Discuss: Are DPS meters bad for MMOs?

I've read up this article here:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/12...-bad-for-mmos/

What do you guys think?

Please keep it civil.

Its only as bad as the players that uses it.

Just like with anything else in the game, some will use it to abuse others and some will use it for good.

are parsers bad for mmos? no.
are people who use parsers to make people feel horrible bad for mmos? yes.

Its a tool used to gain information, how one uses the information is up to the user. To claim the tool is somehow a negative influence over the user is ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

are parsers bad for mmos? no.
are people who use parsers to make people feel horrible bad for mmos? yes.

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I don't think this is about the parsers, it doesn't matter what you use but if players use a tool to critic someone performances. It's just terrible toward the community. Especially to people you never met or random joined.

Tool is useful for your own information but never use it against someone.

As stated above me, parsers (the program itself) are actually useful for those number crunching people who like to improve themselves w/o having to break out a calculator or spreadsheet.

Like with anything in life, or MMO's there is always those people who either A.)Troll or B.)Grief others in an attempt to make them feel bad w/ tools such as these. Just my personal perspective, you should never limit yourself because of all the bad that might come from it, how else are you going to see the good in it if you don't ever try?

It's always an awkward line.

Having a way to test your own personal DPS and contrast it to your peers can give you a decent measure of how you're doing, and really push players to improve. It can be a slap in the face when you look at your 180 DPS, feel great, and then look it up and realise than an i90 Bard spamming Heavy Shot - and nothing else, no cooldowns, no DoTs, no nothing - does more than you. But it's a slap in the face people can use sometimes. And even if not that severe a realisation, realising you can push forward can get you interested in seeking the how, and improve as a player.

That said, there's also an overimportance placed on it frequently - only a handful of content in the game ever has super strict DPS checks where it actually matters if you're parsing in at 350 instead of 400, but when it's data visible to all players some will inevitably hound others about it (eg 'DPS scoreboards' after an instance). Consider players in i80-85 gear in EX dungeons - it's not that this is insufficient, but any measure players can use to harass others can and does get used. Nevermind that this number won't even necessarily tell the whole story - in Turn 8, a Monk doing more than enough DPS might still drop to the bottom of the list if they keep getting Shrieks throughout the fight, for instance.

The information a visible parser/DPS meter/etc gives to an inidividual is useful - when that information is forcibly handed over to another player to see though it's frequently misused.

Topic had been done to death. Used for constructive introspection or to see where you can help yourself or team mates improve, yes it's overwhelmingly positive. Used as a tool to harass other players no it isn't.

As with a lot of things it is to what purpose you use it for that determines whether it is constructive to the community or not. I sit on the side of it being an overall positive impact but I understand the other perspective. I feel that those who use it to harass others would find a way to harass people whether there's a parser or not so I don't blame the tool for the state of the MMO community.

Not having it isn't half-bad from a causal player's perspective.

People can concentrate on playing the stupid game instead of staring at meters all the damn time then throwing hissy fits over minor deviations from the "expected".

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Just my personal perspective, you should never limit yourself because of all the bad that might come from it, how else are you going to see the good in it if you don't ever try?

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I personally absolutely agree with this, but I'm still torn on allowing my personal improvement desires to come at the price of those who may be mistreated due to these being added...

Perhaps if it only showed personal DPS, to begin with. Baby steps.

I will only use it when the raid is not getting the DPS required and there for I am force to bring out the dps meter secretly to know who is that one fella pull us all down but this only happen in party finder or duty finder it does not apply static because most of the time they do great unless is a newly formed raid

Parsers are great for the hardcore raiders, for everyone else they are just toxic. If someone is completely slacking you do not need a parser to see that. Knowing your own dps is one thing, but I don't need to see everyone elses. Hell if a parser is added I know I might even get annoyed with whoever is last even if there isn't a problem. I just don't see much good coming from it.

Honestly the current don't ask don't tell approach is probably best. If you start griefing someone with it, you should be punished.

1: Any program that may help you be a better player (skillwise or behavioral) ie: autotranslate is a good thing.

2: Content that revolves around DPS checks.. is what makes it fail.

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Originally Posted by Rubieus

1: Any program that may help you be a better player (skillwise or behavioral) ie: autotranslate is a good thing.

2: Content that revolves around DPS checks.. is what makes it fail.

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DPS checks or no DPS check, players will still discriminate against each other. Why? "Efficiency".

Corollary to Murphy's Law,

If players can be jerks to each other, they will be jerks to each other.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Parsers are great for the hardcore raiders, for everyone else they are just toxic. If someone is completely slacking you do not need a parser to see that. Knowing your own dps is one thing, but I don't need to see everyone elses. Hell if a parser is added I know I might even get annoyed with whoever is last even if there isn't a problem. I just don't see much good coming from it.

Honestly the current don't ask don't tell approach is probably best. If you start griefing someone with it, you should be punished.

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It may be toxic but it's great. I used to be a bad DPS till some one pointed out my dps and so that how I got better at it and became one of the highest in my fc is all about change not alway toxic

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

It may be toxic but it's great. I used to be a bad DPS till some one pointed out my dps and so that how I got better at it and became one of the highest in my fc is all about change not alway toxic

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Wait, you mean you used to be bad, someone told you, you listened and became better? It's almost like rational human beings can use parsers for the right reasons.

Are they bad? No.
Are they needed in this game at all? No.

A self only parser would be the ideal solution.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

are parsers bad for mmos? no.
are people who use parsers to make people feel horrible bad for mmos? yes.

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That's exactly what I was thinking.

• That reminds me of that stupid french canine law severly restricting ownership of some (back then) considered dangerous dog species such as American Staffordshire Terrier, English Mastiff, Tosa race, Rottweiler etc.
  (Restrictions such as: Can't buy, sell, give away, import, bringing them in public places and public transportation modes. Sterilization is obligatory as well as a permit delivered after you prove your skills in educating a dog of one of those species to be allowed to acquire one.)
  All that because there were dickheads in suburbs using those poor dogs as a weapon.
  Blame the dog owners misusing them, not the dogs themselves.
  
  
• That also reminds me of GearScore addon in WoW WotLK... It was a great tool to know in one second what a person was wearing (his average score aka gear level)... Which was then the mandatory characteristic you had to provided for an inv to any high level group content. Needless to say, in the end people asked for outrageous scores just to "ensure" the kill. Hoping more gear would resolve lack of skill / experience / knowledge. Players criticized the addon, when in fact it was just dickheads abusing it.
  Since then, WoW and as I saw FF14, include a way to see one's average item level in one glance ^_^
  Blame the players abusing the tool, not the tool itself.
  
  
• Parsers ARE NOT a bad thing. Thanks to those, you can see your own improvement, by improving your rotation, reactivity, or changing gear optimisation.
  It's the dickheads using them to blame people when they see them doing low(er) dps than themselves. While it's almost never the reason of a wipe, except on DPS races like Ifrit's Nail for ex. Otherwise, if you wipe it's not because of one guy doing less dps than you, it's because someone failed at the encounter mechanics.
  Blame the players misusing parsers to bully other players, not the parsers themselves.
  
  
• Tl ; dr Dickheads everywhere, especially on the internet where anonymity reigns supreme.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with parsers at all. The problem lies with the person who is using them and decides to be an ass to other party members based on their dps output.

Maybe the can make it where you can use parsers in every thing EXCEPT DF. So if you create a party, party leader can set parser to show, but everybody in party will be able to see or be notified that parser is in effect before joining party. almost like how in some states you can't record conversations without letting the caller know they are being recorded. So that way, if you do a DF, you shouldn't be worried about output because you just should be worrying about the clear. Parser should be used for "training" purposes only, catch my drift?

not having dps meters is like being on a track team without stop watches

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with parsers at all. The problem lies with the person who is using them and decides to be an ass to other party members based on their dps output.

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In table top RPGs, I believe min-makers that spoil the fun for others are simply not reinvited next week.

I suppose this aspect of RPG gaming is harder to emulate online.

I barely see anyone complain about how people have too low DPS in this game. It was horrible in other MMOs though, especially in F2P games where you can find jerks everyday.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

Maybe the can make it where you can use parsers in every thing EXCEPT DF. So if you create a party, party leader can set parser to show, but everybody in party will be able to see or be notified that parser is in effect before joining party. almost like how in some states you can't record conversations without letting the caller know they are being recorded. So that way, if you do a DF, you shouldn't be worried about output because you just should be worrying about the clear. Parser should be used for "training" purposes only, catch my drift?

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But damage output is related to clears.

Could get into detail with it, but generally i see more pros than cons with using parsers. However the cons are very strong and in the end it depends on whos using them and how much of a jerk they can be while using them. It is a nice tool to have though for analyzing progression

I was in a Shiva party where someone was using this to pretty much shit all over the DPS by informing them how terrible their numbers were. I really don't think random people want to be monitored in that kind of way

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

I've read up this article here:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/12...-bad-for-mmos/

What do you guys think?

Please keep it civil.

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Generally everything Massively says is automatically wrong.

You should instead ask this: do developers need to restrict things because of people's lack of decency?

Or, does your local cinema need to restrict selling popcorn because of a group of people that like to throw with it?

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

You should instead ask this: do developers need to restrict things because of people's lack of decency?

Or, does your local cinema need to restrict selling popcorn because of a group of people that like to throw with it?

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If someone gets too annoying throwing popcorn they can get punched in the face or at least thrown out of the theater if it gets too much of a problem. If someone gets too annoying on the internet, without the company stepping in to do something, they are free to do whatever they want. Yes moderators need to be in place to control behavior.

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Originally Posted by jars

not having dps meters is like being on a track team without stop watches

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Except not everyone sees this game as a competitive race.

Some jerk yelling at you to "go faster" when you just want to take a evening stroll and watch the sunset, kind of sucks.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

You should instead ask this: do developers need to restrict things because of people's lack of decency?

Or, does your local cinema need to restrict selling popcorn because of a group of people that like to throw with it?

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They do "restrict" people from shouting "Fire!" for no reason in a crowded cinema though.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

DPS checks or no DPS check, players will still discriminate against each other. Why? "Efficiency".

Corollary to Murphy's Law,

If players can be jerks to each other, they will be jerks to each other.

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Sorry for the late reply, I agree vehemently with you, I was just answering the question. Is it a good or bad thing? In most respects, it is neither, but I lean toward good because it does help you manage a better play level. A better player makes runs smoother.

We had jerks before we had dps meters so. The real question is, is playing an MMO or any game with multiplayer aspects worth it?

I would like to see my own dps, and just my own dps in a vanilla game. I want to see how much contribution I'm making as a dps SCH, stance dancing and weaving spells in between.

as a tool for improvement it's a nice tool, sadly, with human nature.... the parseer can do more damage than any bombing outside. it's violent but, how many time did you see a jerk screaming about someone he do see too low with him all mighty parseer, i'm sure everyone did meet one at least one time.

in the hand of a Raid leader that must make sure that the raid reach a dps check, the parseer or dpsmeter is an amazing tool.
in the hand of pro theorycrafter that like to find the most efficient way and discuss it on the forum after hand and never really use it in content, it's almost mandatory.
in the hand of the mass, is like give a gun to a baby...

solution? easy:
- in raid, give a windows that show a dpsmeter to the raid leader only.
- make training room where you hit dummy, and there you can have an integrated dpsmeter, that allows you to test your cycle and such.
- but outside this two case, forbide totally the use of the dpsmeter and parseer.

finally, i will be blunt good player don't relly on the parseer, when they have master them cycle and check them gears, they barely need to check if them dps move a inch or not, the question is to get the jobs done! not to see big number! in raid you are a team, competition is nice but can lead to stupid move. i'm sure a lot of raid leader must time to time be firm with some dps because of the kikimeter ^^

Anyway, I'm not sure why opening such a hot topic, because except for PS3/4 users, PC players can use a parser if they want to.

And since bullying people telling them they do too low of a dps on their parser is a bannable offense (which everyone should report, that way less jerks ingame, justified or not you don't need to spoil the fun out of others, everyone pays to play a game not to be yelled at)...

As of now, unless you're a console user, the situation is alright. No official parsers means less jerks ingame relying on them to abuse people. Or if they do, they can't specifically link it to parsers or get potentially banned for that.

I never seen anybody complain about dps being too low. I myself actually congratulate the few people I see every now and then doing really good dps (and when in Duty always Recommend them)

If it is a content like t10, then I want to know exactly, why we keep hitting enrage at 5%, and who is the weakest, since his improvement will be the biggest improvement for total group dps.

If it is a content without strict dps checks, then seeing others dps is not important, but it is still good for:
a) If there is someone on same job, who does better dps than me, I can compare our rotations and improve myself
b) I can commend person who does good dps (because he puts effort to do it). And no way you will notice this in 8-man groups without a tool.

Using these apps is bannable though isn't it? I mean I would like to have a way to monitor how I'm doing with my black mage but not if it runs a ban risk.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Using these apps is bannable though isn't it? I mean I would like to have a way to monitor how I'm doing with my black mage but not if it runs a ban risk.

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SE is OK with personal DPS monitoring and might someday implement a way to do so.

As for existing 3rd party ones, they know about it. It's tolerated ... for now. It is against the ToS.

Back in my day we were able to pass DPS checks in MMOs before anyone even knew what a parser was. Do you know how we did it? If your party failed a DPS check, everyone took responsibility for it. There was no "blame game." Every single person told themselves, "I need to get better so we don't wipe again," regardless if they were actually the ones holding the party back or not, and then proceeded to practice on other enemies or dummies.

The problem now-a-days is that kids have gotten so overly dependent on software to help them that they can no longer help themselves. A parser is like a wheelchair when you have a broken leg. Sure it makes the healing process quicker, but if you continue to use it you become dependent on it. Months later your legs start to atrophy because you stopped using them and you find that you can't function without the wheelchair anymore.

That being said, if this game MUST have some sort of DPS meter added, a decent compromise would be to have training dummies record hits while you are in combat with them and have it displayed. This way people have a way for self-improvement without inconveniencing everyone else.

Frustrating content design contributes way more to players being a-holes than any number of dps meters. Compare your average expert 4man run to the average LOTA run or party finder entries trying to pug Coil.