Do top WAR use Fracture?

So I'm talking about people who pull off 300+ dps in endgame contents. That is, with or without a good NIN/BRD providing TP regen.

I know that Fracture was in a bad place prior to Storm's Eye duration buff, but now you can comfortably fit in Inner Beast and one other gcd before refreshing SE.

The question is, what do you use it for?

While OTing, definitely yes.
While MTing... maybe. It doesn't generate Wrath and is pretty weak under Defiance.

I don't really use it when tanking, and I don't really plan to. Since it doesn't generate wrath, each use is one potential stack of wrath lost. Which means every five uses is a potential Inner Beast lost. Each fracture has 220 potency of damage in it, assuming you don't let it clip. Five fractures is 1100 points of damage potency. However, this is severely impaired thanks to Defiance, whereas 5 skills in your 1-2-3 combo and the accompanying Inner Beast results in 1280 potency ((150 * 2) + (200 * 2) + 280 + 300), 300 points of which is not impaired by Defiance's damage debuff. It also heals you, decreases incoming damage, and requires no TP to use.

So, while tanking, no, I pretty much never use Fracture. Maybe if I'm doing damage with defiance off, sure, but never while I'm tanking.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

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fracture has a potency of 300 as a WAR. Not 220.

In your calculations, you'll get 1500 potency with the fracture, which gives 1125 potency under Defiance.

The counter part is "only" 1035 potency under defiance, so from a strict dps perspective, using fracture is better than not.

That said, it's not factoring the potential need of the damage reduction, nor the TP loss. If you know you'll be short on TP, fracture becomes a bad choice as once you're TP starved, you loses a lot more.

In short :

As OT : yes

As MT : depends. If you know you won't need the damage reduction or if the fight is short enough that you won't be TP starved, use it. If one of those situations is likely to happen, don't use it until you know for sure it's safe

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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My mistake, I forgot Fracture had a trait. I don't actually know how potency correlates to damage (If Defiance nerfs the potency itself or if it nerfs the resulting calculation after buffs and debuffs have been accounted for) but assuming that it nerfs potency directly like you're saying, that would result in:
(((150 * 2) + (200 * 2) + 280) * .75) + 300 = 1035
As opposed to five Fractures over a period of about two and a half minutes:
(((20 * 9) + 100) * 5)) * .75) = 1050 for 9 ticks per fracture
(((20 * 10) + 100) * 5)) * .75)= 1125 for 10 ticks per fracture.
I'm not sure how the game does DoTs specifically, whether the first tick occurs 3 seconds after you first apply it or the moment you hit with it, and I can't log in to check right now.
The difference in either case is less than a Heavy Swing.
More to the point, you're not gonna be wanting to use it in mitigation heavy fights. If you're just off to the side, like in some solo tank fight such as Ifrit/Titan HM, or you're just not doing anything at the moment, go for it. A couple heavy swings worth of DPS, though, isn't really worth the damage that the healers need to heal up in more intense fights. Frankly, if you're looking to just put out some big burst DPS and high numbers with an axe, try just going MRD and using all those wonderful cross-class skills. That's what I do when I know I'm not going to be tanking anything intense.

In Defiance, you're looking at ~1.13% potency/GCD increase. Outside Defiance, you're looking at ~1.97% potency/GCD increase.

Both of these calculations assume you alternate Storm's Eye and Butcher's Block, and Inner Beast as soon as possible. Note: you would actually want to hold Inner Beast if you're about to Heavy Swing and/or Fracture, in order to maintain Infuriated for as long as possible, but I ignored Wrath Crit% for my calculations. I also assume a 2.5s GCD (THIS IS IMPORTANT--no good Warrior, by my reckoning, will be running low skill speed, barring full STR accessories).

Maintaining rotation perfectly, you consume TP ~28.08% faster in Defiance and ~9.62% faster outside Defiance. More to the point, in Defiance, you'll last ~332 seconds at a 2.5s GCD. Outside Defiance, you'll last ~171 seconds at a 2.5s GCD. I want to reiterate that a well-geared Warrior will be running a fair amount of skill speed, so your TP consumption will be even higher, and your TP won't last as long as I've stated here. Edit: Also, I did not calculate for Berserk or Infuriate, but, suffice it to say, they will allow you to last a little bit longer (estimated ~10-15s outside Defiance, if you keep both on cooldown).

Practically speaking:

As MT (in Defiance): First and foremost, I optimize around when I want to use Inner Beast. If I really can't find a way to make use of an earlier Inner Beast, then I'll use Fracture.

As OT (outside Defiance): It depends entirely on TP. While Fracture in Defiance increases your TP consumption more than outside Defiance (relatively speaking), you also last much longer in Defiance. That is, longer than other TP-based raid members. Outside of Defiance, however, it's the opposite. If you can spare the TP, then Fracture, but this is fairly often NOT the case.

I use Fracture if I have Defiance off or Unchained up.

My TP runs low in T10, but the Bard uses AP at various points anyway, and I benefit from it and stay fine usually.

Depends on the fight. If DPS check is necessity (in the case of an EX primal ultimate) I will add fracture in or outside of Defiance. It just really depends on the situation and what the team/fight needs for the encounter, at least for me. And how I determine what I will do to hold hate while recovering TP. But that's what Infuriate, Steel Cyclone, and Flash are for.

Ok I'm a dummy but why is warrior's tp consumption significantly slower in defiance? Inner Beast is just one in every eight gcd, right?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

fracture has a potency of 300 as a WAR. Not 220.

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This really needs to be corrected. DoT ticks from physical skills do not benefit from their damage type debuff. Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge in this case.

So for WAR, the initial 100 potency is really going to be 110. Then 10 ticks of 20 each for 310 total.

This is important because if you compare it to Butcher's block, which starts off as 280 potency, is actually going to be boosted to 308 unless you've made a mistake and let your debuff drop. So you can't talk about your skill potencies and compare a straight hit to a hit+ dot without considering the slashing debuff because it skews the comparison.

Fracture is not as much a dps increase as you'd think, partly because of that and partly because of keeping your buffs up.

So as MT, most definitely not. As OT, if the stars line up perfectly you need something like a 0.3% dps increase but if not, in most cases it's a loss.

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

Ok I'm a dummy but why is warrior's tp consumption significantly slower in defiance? Inner Beast is just one in every eight gcd, right?

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It adds up alot, really. When you're doing really long fights, especially ones with no real breaks to regen TP, you're gonna do alot of 1 2 3 combos, and that gives alot of IB pops over time.

I only use it when the mob is about to jump away for a bit
like titan, or the last boss on stone vigil

I'm no math whiz so this might be a little off; Alistaire is comparing the third hit of a combo to a single attack that can be used at any time. HS(150p) >> SS(200p) >> BB(280p) = 630p * 1.1 = 693p with SE applied. 693 / 3 GCD = 231p per GCD whereas fracture still remains 310p with SE applied for 1 GCD. I've spent substantial amounts of time on the target dummy and I can say without a doubt using fracture correctly will be more than a .3% DPS increase.

In a vacuum, fracture is meh. In a real encounter it is pretty decent.

There are so many times while tanking or OTing, that a boss or mob will become immune, run away, fly away, teleport, require me to pick up adds, blah blah blah, ect. Every time this happens if you know the fight, you should be applying fracture right before. (unless the ability wipes dots) If I am about to go run and pick up an add, it adds a substantial amount of dps if i apply fracture right before i do so. Because now I am dpsing adds AND fracture is still applying damage to the boss. Obviously you don't want to break a skill chain to do this, but you should know the fight well enough to time it up.

Hope that helps.

Fracture is a PPS increase for Warriors regardless.

Excluding SP rotation because that's shit. Where:

BB = BB combo
SE = SE combo
IB = Inner Beast
FR = Fracture

Defiance On
BB SE FR
BB IB SE FR
BB SE IB FR
= 147.4 PPS

BB SE
BB IB BB
SE BB IB
= 129.3 PPS

Defiance Off

BB SE FR
BB SE FR
BB SE FR
= 137.9 PPS

BB SE
BB BB
SE BB
BB SE
BB BB
SE BB
(basically x2 BBs, x1 SE)
= 122.8 PPS

Don't let the PPS numbers fool you btw and jump to the conclusion that defiance = more DPS. Under Defiance, you have a higher Potency Per Second due to Wrath Stacks + IB (which hits like a truck). The DPS bonus you'd receive without Defiance is substantially greater.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

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No offense, but your numbers don't make any sense. Your rotations are also off; you can't use Fracture that often (without absurd clipping), as it has a 30s duration.

Your calculations would conclude that Fracture is in the realm of a ~12-14% pps increase, which is ridiculously high. Nobody would be questioning Fracture's worth, if that were the case.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

No offense, but your numbers don't make any sense. Your rotations are also off; you can't use Fracture that often (without absurd clipping), as it has a 30s duration.

Your calculations would conclude that Fracture is in the realm of a ~12-14% pps increase, which is ridiculously high. Nobody would be questioning Fracture's worth, if that were the case.

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Actually, you're right. I forgot FR is at 30s for Warriors.

With FR
http://puu.sh/eck0N/e302e69860.png

W/O FR
http://puu.sh/eck6x/eac97aa8af.png

Cell W9 is the rotations PPS which is plugged in, or you can check the rotation PPS stuff underneath it which are all labelled off course.

If you're using FR with Wrath Stacks already built up, the accumulated Crits on DoTs goes OTT. So if you do it this way, then yes, it is absurd as your ticks have 30-33% chance to crit, per tick, for 10 ticks whilst infuriated and with IR, and 20-23% infuriated w/o IR. It equates to around 13.1666 PPS, lol.

EDIT: Changes the pictures. Noticed something I did wrong and don't want to put people off.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

With FR
http://puu.sh/ecf8F/695d96d7c3.png

W/O FR
http://puu.sh/ecfSh/020a88cd23.png

Cell W9.

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Huh? It hardly seems fair to compare a rotation with Inner Beast to a rotation without it.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Huh? It hardly seems fair to compare a rotation with Inner Beast to a rotation without it.

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Answer below

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Don't let the PPS numbers fool you btw and jump to the conclusion that defiance = more DPS. Under Defiance, you have a higher Potency Per Second due to Wrath Stacks + IB (which hits like a truck). The DPS bonus you'd receive without Defiance is substantially greater.

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The -25% reduction is massive and hurts the DPS a lot. If Warriors could have Unchained up 100% of the time whilst in Defiance and was wearing DPS gear, a Warrior could nearly match a Monk in terms of DPS. That's how stronk Warriors are.

man argyle u suk m8 #rekt

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Originally Posted by Ephia

man argyle u suk m8 #rekt

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Don't say that. He noticed I was an idiot and used Fracture at 18s intervals, something I overlooked lol

I was confused by the lack of labels; it's better now, but the math still doesn't make sense.

Why is the d2 value for IB 520 on the Fracture rotation, but 472 on the rotation without?

For the two rotations outside of Defiance, one is 65s long (Fracture), and one is 67.5s long (w/o Fracture), and yet the one that's 67.5 long is ~700 total potency behind the other? How is that possible?

And this is why I love getting people to double check my work before they're finalised :D

For some odd reason, it was PPS values by a further 1.1 if fracture was accounted for. Must've happened when I was adding SE in. Ah well.

It's still a PPS increase with fracture, just less than what I posted. Oops.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

And this is why I love getting people to double check my work before they're finalised :D

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You are a cool dude. Seriously - appreciate what you are doing and how you interact with people!