so i go to the patch notes look at the new items implemented and what do i see?
all the new relic upgrades are i125...
i125...
so basically because i didn't like the stats on the AIM bow (in fact i absolutely despise them) i am now FORCED to use the goddamned AIM bow because SE is trying to make some snobby hardcore peeps happy that the relic wep isn't the same ilvl as the AIM shit?
i mean sure you can say it "relic is for casual players it shouldn't be there to give them a really good piece of equipment" and you know what i say to that? go clear T13 and get your raid wep that way. the only difference between the AIM weps and the relic is unlike the relic you need to have a party (usually a static) who can actually make it to T12 and clear (mine actually disbanded before we all cleared T9 so lucky bloody me).
so now i have absolutely 0 choice in what wep i get to use when i get to endgame it's either the AIM bow or the dreadwyrm bow if RNG would be so kind.
personally that seems like the dumbest decision on the face of the earth. what is the point of limiting the choices you have to possibly better equip yourself for final coil? i went for the novus/nexus weapon purely because the stats on the Rosenbogen sucked, i didn't want skill speed on my bard (though SE seems to think that it's an amazing stat for a class with no SS buffing ability like nin or mnk) and i would rather have had some accuracy and Det but now i am forced to take the bow with Skill speed AND Determination, so not only am i losing Accuracy and my main stat Crit i am also backed into a corner since now i have so much added pressure to outroll the pug groups i'll need to suffer through on FCoB in T11 because SE wanted to make the 'casual wep' worse than the 'raid wep' that the 'hardcores' are getting.
and for those of you who will undoubtedly agree that the relic is a casual method of getting a good wep.
1) most of the AIM weps have secondary stats that suck and i would prefer not being forced to use a wep purely because of the wep damage, i already agree with the coil wep being the best purely because that's in good game design but i don't agree with relic wep getting left out because it doesn't involve the prerequisite of having a party that isn't bad and people who can work together.
2) if you consider the casual player does their relic casually, working on it say 3 hours a day then depending on how lucky they are it can take them anywhere between 3 weeks to 3 months just from zenith to novus. it's 16 hours and 33 mins if you spam WW and garuda hard on bonus provided each run is 30 seconds and 2 mins respectively. the amount of time you could spend getting your AIM wep provided your static can clear through T12 is 3 weeks minimum to about 2 month in total and that's it.
please also note that the amount of time to gt the next relic has just increased and also keep in mind that unless you have 7 people who can raid 24/7 you will most likely raid 3 hours in total and that's just assuming you're progressing. i did T10 3 times and understood every mechanic and how to do them but i struggle to get a good group every week so if you remove the group problem there really isn't much of an issue till you hit about T12 and even then you're hardcore players it should be nothing to you.
in summary of that paragraph you actually spend longer doing relic on average than you do getting AIM wep except the difference being you can get relic solo.
if you want to argue that you spend more time raiding than i assume you hurt those times i just put up and if you raid less than that you're literally just bringing in your own personal exhaustion time for endgame content. i could just go with a top end raid group and just say it's 3 weeks only but i gave the benefit of the doubt.
frankly i don't want SE to make relic 135 that would honestly suck because people that can clear t13 deserve the best wep but just because i don't have a group of people (who don't suck) i can get to help me get a weapon for myself (that has terrible secondary stats) i need to be punished?
sorry if this is in the wrong spot or against the rules or whatever but i'm honestly tired of being screwed over by SE because the Hardcore crowd that clearly doesn't understand that most the hardcore people in 2.38 were using relic wep want the relic weps to not be an option because some people aren't lucky enough to have other people they can have around to help.
So the zodiac upgrades... (kind of ranty post)
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12-09-2014, 07:06 PMlugiaXDSo the zodiac upgrades... (kind of ranty post)
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12-09-2014, 07:30 PMMerle
Nexus is 115. With this step of the relic it'll be 125. Then, on 2.5 patch they'll be a new "last" step and the relic will be 135, like the one from T13. That way everyone will be able to start the expansion with a 135 weapon
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12-09-2014, 07:32 PMTupsiYour entire post was an attack on the hardcore community and you call them snobby..?Quote:
Originally Posted by lugiaXD
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12-09-2014, 07:34 PMNestamaThat's if people can be bothered to spam dungeons over and over to the point of being sick of them (more so than they already may be. Like I am. I only do one dungeon and Primal a day, ask if static is doing anything and if they say no, then I log-out) before getting their Zodiac. At best, most players will be sticking with the i130 Ironworks weapon on Expansion day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merle
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12-09-2014, 09:31 PMSessureaThis is not true. I'm casual, taking my time working on t10, and these relic quests scare the shit out of me. Any1 doing these relic quests are in my eyes hardcore as it gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by lugiaXD
The ff14 community definition of hardcore confuses me a lot....
edit@ nevermind, I thought it was a rant on "casual players" getting good weapons. In fact I'm not sure what the point of the post was =/ -
12-09-2014, 09:47 PMNorthernLadMSP
You're completely clueless if you think the insane amount of time, patience and Gil needed to get a Nexus is "casual."
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12-09-2014, 10:00 PMSeoki/threadQuote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
/10characters -
12-09-2014, 10:19 PMLaylaTsarraIt's far from casual. It's a lot of time, gil and effort. I should know I have two and am collecting light for a 3rd. At least is doesn't require a group of 8 players to get them.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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12-09-2014, 10:27 PMCGMidlanderEven the quest dialogues seem to poke fun at how masochistic the player is for continuing the relic line lolQuote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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12-10-2014, 01:23 AM314159265358979323846264338327
They're easy to get. Time consuming, yes. Difficult? No. Therefore, they are casual weapons.
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12-10-2014, 01:28 AMSekhmetMCasual doesn't mean easy. It just means you don't play the game as often as hardcore players.Quote:
Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327
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12-10-2014, 01:30 AMNorthernLadMSPWhatever you say. I know plenty of raiders doing FCOB that wouldn't touch the insane relic quest with a ten foot pole.Quote:
Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327
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12-10-2014, 01:35 AMAndevomGive casual players enough time, they can get through all the coils. So yeah, it being time consuming kinda pulls it away from being casual friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327
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12-10-2014, 01:37 AMXine
Personally don't see how anyone is forced to do anything. I'm with you in the fact that I don't have a static and mine disbanded before they cleared t9 (they couldn't even handle t7, I cleared t7 and t8 without them in PUGs), so I don't have AIM or Dreadwyrm weapons as an option, Zodiac/Relic is my only option if I want a better weapon. Before anyone makes a mention of Shiva EX being easier/faster, I have a Nexus with Crit/Det maxed already. But I don't see how ANY content in this game is forced on anyone, literally everything in this game, from lv1 to lv50 and beyond, is optional. You can pay for the subscription, and login, do nothing, and thats your gaming experience. No one is ever forced to do anything in this game, people need to stop thinking someone is holding a loaded gun to the back of their heads saying "do this or I'm going to pull the trigger" because this is not happening.... "Only option" does not = "Forced".
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12-10-2014, 01:39 AMFated^ Sums it up pretty well and I'm one of them. It's almost like a little slice of old school Korean MMORPGs and FFXI rolled together in one.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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12-10-2014, 01:42 AMPrototype909Why would they, if they can clear Coil they don't need to waste time pursuing Relic - that's the entire point. If you aren't doing Coil you probably have a lot of free time assuming you are still playing the game often, that's why it's a grind. You're not sinking X amount of hours into learning/clearing content, you're sinking X amount of hours into facerolling through lesser content and hoping for RNG to work out. It's a fair trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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12-10-2014, 01:46 AMFynlarI can see why it confuses you, because you don't seem to understand that "casual" and "3rd coil" don't really belong in the same sentence. Anyone making any sort of headway into 3rd coil (and not just buying/leeching a win or whatever) is no casual player in my book.Quote:
This is not true. I'm casual, taking my time working on t10, and these relic quests scare the shit out of me. Any1 doing these relic quests are in my eyes hardcore as it gets.
The ff14 community definition of hardcore confuses me a lot....
For me personally, nothing about this quest feels particularly bad, whereas even 2nd coil is scary as shit for me, let alone 3rd. Yes, it's a lot of work. But not one aspect of it thus far has been particularly difficult, which is what makes it casual-friendly. -
12-10-2014, 01:46 AMEardstapaLet's use your logic in another argument. Final coil weapons are easy to get. Difficult? Only to find a competent static. Time consuming? Sure. Therefore, they are just as casual. And if we go to the lodestone bull, remember, some of us are not fortunate enough to join statics due to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327
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12-10-2014, 01:46 AMTupsiIncorrect - In XI I at least benefited from working on Relic/Mythic/Empyrean because the content you had to do for it actually progressed your character in the same sitting - In XIV, I gain -zero- benefit from spamming Fates, low level dungeons, waiting 2-5 hour+ Fate spawns that's no different from your basic FATE and then spamming maps and more dungeons that serve no purpose to my progression for a piece of alexandrite. At least with XI Relic, I did Dynamis and gained gear that's useful (at the time) and had the option of selling currency I didn't need and even earned a refund to pass off to a friend or make 20-30mil+. With Mythics I gained Nyzul/Einherjar gear and ZNM gear. With Empyrean I gained my much used Empyrean Armor sets until Adoulin released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fated
With XIV...yeah it's more Korean style than anything. -
12-10-2014, 01:49 AMEardstapaThis right here is the sad, unfortunate truth. Of course, I am betting someone will argue that you're gaining Poetics for running dungeons! ... Not really the same thing. XI relics were fun, despite lockouts in certain content for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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12-10-2014, 01:49 AMPriya
Relics are for non-raiders. Whether they're considered "casual" or "hardcore" is going to be in the eye of the beholder no matter how you slice it. The definition is really fluid in the FF community. Using "non-raider" offers up less points of contention while still being accurate (i.e. no consistent raiding is required to obtain a relic). On that note, if you want a raid tier weapon, then raid.
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12-10-2014, 01:55 AMArkAurelius
While I'm not as hardcore as all those raiders who can get to do FCoB on a constant basis, I prefer the Relic weapon.
And hey, if I ever get the FCoB wep/shield, least I got Excalibur and Aegis for vanity XD -
12-10-2014, 02:02 AMPrototype909I dunno if I'd say they were fun (The grind was still unreal), but they were "Profitable and allowed you to pursue multiple gear milestones at once" would probably be a better phrasing imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eardstapa
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12-10-2014, 02:09 AMEardstapaI'd say they were fun merely due to the fact players actually wanted to work together, where as in this game it's literally... If you don't have a static, or people who want to play with you in your FC, you're quite literally, SOL. Because then the time factor soars... Where as in XI it wasn't too hard to find people, but God help you if you screwed someone over after they helped you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Prototype909
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12-10-2014, 02:10 AMNorthernLadMSP
Yep, in this game, it's either you are lucky to have a static doing end-game or you're filthy rich and can invest millions in a relic. The people who don't have either are SOL.
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12-10-2014, 02:12 AMXatshHardcore =/= Hard Content. Hardcore is a combination of difficulty and time required to get the reward. Example Relics in XI were extreme hardcore with less then 2% of the population having one... but they were faceroll easy to get in terms of content difficulty just took ages (usually 2+ yrs) and a fortune of 30+ ppls gils (200mill + gil, about 2billion in XIV value if you were to convert it).Quote:
Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327
The time constraint of the relics makes them hardcore content. It would be more difficult for a person to start a relic now then it would be for them to get a upgraded I130 weapon from final coil.
This is the problems with relics... the time required to obtain one is simply not worth the reward. -
12-10-2014, 02:13 AMSessureaEven if your clearing coil, you got rngesus working his tricks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prototype909
I will happily use 115 shiva bow until I either get ironworks weap from coil/ct3. And really, it's not that bad to just wait for the easier options, coz let's face it, ff is like 90% mechanics, 10% dps check anyways? Relic can just.....yh. -
12-10-2014, 02:17 AMPrototype909This actually -is- a pretty big underlying problem that I don't think anyone really brings up. People who have started playing the game recently have basically no incentive to begin a relic because even the earlier steps (Animus, Novus in particular) require a big time and money sink. New players can save time by just getting the 1000x more easily accessible soldiery weapon ASAP and then they don't have the money to purchase the materia necessary (Even assuming it sticks the first time, which it won't).Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
The entire quest line is obviously catered towards players who have been keeping up to speed with the releases of the updates to it, but at the same time people who are just starting out and pursuing a relic are basically playing an extremely lengthy catch-up game. Dunno why you'd even bother with a relic in that case. -
12-10-2014, 02:17 AMAtomniumWrong, relics were designed for midcore players aiming to continue they path through the last coil tier, but to me it was a design error to actually segregate them in the second place behind allagan weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by lugiaXD
I would have preferred to see them mandatory to actually beat the best coil tier Boss :p Think about it, they are our only piece of equipment with an horizontal progression.
This is true, we have reached a point where the relics are meant for a midcore playerbase that could even lead to a legendary weapon quest-line in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
I really hope that relics become the "ultimate holy grail" with all of the tasks you have to achieve, at a point the owner will have to defeat the strongest tasks in the game to own one (Like Killing Bahamut, 3.0 raid bosses and whatnot).
Oh and btw :
Wrong, SE is just respecting the Final Fantasy legacy by introducing different and complex side-quests, while respecting their good and bad 2.0 ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by lugiaXD
http://www.plebs.co.za/images/snob2.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by lugiaXD
Good Sir or Lady, I have no idea what you are talking about, uhuhuh. -
12-10-2014, 02:20 AMSpecialKKI agree. I got behind on this due to ATMA drops (I also took a break right before ATMA came out, and came back when UATs were available). At this point, I'm not even sure I want to go through with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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12-10-2014, 02:23 AMEardstapa
@Atom; I was actually making a joke with one of my FC buddies that this stage of relic would require you to beat Turn 1-13, no echo, in one sitting. Any wipe would reset the progress... Would be amusing, to say the least.
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12-10-2014, 02:40 AMAtomniumSound HARSH! But funny too xD but hey, why not, probably a bit soonish to see this for relics though :) it is getting progressive with dificulty level. 3.0 Maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eardstapa
(To be honest anything but no more ugly gils grind please, kind of lame to say the least). -
12-10-2014, 02:57 AMKenji1134
In retrospect, it is kind of "odd" for a game which touted being able to play every class on one character to then come up with a very long, tedious questline like the Relic Quests, which is effectively reset for each class.
What would make "sense" is the following.
- Instead of "doing" things to improve A weapon, we "learn" how to improve THE weapons.
- So you do the initial Relic quest for every class.
- Then you get some tomestone items (900 tomes worth) to upgrade to Zenith. This is true for every weapon.
- Then the quest to get 12 Atmas for the Atma upgrade "process". Subsequent relics require a DIFFERENT quests which requires you to clear 10 fates in each of the Atma zone.
- Then the 9 Animus books. Subsequent relics require 3 books total... Pick 3, done, since you "learned" how to do these upgrade the first time.
- For Novus, we do the same 75 Alexandrite and materia process. Subsequent relics require you to bring 25 Alexandrite to the guy who sells the scrolls, no materia requirements. 25 Alex, set your stats, done.
- For Nexus you do the 2K light farm. Subsequent relics require 200 Light, at most.
The idea is that you, the "character" does the quest to get the relic item itself. Then for every relic after the first, you APPLY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE to GREATLY speed up the process of obtaining Nexus. -
12-10-2014, 08:26 AMlugiaXD
just so people are on the same page here.
the point of my rant is basically this, i am currently progressing through final coil. i started playing the game in april (ps4 release) and when i hit 50 i started relic which was in late april.
the whole entire reason i did that was because at that time i couldn't get through coil without a good/semi decent weapon so i decided to work on relic and before i got animus novus came out so halfway through novus i got animus and then i worked on animus while i cleared through T5 and finally started SCoB.
i got novus about 2 weeks before nexus because sadly i don't level crafters and gatherers so getting money was a huge issue.
in short that in total is about 4-5 months of progressing through relic/coil however since i'm not an imbecile i could clear through coil turns in about a week, (t6 took me about 2 weeks before i got a good party and then i got a static so i cleared through both t7 and t8 within 2 weeks.) which means that i could in effect get a tomestone wep and i had been saving sold that would be 3-4 weeks before i got a new "better" wep. meaning most the time i spent playing the game when i wasn't progressing was spent on relic. that's about 4 months of grind right there because i would assume the average player is about as broke as i was since i mained a dps at the time.
in other words i did play the catch up game purely because being able to customise the stats on my relic was something i severely wanted. it would mean barrin t9 weps i could have something that was/is the best possible wep i could get.
my problem is: SE treats this grind as if it is purely for casual players even though a lot of the smart hardcore players choose relic over the other weps because it's the better choice at novus and nexus.
but now with this upgrade what's the point of working for the relic? get a 125 wep? sure that's good for people who aren't on fcob but what about the people that are there? would a 130 wep really have been that game breaking?
if i can get a static together and clear through fcob up to and including t12 in 3 weeks but i can't get my relic wep without at least twice that amount in terms of useless grinding and still get rewarded less because i'm the "casual" player really rubs me the wrong way.