceus)
My wife doesn't play the game much anymore but she did tell me that thanks to certain fights and scenarios she feels as a superior player in many other single player and MMos alike.

I'd really like it if the game didn't have to pretend I don't have all the skills I learned how to use to get to level 50 to make the end game "hard".

As PLD I have a silencing attack and Shield Bash ... both of which become very much useless in most all end game boss fights. "But Reivaxe, if you could just interrupt the end game bosses big attacks that would just make it far too easy!!!" ... maybe the way the system is now with mind melting team jump rope, yeah. If the game had organic difficulty and not jump rope then I'm sure they could find ways for players to use all their skills successfully.

As it stands now I can be over geared AND know how to jump rope the fight ... and yet I still can't pass that EX f*ckin Birdgirl cause my team will be at least half pugs who know their roles well enough but don't know the jump rope game.

For the primals, I don't think any of them are particularly difficult. Titan isn't hard. People's internet just isn't suitable for it. Ramuh is okay in terms of difficulty for the primals to me. Primals aren't difficult, but Ramuh encompassed awareness, DPS, communication... more interesting concepts of difficulty. As for the coils, Turn 9 is definitely harder than T10-12. I've only been to second phase in T13 (left group), but was told it is more of a dance than fight.

Would rather have RNG in the fights over remembering a phases mechanics.
T7 was once difficult(SMN Kiting) because of Renaud RNG spawn. Sometimes I was able to place the renaud before the subsequent Voice/Shreik, while other times I had to kite through both. That type of mechanic RNG needs to be placed on ALL members of the party. Tanks shouldn't just have to focus on cooldown management, tank swaps and limited movement mechanics. DPS shouldn't only have to worry about movement mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Ummm... it appears you're just using this as an opportunity to flash your e-peen. How could you possibly know how this game measures up to other games in difficulty if you haven't even played any endgame? This is a fair question.

I say this from the perspective of an old-school 8-bit gamer who has survived many a bullet hell. More currently, Demon/Dark Souls are my favorite games.

There's plenty of content in FF14 that can pose a challenge. And a hefty one that that. You'd think people were constantly entering Final Coil for the first time and one-shoting it to hear many people go on.

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What poses a challenge is entirely subjective.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Less than 2 weeks for T13 world first tells us that the only real challenge is getting 8 geared people with enough time to spare memorizing a fight to sit down in a room for many consecutive hours without dying IRL.

What people are commenting on is that there's barely any adaptive play opportunities in FFXIV, which is why it is not a game about personal skill. Once you know the basics of your job and have run it for a month of two in dailies you've basically mastered performing it and the only thing left to do is find 7 other people who're willing to sit through the memorization process with you. At best the game has pseudo-random awareness checks.

The difference between say, Dark Souls and FFXIV's 'difficult' endgame, is that you can reasonably expect to complete Dark Souls without someone telling you every little thing that needs to be done against, say, Manus, or O&S, because the game allows for (and encourages) adaptive, intelligent play, whereas FFXIV's endgame has little to none - it's just time investment and memory. Sure, you can memorize those patterns, but unlike FFXIV, you can't recite nearly the exact same button combination every single fight and expect to win.

(Unless you're a pyromancer. Then log off and stop playing the game on easy mode.)

It's certainly hard to memorize Bahamut Prime's attack pattern, but to most people memorization does not equal real or organic challenge.

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This person said it perfectly