Yoshida did not make this game pay-to-win. The players did. *NOT a cash shop thread*

I'm talking about the groups who are selling clears for gil, not the cash shop items.

Obviously it's possible for gil to be obtained through approved and unapproved non gameplay methods but there are enough threads about that, let's assume here that all gil involved was generated through fair and legitimate gameplay.

Now, this type of interaction is not considered "pay to win" as defined since no real money changes hands. In fact, requiring trading and interaction between different classes is part of the design of nearly every MMO.

So why did I clickbait the topic thread with "pay to win"? Because in all the debates about cash pay to win, which occasionally mention that you can buy clears, it is rarely mentioned who is selling access to thos content, for in-game currency, 100% ToS compliant and mostly accepted by other players. There are by far more ads being reposted every day in PF selling turns and primals than I have ever seen offering EB bracelets. Titan for sale. Leviathan for sale. Turns 1-9 for sale.

Personally, this doesn't bother me. It's the rumors that some players are having to pay for clears to get rid of the 100 soldiery bonus message that seems ridiculous.

You're a pretty good Dragoon. Got i130 gear, high DPS, the daily roulettes are a piece of cake for you. You try to join a static for FCoB though... the "One or more players are new..." bonus message comes up, and you get votekicked!

But... you've got three star crafters, and RNGesus your guardian Byregot has been looking kindly upon you. You find one unspoiled mining node after another, and successfully meld tier IV materia four times in a row! All you have to do now is pay up some gil, and a carry from BCoB to SCoB all the way through FCoB is all yours.

And finally, that shameful bonus will be gone.

Pay Gil to Win!

Oh... I see the sales of Eternal Bond ceremony invitations have started in earnest today.

Because mention "Real life money" and "In game currency" in the same sentence and people just lose their minds. Fact.

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Originally Posted by Kaes

I'm talking about the groups who are selling clears for gil, not the cash shop items.

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Aren't such groups only really around because the developers insisted on a simplistic system for just about everything?

Since beta I've seen hundreds of threads asking for more complexity in class and fight mechanics, and they always get met with the same "That would be too complex for players" style of response. Honestly, when you make a game with very little complexity, it's just begging for people to be carried through it. I think the root of the problem is the developers "Let everyone reach max level really easily" mentality. When you can reach Coil by doing nothing but spamming AoE in FATEs of course you're going to have people who can barely function in endgame content and then look to buy wins...

The problem isn't even always that people can't do the content, it's that they cannot find people willing to even let them even experience it because they've never beaten it before. It's like the job market only looking for people with experience and passing over people with the skills but no experience denying them the chance to even get the experience employers are looking for. Same concept and just as unfair. I'm an ilvl 112 WHM and I can't do static raids because I work shiftwork, so having a set time to meet every week to raid isn't possible for me. And DF and PF both fail so hard to be able to get past Turn 5 because even if they give it a chance, someone bails after 2 wipes, not letting people get any real experience and not getting through.The content needs a close knit group that knows the ins and outs of it to be completed, so for those people that cannot be part of such a group and then random in with players that are looking for things to be easy, and bailing when it's not... It just makes it impossible.

The reason I like this game is because most content is completeable alone or with random groups. The Coils are designed for people looking for a challenge and I accept that, but I really just want to complete it for the story more so than anything, but I don't just want to be "carried". I don't want to give into that paying for carries because I have dreams for my little FC to have a large house and we're making steady progress and are maybe 6million from our goal. Still the player-based economy can be pretty ridiculous.

Agree, paying to get carried through content is pay to win.

1) It promotes lazy players using lazy methods to obtain Gil to pay for clears (aka buying gil from asfdfsd)
2) IF players are just unable to find other players, make your own LS/PF/FC. With how many post they are able to clear to 1-2%, why don't they party up and clear stuff?
3) If gives a false number on players able to clear the content due to being carried for Gil.

The best is why bother playing when you just pay someone else to play the game for you?

Content selling against ToS or riot! :P

you have the choice between "pay to win" and "be good to win"

if you remove #1 and can't do #2 you're still not going to get your clears. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Agree, paying to get carried through content is pay to win.

The best is why bother playing when you just pay someone else to play the game for you?

Content selling against ToS or riot! :P

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Most of the time this statement is subjective, people pay for their subs and therefore, their vision of "why do I bother to play" differs from yours drastically; how you think people should play the game can be different to what they think is the best use of their time and their money.
With that aside, I do think its stupid to pay for carries but I can't really question why they bother to play the game if they pay for a win, because it is not my right and is condescending

Its as Terrini said player greed is the cause,I'll use myself as an example.
I am Stuck on T9 (Had issues before the nerf and even so now 10% echo aint cutting it)I work full time and I am a Full-time College student so I dont always have the time to offer for a Static. I try to make a Progression PF but those can be Hit or miss.
DF is out of the question since everyone likes to ignore mechanics. Shady people try to offer me a carry, which I always decline but they try to charge 5mil Gill or more. Which brings me to my next point.Players who have 5million gil most likely have nothing to do with T9 or carries in general and are doing other things, The"casual" players that they try to market to cant afford such inflated prices and this is where the RMT comes in and try to sell Gil to those players.The Greed of players is what is poisoning the community.

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Originally Posted by Khiry

try to charge 5mil Gill or more.

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Transfer to gilgamesh and I'll sell you a clear for 3mil. ;D

After failing to complete T5 for almost 1/2 a year I put some effort into my crafters and SBonding. I bought a T5 carry.

I wasn't proud of it but I just couldn't stand the shame of still not having it completed. I am not a bad player because I regularly farm Levi and Ramuh Ex and am working on Shiva Ex.

I'm just shy and have trouble making friends. :(

http://media.giphy.com/media/NPUqgb8UE2iw8/giphy.gif
http://media.giphy.com/media/uCeC6zBklAwgM/giphy.gif

I just need some friends that are as passionate as me.

This is often why I push for storymode to NOT include Raids, or to have a solo mode of all content where you have npcs that fill out your party.
Easy:
Light Party
Option to bring a friend or 3. NPCs will fill the remaining slots.
Reward the current Tomes for non current gear. (Solidarity etc) Will chance of out of date gear to drop.

List it via Duty Finder:
Ex: The Coil of Bahamut Turn 1 (Story)
Crystal Tower (Story)

This way folks can bare minimum see the storyline without getting carried, paying for a clear, and "inconveniencing" players who have already cleared.
They can farm their glamour armor, and normal modes, hard modes, & etc remain untouched.

It's less 'pay to win' and more 'pay to catch up so you can go into a static'. T9 requires a serious, skilled group, and putting together one of those who are willing to commit to a raid schedule when 90% of serious, skilled groups are trying to down T13 is a pipe dream. It's 2.2 T5 all over again, basically.

The other option is suffering through DF so you can suffer through PF - if your server is even willing to join a progress/learn group. It's a process that can take weeks to months depending on your luck, at which point you're gonna have to buy your FCOB wins to join the only FCOB groups that fill.

But why do any of that when you can just craft/convert/marriage band up 5 million gil and purchase a run? Well, maybe you're one of the few who wants to actually attempt to execute the content, but you're a stark minority on most servers - so get used to AFKing in PF while you pray a straggler static picks you up and actually stays cohesive in the process.

It's not really the sellers' fault, though they're economically motivated to lobby for the status quo. It's the shoddy loot and raid progression design FFXIV's endgame is plagued with.

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Originally Posted by Krr

It's less 'pay to win' and more 'pay to catch up so you can go into a static'.

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Any decent static would help the replacement or member catch up to start progressing. One of our members changed to NIN for FCoB, so we farmed SCoB for NIN drops.

If you take in a replacement or a member for a static knowing what state they are in progression wise and expect them to magically catch up solo then you arent a team player. Also doing earlier content to help them catch up gives you practice in synergy with the new player/s.

Try again.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Any decent static would help the replacement or member catch up to start progressing.

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Any static that's recruiting from outside of an exclusive social clique is going to demand experience in the current content they're doing. It doesn't matter what you think a 'decent' static is, or what your semi-casual friends FC does, that's the common practice.

Half-competent FCOB statics don't do T9 carries. They expect you to have done T9, with gil or otherwise. They expect you to have been PF practicing T10, T11, and possibly even T12, and if they're on T13, they'll scoop up someone who was with another static doing T13, not you. This isn't necessarily because 'T9 makes you good' but because 'doing our content and having seen our content makes us less likely to destabilize trying to reteach someone'.

Do you think Collision is out there getting world first by recruiting players still stuck on T5? Hell naw.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the sentiment, but it doesn't match the existing reality of how the game works.

I had a feeling it wasn't my fault that I wasn't clearing Titan. I just had a gut feeling. So a group on Lamia has been shouting for "free" Titan Ex clears - then can do it with 7 people, carry style, but this way they get a newbie bonus on top of their pony farm. (The only rule was No Lotting On Ponies. That's fair.) So I went in, and I stayed ALIVE and ON THE PLATFORM until he was down to the last 5%. One of the "carry" team fell off at 30%. Amazing what happens when you are allowed to join a party with people who know what the heck they're doing.

That said, I'd considered just paying the durn million gil for the Pay To Win clear, because I enjoy crafting and have a nice little nest egg with nothing to spend it on til I hit the next stage in my relic.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Any static that's recruiting from outside of an exclusive social clique is going to demand experience in the current content they're doing. It doesn't matter what you think a 'decent' static is, or what your semi-casual friends FC does, that's the common practice.

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And you don't think they would notice if someone pays to get carried through content that they don't know the content?

Random person joins a raid group demanding clear experience of turn 9. Random person paid to get carried through t9, in fact suicided in the wall to not wipe the party due to inexperience. As you know, if you have no clue for placing golem meteors, wipe inc.
The statics you are talking about will recruit in house from known and proven players first, not randoms in PF so, honestly that argument is moot. The ones in PF are not the top 1% that push for world first.
The world first raid FCs have synergy between players from constant practice and playing together, that takes time to develop. Why do you think it is not always the same FC which gets world firsts in MMOs? Takes time, practice and dedication to learning to a certain level of efficiency to even have a chance of joining the top 1% statics, having to pay for wins proves you don't. The members are expected to and do go that extra mile. Something the majority would never to attain to.

From a lot of experience in DF (I last used it on my alt to get some experience healing turn 5 and 6) the ones that fail most on mechanics are teh ones to play the blame game the hardest instead of looking at their own mistakes their fragile ego automatically places the blame on anyone else except themselves (also they are usually the ones to ragequit first XD ). Players that never improve that can go on to pay for wins. So they never learn and improve because they did not go through the learning and self improvement of their ability to play that learning and clearing the legit way gives.

FCoB was cleared so fast because 90% of the mechanics are the same as what we have dealt with before. Biggest hurdle was the gear check which was mitigated with fully melded ilvl 110 gear.

I don't think it is necessarily unfair or cheating, even, to have people pay hard-earned gil for carries.

It lets people play DoH/DoL that they enjoy while still catching up for the latest content for whatever the reason (read: Alisaie's butt looks nice).

It also makes a lot of sense RPwise to have a spoiled rich brat buying his way into 'fame'. Isn't it a very reasonable (if not common) fantasy trope?

Moot point really. No offense.

SE didn't create the game as an verbal abuse simulator, yet we have some players putting down others they deem "unworthy".

The issues is whether SE is "enabling" such undesirable behavior.

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

I don't think it is necessarily unfair or cheating, even, to have people pay hard-earned gil for carries.

It lets people play DoH/DoL that they enjoy while still catching up for the latest content for whatever the reason (read: Alisaie's butt looks nice).

It also makes a lot of sense RPwise to have a spoiled rich brat buying his way into 'fame'. Isn't it a very reasonable (if not common) fantasy trope?

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It's also a common fantasy trope for someone to become immensely powerful and evil, randomly killing as he/she see fit, looting and pillaging as he/she desired - i.e. the evil overlord.

Should SE allow such a "very reasonable (if not common) fantasy trope"?

Mercing content has been done in every MMO since the dawn of... whenever the first MMO was.

Players aren't magically gifted the ability of a group to clear content then sell it, that takes time and effort. No, putting up a PF and hoping to get lucky with a clear isn't what they did. You must be proactive in meeting people and maybe even build a group yourself!

Also, the purpose of gil is to save time. Want a 4* item? Well you can either buy it off market, or you can painstakingly level every DoH/DoL to 50 and work your way up to be able to make the item which requires both raw stats from gear and practice and experience with how crafting works. Want a boss clear? Pay for it, or work on networking and building relationships with people who are capable of clearing content.

This isn't going to go away, ever. And it is not wrong in any way either. This is an MMO, social networking is part of the game and is required to clear content that has a time investment to learn.

Thread title me laugh and reminded me of "guns don't kill people, rappers do" xd

I think it's a bit suspicious that a pretty expensive relic upgrade ( for anyone not actively making gil ) comes right at the same time as a legit irl--->gil converter gets implemented. I call BS on what was intended too btw....

This thread and it's replies clearly shows that players are capable of twisting facts into the way they want it to be interpreted.

OP: "Pay gils to win is also considered pay-2-win".

Multiple replies:
- "It's less 'pay to win' and more 'pay to catch up so you can go into a static". (sorry, but your words is suitable for my example).
- Mercing content has been done in every MMO since the dawn of... whenever the first MMO was.
- I don't think it is necessarily unfair or cheating, even, to have people pay hard-earned gil for carries.

Right, so this has been around since start of MMO and it's not unfair or cheating but look!! The cash-shop which we accepted and agreed in the ToS is NOT OKAY and it clearly gives an UNFAIR advantage to rich players. *Proceeds to make multiple threads whining and complaining about it*.

I lol-ed.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Mercing content has been done in every MMO since the dawn of... whenever the first MMO was.

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Well explain then how I have never seen it before FFXIV.

I've been MMOing since EQ1 launch, and ive never seen run sellers before this. EQ1 and 2, UO online, DaoC, WoW vanilla (quit after first xpac), Lotro, AoC just to name a few.

Comparing crafted items to clearing content is two totally different things and you should feel bad trying to compare and justify it with it. Crafted gear is designed in a way to be crafed and sold, why it will never be the highest tier. Dropped gear is designed to be won from defeating the content.

1) It gives a false metric to SE on the number of players able to clear it. If it falls into their expected paramaters of clearing, then it affects content design.
2) It puts players who are unprepared for harder content into the pool of those who are causing problems. What you learn by clearing content legit prepares you for higher tier content due to the practice and experience.
3) Why do the content when you don't want to do the content? Being carried is not doing the content.

SE should either design content so it is impossible to carry a dead weight, or make an easy mode without loot so those who fail at the content can still do it while killing off any reasons or ability to content sell, before you say, yes, Ive been offered spots in sell teams, I told em to go away (not as politely as that tho).

Never been part of a sell team and still have millions of gil sitting on retainers doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Thread title me laugh and reminded me of "guns don't kill people, rappers do" xd

I think it's a bit suspicious that a pretty expensive relic upgrade ( for anyone not actively making gil ) comes right at the same time as a legit irl--->gil converter gets implemented. I call BS on what was intended too btw....

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Well, grats to SE I suppose.

All the "trust" they have rebuild with 2.0, a good part of it has gone down the drain. LOL

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

This thread and it's replies clearly shows that players are capable of twisting facts into the way they want it to be interpreted.

OP: "Pay gils to win is also considered pay-2-win".

Multiple replies:
- "It's less 'pay to win' and more 'pay to catch up so you can go into a static". (sorry, but your words is suitable for my example).
- Mercing content has been done in every MMO since the dawn of... whenever the first MMO was.
- I don't think it is necessarily unfair or cheating, even, to have people pay hard-earned gil for carries.

Right, so this has been around since start of MMO and it's not unfair or cheating but look!! The cash-shop which we accepted and agreed in the ToS is NOT OKAY and it clearly gives an UNFAIR advantage to rich players. *Proceeds to make multiple threads whining and complaining about it*.

I lol-ed.

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Just going to quote this,

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The most important concept in this paper is that it's not just how you sell your product, but what part of your product you sell. A great part of the attraction of virtual worlds is that participants see them as a Grand Meritocracy, as opposed to the real world, which can often seem arbitrary and unfair. As Jane McGonigal points out, there is no unemployment in virtual space. Everyone has opportunities. Absolute care must be taken in the design of your virtual world to maintain this perception -- whether you consider it real or illusion is irrelevant.

Selling the game objectives in your world makes your game unfair and just reminds your customers of the inequities of the world they are trying to escape from. They literally won't buy this. Sell them opportunity, in the form of content, and they will buy up that opportunity with an enthusiasm that will shock you.

- http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/17...on_.php?page=4

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Well explain then how I have never seen it before FFXIV.

I've been MMOing since EQ1 launch, and ive never seen run sellers before this. EQ1 and 2, UO online, DaoC, WoW vanilla (quit after first xpac), Lotro, AoC just to name a few.

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It is absolutely done in WoW.

So tell me then. When you have a serious plumbing issue, do you do it yourself or call someone who knows what they are doing? It's the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

SE should either design content so it is impossible to carry a dead weight

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Content is designed so that average players who put time into it and practice with a group will be able to clear it even if they make mistakes. What you propose here is to significantly raise the bar required to clear. It also means you can't help your friends if they are bad.

It's done in WoW, so it's good for this MMO.

I think most people that played 1.0, did not care for another WoW clone, or it's community if I remember reading the forums correctly.

But whatever floats your gil boats. I actually earn mine in game, but whatever like I said.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

SE should either design content so it is impossible to carry a dead weight

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Are you kidding me? It's already hard enough to find competent parties for endgame content. Why on earth would you want to make that WORSE?

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Just going to quote this,

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Except that there aren't any game objectives being sold in the cash-shop. Nice try.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Except that there aren't any game objectives being sold in the cash-shop. Nice try.

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Lets see,

Minions : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Mounts : Earnable in game, by clearing Primal EX, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Dyes : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, crafting your own, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.

I mean its pay to win, but not for the reasons this guy says.
Penta melded IVs in left side 110 gear helped people finish first this tier. This would cost tens - hundreds of millions (for a full group) of gil to pull off.
While It is likely none of the players directly bought gil, It would be a safe bet people who bought crafts/gathers/ and whom they sold runs to did.
In the future these same/new groups will have made gil directly or indirectly off the people selling bracelets.

Really this could be avoided by not adding competitive meld-able / or gil buy able gear for progression content.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Lets see,

Minions : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Mounts : Earnable in game, by clearing Primal EX, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Dyes : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, crafting your own, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.

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Pretty sure that's personal objective, also pretty sure it is not Pay-2-Win. Like in many other threads, it has been stated it's just extra fluff/optional vanities. People need to stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Pretty sure that's personal objective, also pretty sure it is not Pay-2-Win. Like in many other threads, it has been stated it's just extra fluff/optional vanities. People need to stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

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And we are back to this line of argument ... LOL

Everything in this game is a "personal objective". You don't have to get that Shiva iLv 115 weapon. So ... it's OK to sell it on the cash shop?

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

And we are back to this line of argument ... LOL

Everything in this game is a "personal objective". You don't have to get that Shiva iLv 115 weapon. So ... it's OK to sell it on the cash shop?

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And also the same argument by cash-shop haters and also applying the same tactic of making a mountain out of a molehill. Is any weapon being sold in the cash shop? Any items which gives players stats at all? Any extra movespeed? You cash shop haters are just abusing the word objective just because you are not willing to shell out that bit of cash to get some fluff which you want that is behind the cash shop.

Seriously, is any dungeon gated by cash shop? Any weapons or gears with stats? They selling diamond dust/UAT/Sand/Oil? All these posts and threads makes it like you want that mount, minion and dyes so darn badly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

And also the same argument by cash-shop haters and also applying the same tactic of making a mountain out of a molehill. Is any weapon being sold in the cash shop? Any items which gives players stats at all? Any extra movespeed? You cash shop haters are just abusing the word objective just because you are not willing to shell out that bit of cash to get some fluff which you want that is behind the cash shop.

Seriously, is any dungeon gated by cash shop? Any weapons or gears with stats? They selling diamond dust/UAT/Sand/Oil? All these posts and threads makes it like you want that mount, minion and dyes so darn badly.

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Let's get this straight. You are OK with selling of weapons in the cash shop? Because by your line of argument, this is perfectly acceptable.

True they have not done so. But you are OK with it if they did? Yes?

Me and my Fc Dango Daikazoku have always stood against this particular activity by some FC's on Pheonix. When Titan clear were big just to annoy some of the other big FC's and to cut into their profits we would "sell" clears for 1 gil. We never asked a player to walk into a wall and would explain the fight as best we could. We still do these kinds of runs but no where near as frequent, most of us just don't have the same amount time. However come to Pheonix join Dango if you find this behaviour abhorant and we'll run more like it and show the community how to be good people instead of money grubbing ass holes.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Let's get this straight. You are OK with selling of weapons in the cash shop? Because by your line of argument, this is perfectly acceptable.

True they have not done so. But you are OK with it if they did? Yes?

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Seems like you have an uncanny interest to derail topics by means of exaggeration. Please re-read my post which you have quoted and find exactly which part of my argument which says it's perfectly acceptable. Should be easy to find right? since you're so sure that according to my argument, it's perfectly acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Aren't such groups only really around because the developers insisted on a simplistic system for just about everything?

Since beta I've seen hundreds of threads asking for more complexity in class and fight mechanics, and they always get met with the same "That would be too complex for players" style of response. Honestly, when you make a game with very little complexity, it's just begging for people to be carried through it. I think the root of the problem is the developers "Let everyone reach max level really easily" mentality. When you can reach Coil by doing nothing but spamming AoE in FATEs of course you're going to have people who can barely function in endgame content and then look to buy wins...

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sadly, its not just the simplicity, its also the fact most people cannot play the game reliably with their connection/pc for one reason or another (no, i do not intend to discuss this topic at length) and this causes them unable to do certain content normally. part of it is SEs fault for making it very connection based. i also want to take a second to blame the community, very few people are willing to join training parties and help people get past content, and once the content becomes dated, well we all know what that means for newer players.

I don't like these topics, but after reading through, I feel like I have to ask. If the player makes it their primary objective to collect every single minion in the game, why would they care about other peoples objectives? Don't get me wrong, I'm merely curious. If winning the game differs from player to player, why call it pay-to-win when the objectives of the game are different between players?

Is the definition of pay-to-win actually means that it is something you cannot earn yourself, does it stand for other players progressing into something you don't care about, or is it defined as something to which you are forced into using real money? Because, in my point of view, pay-to-win is something you are forced into doing to get the best enjoyment out of it. If you can't enjoy the game without needing to rely, complain, or acknowledge the existence of the Cash Shop, then what's the point of playing?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

snip-

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So by your point of argument, everything should be made available for free? Just because your term of "winning" is collecting stuff?" Isn't that entitlement? "Oh, something I like is in the cash shop. I better pull out my "terms" of "winning" so I can convince that it should be made free.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Seems like you have an uncanny interest to derail topics by means of exaggeration. Please re-read my post which you have quoted and find exactly which part of my argument which says it's perfectly acceptable. Should be easy to find right? since you're so sure that according to my argument, it's perfectly acceptable.

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Let's recap your argument,

You claim that the stuff in the cash shop is "OK" because it's "fluff personal objectives". I argued that everything in this game is technically "fluff personal objectives" and gave an example of a Shiva weapon, which you don't really need to have, and asked if it's OK for that to be in the cash shop.

You then went off on a tangent asking rhetorical questions such as "Are they selling weapons now?" which is beside the point. ("uncanny interest to derail topics" heh. Talk about pot calling kettle black. :rolleyes:)

You have yet to directly answer my question, "Is it acceptable to sell an iLv 115 Shiva weapon on the cash shop?".

By simple logical extrapolation of your past lines of argument, the answer is "yes" - it is after all a "fluff personal objective". But since you claim otherwise, do tell, "Why not?". It is after all "optional fluff".

So lets stop beating around the bush. Is it or is it not OK to sell an iLV 115 Shiva weapon on the cash shop? Yes or no? If no, why not?

Why do you all keep bringing up paying Gil to get through the game to pay to win.
This has been going on since FFXI people do mercenary work and help you through the fight.

I have never done it but it did not effect FFXI in any shape or form and it wont effect this game.
Sure they are Lazy they are the same players who use game shark and cheats in real life cause game is too hard.

Though its not hurting you, you still play the game and the chances of you bumping into those people are very very slim.
So basically when you ask for a craft to be done and you are paying them for their services its the same thing because they are too lazy to craft but again has nothing to do with you.

It went from complaining about cash shop to this?

Even other games do it not just this one.