Looking for an official response - Relic weapons

I've been going after one for a while, and I just cant take it anymore. A third of the way through alexandrite, it's taken more than a month to get this far, and I just can't take it anymore. I can't do anything else with my limited time in the game BUT pursue this one weapon, and it's nowhere near the "ultimate" weapon I can have, leaving all others in the dust. There's always something of the same strength that comes along and takes no time to get. It's been nothing but a frustrating chore and I simply can't see beating my head against the wall for it anymore. So my question is "what was the original intent behind this content, and has it lived up to that intent in any way?"

That's exactly what the relic was designed to be, a time sink. And the weapons that compare to it, are not easy to get, at the relic step we have now 125, you have to be in final coil to get either 120/130/135 weapons, so no, it's not easy to get an alternative, you still have to put a lot of time in it. Nobody is forcing you to do your relic, and it is possible to be the best, 2.5 comes along, relic will most likely go up to 135, just another grind. So, it's possible for the relic to be the best in the game, and it's not easy to get for that fact, and that they rely on true rng too much.

There you have it.

If the entire intent is for it to be a timesink, they've done very well.
If you are comparing the time it takes to do the latest step vs the time it takes to get the latest alternative, then perhaps it is comparable. If You're new to endgame and just got your first 50, you can have a level 110 weapon in under a week, however. But for relic you are looking at atma, books, and alexandrite before that step so it takes considerably longer to reach the same level of strength. For every new step they add, this gap increases further.

As far as I'm aware, the Relic Questline was designed to do two things:

1. Be a timesink.
2. Keep old content relevant.

It has succeeded fantastically on both accounts.

You can achieve that i110 weapon in a week but you will go no higher than that until the third part of crystal tower is released and you can upgrade the ironworks weapon to i130 and you will probably be stuck there for months until the next interval happens. Those who choose the tougher path (relic/coil) will have the opportunity to upgrade further but it will cost you, as it should.

With that i110 you can get into better content that can offer better weapons. CT3 is inbound. You can already get the shiva weapons, which are hardly a bad option. And it's not like we are talking about 125 on all your gear, just the weapon. Weapon will impact damage, healing(not necessarily for scholars), and aggro more than any other one piece, but the difference between all 120 with shiva weapon and all 120 with zodiac is minimal. The difference in the time and effort it takes to acquire is not.
And this only makes older content relevant for a short time while the people who capped their weapon in the previous step rush the new step. After that, it's just as irrelevant. I would say it has failed in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Yimiko

And this only makes older content relevant for a short time while the people who capped their weapon in the previous step rush the new step. After that, it's just as irrelevant. I would say it has failed in this regard.

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This isn't true. The mere existence of the Relic Weapon keeps this content relevant. Anyone who does the chain has to go through all of the steps. If the stated goal was instead to "encourage high level players to help low level players through old content", then it would be a failure on the principle of human nature alone.

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Originally Posted by Yimiko

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There are people starting new relics everyday thus keeping the content relevant from here on out. Yes it is much easier to get the shiva weapon than to even complete the very first stage of any relic quest... if that is your argument than you will never see why people go through this. It is the same reason im gonna farm the crap outta t9 for the tank coat (but why when you can just get the IW body??) not only is it sexy and glamor is my end game, but it is the achievement. Achievement is your answer, your not doing this for ilvl, hell most people dont realize that the one thing that trumps weapon dmg is SKILL! Your doing this because you want the look of that shinny zodiac, you want the satisfaction of completing a ridiculous ass quest or you might even be holding on to the notion that the final relic will have some sorta special something that no other weapon in game will have. Because in the end the final zodiac WILL be the hardest weapon to get in the game (unless they nerf it and you can start at the zodiac stage or something like that but that will not happen for years and years if it even does) , and every Final Fantasy has that last over powered shinny weapon that we all when through some crazy fight to get.

Well the original intent of relic weapon is to let people that doesn't raid to be able to get a weapon that is comparable to raid weapon.

The grind is real but for alexandrites, you have several ways to obtain it - a daily quest that gives a map - it can drop from FATEs - purchased using allied seals or getting map with soldiery.

For those that can play everyday, just doing the daily expert roulette quest would take 75 days - you can shorten that by spending soldiery or FATE grinds.

For those that cannot play everyday - perhaps just get the ilvl110 soldiery weapon for the time being or ilvl115 shiva weapon. They are good enough for even end game content.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Well the original intent of relic weapon is to let people that doesn't raid to be able to get a weapon that is comparable to raid weapon.

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This just simply is not true. In 1.0, when relics were released in 1.22b/c their intent was to be THE BEST in the game. You had to do Garuda speed run, AV and CC speed runs, hamlet defense, and Ifrit Extreme.

The original intent of relics was to be the -best- hands down. As someone who got a relic in 1.0 and worked my bum off for it..only to see it reduced to what it is now in game...well...:/

I find it very disappointing how they changed that without a player poll or asking. 0 interest in coil since gear goes obsolete so quickly, etc.

By relevant, I mean "frequently run." Relics don't keep content in that status beyond initial bumps. It may be /more/ frequent than without a particular step later on, but it won't be objectively frequent. When you are the one who needs something, the relic having included that step won't help you all that much going forward.
In addition, if the relic is meant to be the "best" weapon, this content no longer makes sense within the original design of ffxiv. Armory chest, multiclassing, crossclass skills, the game was designed so that you could and should change classes freely, not get stuck in a single role. Relics throw all of that out the window. You have to grind as the one class you want to finish your relic on for months, and if you wanted all classes powered up with this...There are just so many ways this content could quickly and easily be brought in line with the original concept of the game. Made more for fun and less as a torture test. I see no sense in it remaining as it is.

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Originally Posted by Yimiko

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YES! The "original" concept, I do remember somewhat well and as Meier mentioned before you, it was originally touted by SE to be something that had invested value to be (depending on patch) an incredible weapon, yes it took a long time/lot of dedication, but the RANDOM that has been thrown over this to make it a total waste of time means VERY FEW people actually get very far with it at all and since about 2.2/2.3 Relic has sadly been dying a very unnecessary death.

EG WHM is Animus, MNK is Atma (both i100) & the rest are Zenith (i90), these weapons are simply just not appropriate for any end-game content post-2.3, but I can't progress at the rate I play trying to get there because of this fucked up RANDOM BS.

I believe the RNG is abused so heavily because back in 2.0, you had people getting their relics and zenith relics quicker than the devs anticipated.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

RNG is abused so heavily

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Brutally abused! So glad I can accomodate SE developer's "anticipation" and bank accounts, I really wish they would do what they did in 1.0 and LISTEN to the players about this detrimental system and understand "my anticipation" of how I want to play, I do not wish to be taunted for something I pay for.

When was the last time we had a player poll? Why is the player base not being consulted on their time in 2.0 as a calibration for 3.0? How is Square Enix sure 3.0 won't turn out like 1.0.1? WHAT IS HAPPENING TO RELICS!?????

I think someone had posted on another thread and i agree, Relic is just a personal trophy pretty much.
Alternative weapons can be used to take you to final coil to get Dreadwyrm, and 3.0 will have new weapons again as well

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Originally Posted by monochromicorn

Nobody is forcing you to do your relic.

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This is the laziest response ever. And don't bother with the "But it's true" counter you're inevitably going to be coming up with next. I've been doing this dance for 15 years and it's always the same. Someone points out a problem with optional content and instead of addressing it, you hit out with "Nobody's forcing you to do it!"

Well guess what? That's why you're not in game development. That's why game developers rarely listen to their community. You don't know what you want and you sure as hell can't argue for or against anything.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I think someone had posted on another thread and i agree, Relic is just a personal trophy pretty much.
Alternative weapons can be used to take you to final coil to get Dreadwyrm, and 3.0 will have new weapons again as well

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Nope, sorry I disagree. For some players Relic weapons are the only choice. It might be a "Personal Trophy" to you but its "My" main weapon.

For me, the relic weapon is more relic than weapon now. Sits in my retainer's inventory as an effigy to something I once worked hard for, but lost all value in.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

For me, the relic weapon is more relic than weapon now. Sits in my retainer's inventory as an effigy to something I once worked hard for, but lost all value in.

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Awwww, so sad. Don't make me cry. lol

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Originally Posted by Yimiko

Armory chest, multiclassing, crossclass skills, the game was designed so that you could and should change classes freely, not get stuck in a single role. Relics throw all of that out the window. You have to grind as the one class you want to finish your relic on for months, and if you wanted all classes powered up with this...There are just so many ways this content could quickly and easily be brought in line with the original concept of the game. Made more for fun and less as a torture test. I see no sense in it remaining as it is.

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I completely agree with this. I'm doing my best to upgrade my gear so that I can finally "complete" WHM and move on to another class. Obviously new content will come out and my WHM will lag behind, but the grind for Relic weapons is preventing me from enjoying anything else about this game. It seems silly to me that they would create such a massive game, but have things in place to prevent you from playing it properly.

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Originally Posted by LeafRobelle

I completely agree with this. I'm doing my best to upgrade my gear so that I can finally "complete" WHM and move on to another class. Obviously new content will come out and my WHM will lag behind, but the grind for Relic weapons is preventing me from enjoying anything else about this game. It seems silly to me that they would create such a massive game, but have things in place to prevent you from playing it properly.

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Then you're just not the kind of player the relic quest line is done for. This is an mmo, huge parts of the player base are expected to no-life it, and they do.

FC friend of mine - blm main for a long time - decided to go monk this patch cycle, because his new static needed one. ~14 days later he went into fcob with his kaiser claws.

The whole point is, if you don't give people content they can no-life, you will lose their subs until the next update (or completely). SE pretends they're okay with this, but of course they're not.

If you feel like relic is keeping you from doing stuff you would actually enjoy more but still keep doing relic, you're playing the game wrong. Just get your HA/upgraded shiva ex wep, they're more than good enough for now, then get one of the new tome weps once they're available outside of fcob (probably 8 days from now) or even get it in fcob if you're doing it.

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Originally Posted by Maero

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Dreadwyrm weapons are subject to the same RNG as any other coil drops. Therein lies the fallacy of your argument.

The whole point of the relic weapon (now zodiac weapon) is to offer an always-guaranteed (well given the RNG-heavy Atma/Zodiac phase even this isn't true anymore) alternative.Why do we need alternatives? Because you could run FCoB 12,459 times and NEVER see your weapon drop. That's the nature of RNG, there is never any guarantee. That's the point of the Relic/Zodiac. It's a, "hey, looks like coil RNG is screwing you over, at least you've got something from all your hard work that will still be viable in 9 months (assuming you put the time in to upgrade it)" weapon. It's no more a trophy than any other weapon in the game. It's simply an alternative.

I still see people getting stuck in coil T5, not even mentioning T9, not necessarily because of lacking skills or effort, but because they can't find decent people to run hard content with. Relics may serve to help with Coil RNG, as Velox mentioned - but not only that. They require a single-handed (?) effort rather than a group effort, and that's what makes them "easier" to get. An alternative necessary for those who don't have other people backing them up - which I believe is what Fran said before.

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Originally Posted by Yimiko

With that i110 you can get into better content that can offer better weapons. CT3 is inbound. You can already get the shiva weapons, which are hardly a bad option. And it's not like we are talking about 125 on all your gear, just the weapon. Weapon will impact damage, healing(not necessarily for scholars), and aggro more than any other one piece, but the difference between all 120 with shiva weapon and all 120 with zodiac is minimal. The difference in the time and effort it takes to acquire is not.
And this only makes older content relevant for a short time while the people who capped their weapon in the previous step rush the new step. After that, it's just as irrelevant. I would say it has failed in this regard.

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what?
upgrading my books have always seemed to boost both mine and selene's heals

Relics in 11 and games like Gw2 are much harder to get.

For me it's mainly been about having some progression in a small window of time. When I was doing my relic I had maybe two hours every other day to do something, an hour before work before going out the door for work..or if I had some extra time during lunch. During those periods I didn't have the time to sit there as a DPS for 30 / 40 minutes waiting for duty finder to come up or waiting for party finder go fill up. Sometimes they do fill up fast that's true, other times it takes forever...people dropping, going AFK. Then you finally run and might not get a win or drop which is just time wasted.

There's a chance that your item can drop and you get into a quick party which is great. But other times, when I have 45 minutes of free time to spare I can go do a few maps. Light farming has been the tougher part, I have to wait to see what the rest of the server is doing and I slowly get there. Time is freeing up luckily, so I don't think i'll have so much of an issue.

I know this also goes against the fun grind of doing older dungeons and content for a small % of drops. Though I am lucky enough to have a few friends in this game who wouldn't mind trying out a run or two with me during my spare time. I won't get my final relic as soon as the guy who plays 10 hours, but I look at it as a 3 month period to get something done. Whether I get it done in a week or 2 months, the stats will be the same and I'll be happy.

This fucked up RNG that they seem to love means that if you only have 1 or 2 hours to play, you could play every day for a year and NEVER make any progress towards getting a relic. You either get a drop or don't and chances are that you won't get the drop (since each run is individually a small chance to get a drop). I can't fathom why these assholes don't program into the gameplay increased odds of getting a drop after X number of dungeons runs without getting a drop. The worst part is that SE basically laughs at you for complaining about RNG.. They just seem to go "oh well, hahahahaha... so-and-so got relic in 1 day so its possible :) keep playing! please look forward to it!" I must say my interest in this game is waning because of this and also because a lot of people I know have quit over this stupid RNG....

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Originally Posted by Yimiko

I've been going after one for a while, and I just cant take it anymore. A third of the way through alexandrite, it's taken more than a month to get this far, and I just can't take it anymore. I can't do anything else with my limited time in the game BUT pursue this one weapon, and it's nowhere near the "ultimate" weapon I can have, leaving all others in the dust. There's always something of the same strength that comes along and takes no time to get. It's been nothing but a frustrating chore and I simply can't see beating my head against the wall for it anymore. So my question is "what was the original intent behind this content, and has it lived up to that intent in any way?"

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There's a philosophy I've seen used in other MMO games that this seems to follow as well. That is:
You have 2 avenues for obtaining the game's most desirable rewards:
- high difficulty encounters, or
- extreme repetition of lower difficulty steps

Relic quest obviously aims for the 2nd part. Poetics Tomestones would be another example. FCoB represents the 1st part, for now.

If I were advising newer players, I would tell them to largely stay away from the relic quest. Maybe spend a bit of time when not able to do other, higher-value things, but avoid spending large % of time on relic. Get a static and raid coil+primals, or Poetics tomes and CT/ST/WoD outside of raid time.

Only reason I have Ragnarok currently is because I have had enough time on the side starting back in 2.0 to do that. And also my raid group likes to give coil weapon tokens to DPS first, which means I have a month or 2 to work on relic before an equal or better raid weapon finds it's way into my hand.