Why no dueling?

I understand its hard to balance combat in a 1v1 setting but its just for fun. Why not?

Gold Saucer coliseum battles. Please look forward to it.

You dream... Square Enix will do nothing for PvP on this game...



Sieghilde Schtauffen

Its not hard, its simply not possible to balance 1:1 without nerfing every class to hell and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Eggnook24

Gold Saucer coliseum battles. Please look forward to it.

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Wow thank god.

Unless they gonna rework ALL the jobs when in this coliseum 1 on 1 instance I don't see the point in even making such a thing. When it comes to 1 on 1 scenarios the jobs are all incredibly unbalanced and (assuming equal skill between dueling players) pretty much every job is at the mercy of war and pld one on one.

Balance it so you can only duel players on the same Class/Job you currently are. Done.

Actually, also throw in an iLevel Sync so the highest level player is synced down to the lowest. That way you don't have the balance issues of a i130 Warrior crushing a i55 Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Balance it so you can only duel players on the same Class/Job you currently are. Done.

Actually, also throw in an iLevel Sync so the highest level player is synced down to the lowest. That way you don't have the balance issues of a i130 Warrior crushing a i55 Warrior.

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Why bother then? Not that I'm a fan of dueling anyway, but equalizing their level pretty much just makes whoever has the highest skillspeed/spellspeed win so long as they're both competent. With, well, all of how this game is designed, I don't think duels could be interesting. Same class duels you'd both just be doing the same thing to each other more or less, and off class there are such extreme discrepancies that it would almost never be a fair fight.

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

Its not hard, its simply not possible to balance 1:1 without nerfing every class to hell and beyond.

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Okay, see, that's just thinking too narrowly.
To say it's not possible to balance it without just making the classes unplayable is just silly.
Here's what I propose, instead of being ridiculous and limiting duels to people of the same class:
Put out whatever nerfs/buffs would be needed to properly balance 1 v 1 combat so that each class is on somewhat equal footing. You know, whatever it takes to make it fair and fun against each class.
Then, instead of putting out the adjustments like you normally would, put them in a status effect.
Whenever two people accept a duel, have the game give them this status effect, which will properly adjust their class to the specified stats to make it fair.
Also make it so that if somebody clicks off their status effect, they immediately forfeit the duel, just so people can't click it off and go to their normal stats mid-fight.
Once the duel is over, the status effect will vanish and their stats will return to normal.
This will let them rework the jobs and make 1 v 1 combat fair and enjoyable without affecting any other aspects of the game.
This lets people who don't want to duel keep their stats the way they like by keeping SE from having to roll out stat changes just to accommodate duels.
People who want duels get their duels, and people who don't want to duel are left wholly unaffected.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

Why bother then?

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Because the idea is the individual who is more skilled should win in a duel, not the individual who is better geared, or on a Job which beats another Job?

I've done plenty of 1v1s in Frontlines. Same (or similar) Jobs are always a blast. Taking on a Black Mage on Warrior is hilariously one sided. If they let any Job duel any Job, I really doubt you'd actually end up seeing many duels like that. Not unless they did a massive rebalancing for duels, but given their current work on PvP, I'm not going to hold my breath for that. Same Job, iLevel Sync is something they could push out in an afternoon if they wanted. It requires no rebalancing because it's just personal skill verses personal skill, which is what PvP should be about anyway.

I think SE is sorta on track with pvp balance as it is. Don' t they already nerf individual skills in a pvp environment anyways? Like BLM swift cast spells only do 50% damage in pvp. It doesn't affect the class in PVE whatsoever.

At the moment the jobs are more balanced for team scenarios, but as someone already said, fighting the same job is perfectly fine and fun for right now.

They do seem to be slowly making adjustments towards more balance. And I swear at one point SE mentioned dueling within the confines of an FC house. >_> Source still not offhand but still.

The point of duels isn't about epeening over beating the other person, so 1v1 balance is a non issue. The purpose of duels is to practice fighting against classes and learning the best ways to play against them.

Also, ilevel sync would be absolutely retarded.

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Originally Posted by Layth

The point of duels isn't about epeening over beating the other person, so 1v1 balance is a non issue. The purpose of duels is to practice fighting against classes and learning the best ways to play against them.

Also, ilevel sync would be absolutely retarded.

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Intended application and actual application can be far different. The moment 1v1 duels are added someone is going to start trying to measure epeen using them.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Intended application and actual application can be far different. The moment 1v1 duels are added someone is going to start trying to measure epeen using them.

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This is a non factor to me, however. It's really no different than someone measuring "epeen" using ilvl and knowledge of raid or trial content.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Intended application and actual application can be far different. The moment 1v1 duels are added someone is going to start trying to measure epeen using them.

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Of course. That shouldn't be a reason against adding in the function though.

Duels can be a helpful tool for learning how to deal with situations with no pressure or penalty for "losing". If you keep getting yolo420swag rekt by ninjas in FL, duel one over and over until you're more comfortable against them.

FL and WD don't provide that opportunity since you're immediately under pressure to win, instead of learn.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Intended application and actual application can be far different. The moment 1v1 duels are added someone is going to start trying to measure epeen using them.

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So then let them?
I mean, christ
That's already happening with literally all the other content in the game, doesn't mean we should get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by Layth

Of course. That shouldn't be a reason against adding in the function though.

Duels can be a helpful tool for learning how to deal with situations with no pressure or penalty for "losing". If you keep getting yolo420swag rekt by ninjas in FL, duel one over and over until you're more comfortable against them.

FL and WD don't provide that opportunity since you're immediately under pressure to win, instead of learn.

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Sorry, but your example is very poor. The main reason people get "rekt" by ninjas in Frontlines is their sneak attack/trick attack out of hide alpha strikes. That something a duel can't teach you to be prepared for.

All a 1v1 duel prepares you for are 1v1 duels. They don't prepare healers to be focused by more than one person. They don't teach Paladins how to properly cover and protect other characters.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

So then let them?
I mean, christ
That's already happening with literally all the other content in the game, doesn't mean we should get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

This is a non factor to me, however. It's really no different than someone measuring "epeen" using ilvl and knowledge of raid or trial content.

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Level of player toxicity would be on a very different scale. Taunting, harassment, duel invite spamming...

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Originally Posted by Layth

Also, ilevel sync would be absolutely retarded.

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Honestly, given you seem to want duels for practice (Ultimatecalibur pretty much covered why that doesn't work, so I wont bother) I'd love to know why, given PvP is ilevel capped. What sense is there practicing on a i130 Black Mage against a i80 Dragoon? All that does is give miss information, like how many nukes it takes to kill them, or how many hits you can take. If you're both capped at the same level, like you would be in the regular PvP you're practicing for, it gives a much better base to practice from.

I would actually say Wolves' Den is there for practicing. 4v4 lets you learn how classes work with and against each other and is far more useful than learning how quickly a good Marauder can wreck any mage 1v1. Duels have never been about practice, they've always been about settling arguments or showing off, both historically and digitally.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Balance it so you can only duel players on the same Class/Job you currently are. Done.

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A healer vs healer fight would literally last forever.

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Originally Posted by Vorpal_Spork

A healer vs healer fight would literally last forever.

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That hasn't been my experience with Scholars 1v1ing an OP... If both players do exactly the same thing, sure, that'd suck and go on until one runs out of MP. That doesn't happen though, just because they're on the same Job doesn't mean they're going to do the exact same thing. One can be aggressive, or conservative, one can react faster while the other makes mistakes that cost them the match. Having the same tools =/= you'll do the exact same things.

I'll admit, mixed Jobs 1v1 can be fun in Frontlines, but I simply cannot see that being the case in a duel. You know a duel is happening, you know the other player is coming for you and only you, you know nobody is going to back them, or you, up. You cannot bait them, catch them by surprise, and so on. You lose almost all the edges which allow the less favorable Job to actually turn the tables. It just becomes a version of rock paper scissors.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

All a 1v1 duel prepares you for are 1v1 duels. They don't prepare healers to be focused by more than one person. They don't teach Paladins how to properly cover and protect other characters.

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It could teach paladins to stun when a marauder uses berserk and raging strikes. Or a teach these BLMs that fire > fire > fire > alt tab to forums isn't a good PvP strategy. It's really up to the player to be able to take away useful information.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

What sense is there practicing on a i130 Black Mage against a i80 Dragoon?

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If a player doesn't have enough awareness to not voluntarily put themselves in that situation, or at least be able to recognize it when it happens, then practicing PvP isn't going to work for them. They'd have bigger problems holding them back.

Though, the reason why PvP ilvl sync is garbage (in all situations) is because MMOs are 90% gear progression. Being synced to an ilvl that's lower than myth gear (which we gathered well over a year ago) takes that away.

It can stay in FL where it belongs, so that everyone can keep their equal level playing field mini game for capping tombs. But it needs to go when actual PvP grows or the community will continue to die out, since PvP focused players aren't going to flock to casual content.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Level of player toxicity would be on a very different scale. Taunting, harassment, duel invite spamming...

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Not to discredit you, but this sounds incredibly subjective. SE comes down hard on harassment as it is. A single temp ban for the offending player will more than likely stop it.

So how about this. Want to duel. Your gear is stripped, specific duel gear issued for your class. Your main stats stay the same. Cut down some of the maps and make those the arena's. Items, gear, spells, etc, will spawn randomly when you are near. The item has a timer, uses, or wear until it breaks, as only the old worn out weapons are used for dueling. Make it hunt or be hunted. Kind of Mad Max Thunder Dome style, but a larger area. Sure it could take a while, but it could be a nice change of pace once in a while. Have a little strategy involved instead of straight up mindless face bashing.

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Originally Posted by Layth

But it needs to go when actual PvP grows or the community will continue to die out, since PvP focused players aren't going to flock to casual content.

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iLevel caps don't make content casual. They mean when you win, the loser can't go "We'll your gear was better". What makes PvP casual is the complete lack of any form of long term scoring/leaderboards/tournaments outside that worthless thing on the Lodestone and what players can try to hobble together themselves with the mess that is Wolves' Den. Reason #1 why "We have new Frontlines planned and a Frontlines Roulette for you in 2.5!" doesn't instill much faith in me... They really should be working on Wolves' Den right now, but I guess Frontlines is more popular...

Still, being on equal grounds gear-wise doesn't make something casual. It makes matches fair.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

iLevel caps don't make content casual. They mean when you win, the loser can't go "We'll your gear was better".

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This is entirely false since you can join FL being lower than i80.

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Originally Posted by Layth

This is entirely false since you can join FL being lower than i80.

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That isn't an argument for "iLevel caps make it casual", that's an argument for "Frontlines should have an iLevel requirement", and it really should.

A fair match still =/= a casual one, though.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

That isn't an argument for "iLevel caps make it casual", that's an argument for "Frontlines should have an iLevel requirement", and it really should.

A fair match still =/= a casual one, though.

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The moral change made things fair.

Ilevel sync doesn't make the game fair. In reality it only makes it unfair to people who are over i80 by making that effort null. On top of that it just creates stagnation.

I'm shocked that people don't want gear having an impact in a genre of games that are designed around gear progression.

People here seem to place so little weight on how much ability really affects outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Layth

The moral change made things fair.

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They really didn't. Moral changes just make PvP progression completely redundant. Why get i55, i70, i90, i100 when only i100 PvP matches i110 PvE? Easier to avoid redundant stats in PvP with PvP gear, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by Layth

Ilevel sync doesn't make the game fair. In reality it only makes it unfair to people who are over i80 by making that effort null.

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I'm really starting to doubt you know what fairness is... It simply is not a fair contest to match up an i80 against an i130. Is it unfair that your i130 doesn't do anything? Sure, but that doesn't really effect the fairness of the match now, does it?

Duels have historically always been about fairness. You both pick a pistol, walk equal steps away, turn and shoot. The idea that a duel should be held between two people of vastly different skill sets (Jobs) and with different equipment (iLevel) is utterly absurd. That would be like one contestant wearing full body armor armed with an assault rifle "dueling" someone in the nude armed with a water pistol... It's an utterly absurd suggestion, and hiding behind the excuse that it would be fair because "I earned my assault rifle and body armor" is pathetic at best.

We've already had SEs attempt at gear progression based PvP. It's called Wolves' Den, and it is a complete and utter failure. One of the main reasons people were initially turned off PvP in this game (never to return) was because of the fairness of Wolves' Den matches. If you were outgeared it was very unlikely you'd win, and losing because your opponent grinding gear more simply isn't fun. Individual skill is the only thing that should matter in PvP, not "Who has the better gear/Job". You can cry about your gear being made "worthless" all you like, it doesn't change that fact.

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Originally Posted by Layth

On top of that it just creates stagnation.

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Frontlines is doing perfectly fine, queues can take a bit but I manage to play regularly. Meanwhile Wolves' Den, where gear progression can play a part, is utterly dead. Which causes stagnation again?

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Originally Posted by Layth

I'm shocked that people don't want gear having an impact in a genre of games that are designed around gear progression.

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I PvP for fun, not to obtain gear. Leave that PvE mentality in PvE please. If I wanted a gear treadmill I'd be in Coil instead.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

TDuels have historically always been about fairness. You both pick a pistol, walk equal steps away, turn and shoot.

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I can reach those straws for you, if you'd like.

I was under the impression you were already grasping at straws when you started the whole "It's unfair I'm level synced" spiel.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I was under the impression you were already grasping at straws when you started the whole "It's unfair I'm level synced" spiel.

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If that's all you choose to take away, then that's your choice.

I can create a silly real life scenario comparison in similar logic to yours. It might help you understand where people against the ilvl sync are coming from.

"I'm sorry guys, you can't wear tennis shoes on the court anymore. Everybody has to wear flip flop sandals instead to make it fair for players who don't have shoes."

"But there's a vendor right there handing out shoes for free...all you'd have to do is take the effort to walk over..."

"IT HAS TO BE FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR"

Silly real life scenario? That's how duels actually worked. Two people on equal ground, not two people facing off in a hilariously onesided match. That's how practically all sportsmanship works, in fact. The only difference that matters is personal skill.

Your example certainly is silly though. Vendor handing stuff out for free? I was unaware i130 was free from a vendor. No, the whole point of the iLevel sync is to set the iLevel at a point where it is reasonably easy to obtain such gear for the sake of fairness. i80 is fairly easy to achieve, that's why it is set as the cap.

To continue your ridiculous example though, no cap would be closer to steroid use than tennis shoes. In sports everyone has their uniform, that's their i80. People who use steroids to go beyond i80 are generally not welcomed. I suppose it's unfair that athletes who paid for steroids don't get to compete though, they put extra effort in buying and taking those steroids after all, they should count for something! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

To continue your ridiculous example though, no cap would be closer to steroid use than tennis shoes. In sports everyone has their uniform, that's their i80. People who use steroids to go beyond i80 are generally not welcomed. I suppose it's unfair that athletes who paid for steroids don't get to compete though, they put extra effort in buying and taking those steroids after all, they should count for something! :rolleyes:

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The point was to show you how comparing how real life functions to how a video game should function is silly. You're able to grasp how my example was dumb, but then go on to compare owning 130 gear to steroid abuse.

i100 gear is easier to get than i80 gear. Owning i130 is not illegal. I almost thought I was just being trolled, but I think that this is just how you are.

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Originally Posted by Layth

I almost thought I was just being trolled, but I think that this is just how you are.

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Right back at you. You're the one arguing against a level playing field, after all. Literally the only reason not to want a level playing field in PvP is so you can win because of your gear, whether you want to admit that or not. If you want to put more importance on gear rather than skill in PvP, then I really don't think PvP is for you.

Again, you have your event where gear matters and there is no iLevel cap. It's called Wolves' Den, go ahead and take a guess why it's such an unpopular event. Its initial unpopularity stemmed from gear playing a factor, Morale more than anything (which really was basically just steroid abuse). It's current unpopularity stems from SE trying to save it in the worst possible way. Rank based matchings were put in place to avoid such a one sided gear difference. The i80 cap option for Wolves' Den would actually be great if SE actually gave any indication that it was there.

And yes, i100 gear is easy to obtain these days, you are aware that having i100 automatically means you're at i80 though, right? You are aware that a lower iLevel cap means you have more options for gearing? By all means we should get a higher cap eventually, but the point of the cap is still going to be there. A gear advantage is utter nonsense and only servers to inflate the ego of "veterans" (and win traders). Any true veteran of PvP should already have enough experience to give them a significant advantage, they don't need a gear advantage as well. All a gear advantage does is turn people away from PvP. Again, just look at what happened with Wolves' Den, or you know, ignore history and continue taking examples far to literally.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Level of player toxicity would be on a very different scale. Taunting, harassment, duel invite spamming...

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Have you ever PVPed in this game literally ever?
I mean, good God, it's already exactly like that in regular PVP.
It would be absolutely no worse and there's no reason to think it would be.
Also

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duel invite spamming...

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That's not at all a reason to keep duels out because that is incredibly easy fix.
Character > PVP Profile > Duels > Automatically deny duel invitations

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Originally Posted by Layth

If that's all you choose to take away, then that's your choice.

I can create a silly real life scenario comparison in similar logic to yours. It might help you understand where people against the ilvl sync are coming from.

"I'm sorry guys, you can't wear tennis shoes on the court anymore. Everybody has to wear flip flop sandals instead to make it fair for players who don't have shoes."

"But there's a vendor right there handing out shoes for free...all you'd have to do is take the effort to walk over..."

"IT HAS TO BE FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR"

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This is the worst example by far but really I'm not sure what to expect from somebody who litters their posts with

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I can reach those straws for you, if you'd like.

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I actually think 1v1s would be better than the regular PvP atmosphere, assuming they're server based rather than instanced (please SE, cut down on the instanced content...). I'm sure there would be the odd exception, but obnoxious dickheads tend to weed themselves out in a static community by, well, being obnoxious dickheads. Real shame the only people I can really say "Good Game" to in current PvP are my teammates, I'd like to say it to my opponents as well, but for now I'll have to settle for /Mandervilling them.

Then again, I've not really seen too much toxicity in PvP as is. Worst I've seen was win traders lauding i100 over people, other than that it is solely a matter of, to sum up their point more politely, "You cost us the match", something that isn't even possible in a 1v1 scenario. I'm sure there would be cases of a victor gloating, or a sore loser, but I don't think they'd be anywhere as damaging as what currently goes on. When I see harassment in Wolves' Den or Frontlines, it does perhaps make me reconsider requeuing (mostly because I don't want to end up playing with people who point the finger of blame at everyone but themselves). If I see harassment from a 1v1? I'll just blacklist the fool. Wouldn't even need to be a 1v1 I was a part of. I'm sure we'd see shouts about 1v1s as a result, but 99% of the shouts in this game which aren't FC/PF related are utterly worthless banter anyway. I'd add "1v1 me brah!" to the list of shouts I ignore.

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Originally Posted by Eggnook24

Gold Saucer coliseum battles. Please look forward to it.

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Confirmed? Or just a prediction?