Warriors & Paladin MT's

Let me start off by first saying I\\'m not professional world first server downs or the guy who says warriors or paladins are better at Mt then the other. However, how can a paladin call himself MT if I as a warrior can pull hate off of him with just a simple 3 skill rotation? Shouldn\\'t MT hold aggro? Example I\\'m in ST and there is this paladin who keeps spamming how he wants to MT ok fine right I turn off def. And yet I STILL pull aggro off of him. He then claims I was focusing on the boss and need to watch my aggro table.....really dude. I mean come on dude am I looking at this wrong or should I really auto attack when the paladin starts to lose the aggro to me? I don\\'t know I always thought MT\\'S should hold aggro. I mean if I left def on the paladin doesn\\'t have a chance to hold onto it but with it turned off? I\\'M CONFUSED

Use SE -> Fracture -> SP. Shouldn't be able to pull off with that. If you're opening with BB, don't. MT shouldn't lose aggro but pulling off him will cause more chaos than just throttling your DPS a bit.

A Warrior trying to pull aggro off a Paladin will pull aggro. Usually that's accounting for Unchained, but you had Defiance off. More than likely you had a crit BB while Berserked.

Typical OT rotation would have Defiance off, and going SE -> BB (possible Fracture kept up), using Berserk and maybe a Defiance - Infuriate - Inner Beast near end... that shouldn't pull off a Paladin trying to hold aggro.

Excessive use of BB (like SE - BB - BB) could pull off though

As for 8 man content with a Warrior and a Paladin.. it can be difficult to keep up SE and SP (if it's needed) as MT when a Paladin is spamming Rage of Halone. Warrior OT can generate low threat at times, and then go nuts with the SE - BB when they know it's safe.

I think warriors Butchers Block combo builds more enmity than Paladins Rage of Halone combo because a warrior needs some cushion for when they decide to use storms eye/ storms path comboes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keltraeng

Let me start off by first saying I\\'m not professional world first server downs or the guy who says warriors or paladins are better at Mt then the other. However, how can a paladin call himself MT if I as a warrior can pull hate off of him with just a simple 3 skill rotation?

---

The 3 skill rotation thing might be your problem. Sounds like you're using 123 123 123 with Berserk, which will probably pull from PLD initially. As mentioned above use SE > Fracture > BB or SE > Fracture > SP as OT.

It's easy to purposely pull hate off a MT. It takes a better tank to not do that. If you are hitting the enemy with nothing but enmity combos, that's no good either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

A Warrior trying to pull aggro off a Paladin will pull aggro. Usually that's accounting for Unchained, but you had Defiance off. More than likely you had a crit BB while Berserked.

Typical OT rotation would have Defiance off, and going SE -> BB (possible Fracture kept up), using Berserk and maybe a Defiance - Infuriate - Inner Beast near end... that shouldn't pull off a Paladin trying to hold aggro.

Excessive use of BB (like SE - BB - BB) could pull off though

As for 8 man content with a Warrior and a Paladin.. it can be difficult to keep up SE and SP (if it's needed) as MT when a Paladin is spamming Rage of Halone. Warrior OT can generate low threat at times, and then go nuts with the SE - BB when they know it's safe.

---

OT just shouldn't use BB at all unless it's a burn phase you *need* SE>BB (not se>bb>bb) for that minor extra DPS. The SP debuff makes everyone's lives easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Giantbane

OT just shouldn't use BB at all unless it's a burn phase you *need* SE>BB (not se>bb>bb) for that minor extra DPS. The SP debuff makes everyone's lives easier.

---

I never said to use SE - BB - BB. That was mentioned when I said "excessive use of BB."

I'm of the opinion SP is only useful during times of high damage. I pretty much only use it for FCoB and Shiva if I'm OT. If there was a Warrior OT in T9 I could see him using SP though.

I only use SP in last phase of T10, but I use it throughout T11.

If healers aren't going to have a hard time, I'd rather just push phases faster/ clear faster. In which case I will use SE - BB as OT, and use Fracture sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

I never said to use SE - BB - BB. That was mentioned when I said "excessive use of BB."

I'm of the opinion SP is only useful during times of high damage. I pretty much only use it for FCoB and Shiva if I'm OT. If there was a Warrior OT in T9 I could see him using SP though.

I only use SP in last phase of T10, but I use it throughout T11.

If healers aren't going to have a hard time, I'd rather just push phases faster/ clear faster. In which case I will use SE - BB as OT, and use Fracture sometimes.

---

SE>BB + Frac is like a 2-3% damage increase over SE>SP + Frac. I don't know how much faster 2-3% of an OT's damage is really going to be pushing phases faster. Still think -10% raid damage is better in most situations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Giantbane

SE>BB + Frac is like a 2-3% damage increase over SE>SP + Frac. I don't know how much faster 2-3% of an OT's damage is really going to be pushing phases faster. Still think -10% raid damage is better in most situations.

---

I did one test before the servers went down and I pegged it at about 20 DPS difference in my STR gear (i110 weapon though). Over a long enough fight it can certainly shine through, especially when many groups are or were pushing 4 Bennus in T12 by only a couple seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keltraeng

Let me start off by first saying I\\'m not professional world first server downs or the guy who says warriors or paladins are better at Mt then the other. However, how can a paladin call himself MT if I as a warrior can pull hate off of him with just a simple 3 skill rotation?.......................... I\\'M CONFUSED

---

The classes are not meant to be identical. You are acting like PLD doesn't have a place because war can spike enmity, despite your first sentence. Yes you are confused. Most tanks in ST are scrubs anyway and I can hold hate off wars trying their hardest too. THAT pld is not ALL plds.

Warrior pulls off aggro easily for a reason. Mainly in my very opinion, it is for pulling flash mobs or adds during boss fights. Off-tank should be tanking the adds as well as damaging them pretty quickly. Doesn't mean you pull off the aggro from the MT doesn't mean you should MT the whole fight.

That's why you need to respect each classes' set of skills for as the Paladin's abilities are for pure mitigation. Ideally tanking big hitting bosses.

By the way, both can MT and OT as well. It's just that their own specific skill rotation will differ how the fight would go on.

(example)

Warrior can OT at Lev EX fight with his brutal swing. First and foremost, War has incredibly high DPS than the paladin. So killing the mobs fast would be no problem unless DPS is bad. Secondly, the DPS classes like monk has stun to follow up whenever things get worst.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peachy

The classes are not meant to be identical. You are acting like PLD doesn't have a place because war can spike enmity, despite your first sentence. Yes you are confused. Most tanks in ST are scrubs anyway and I can hold hate off wars trying their hardest too. THAT pld is not ALL plds.

---

Whoa....touchy subject dont get bent out of shape bud I play both and was just curious too know why it's so easy too pull off a pally that's all.

Thanks for all that responded I think I have enough information to move foward it's going to suck not being able to use that 300 potency ability to not pull of the paladin but it's best for the group thnks guys :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ragology

I think warriors Butchers Block combo builds more enmity than Paladins Rage of Halone combo because a warrior needs some cushion for when they decide to use storms eye/ storms path comboes.

---

It does exactly this ^^^

However, with Defiance off it should not have been an issue.

But as other have said, it is better to start with SE and SP before throwing any BB combos out just because it will get all the buffs/debuffs out right away and will minimize emnity generated.

One other thing to take into consideration is that often PLD MT's will pop some defensive CD's right after engaging a boss and that can create a short break in their initial emnity generation, so if people are going all out right away it could potentially cause someone to rip hate away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

I did one test before the servers went down and I pegged it at about 20 DPS difference in my STR gear (i110 weapon though). Over a long enough fight it can certainly shine through, especially when many groups are or were pushing 4 Bennus in T12 by only a couple seconds.

---

20 DPS seems a bit on the high side. It's only an additional 40 potency every 6 GCD (about 15s depending on SS) (SE>BB vs. SE>SP) if you completely ignore fracture. When SE>SP already does 1200 pot during that time frame, that 40 potency only represents a 3.33% increase when you're only considering those attacks alone. This ignores fracture, brutal swing and auto attacks so the % increase is even smaller (i just guesstimated 2-3%). Even if you take the 3.33% increase, a 20 DPS increase would mean you're doing 600 base DPS (unless I'm seriously derping the math somehow).

But either way, I did say that you should still pull out all the stops and use SE>BB for any real tight DPS checks where seconds can and do matter. But outside of that I don't think the benefit outweighs dropping SP. I'm assuming the OP isn't quite there yet.

I've actually had this happen to me numerous times with a pld I used to play with.
I learned, when we did the old "Switch MT" routine on various fights that I would have to count to 20 before I hit the boss, in any measure (BB or not) and even out of Defiance.

Moral of Story: Everyone has a bad day (tank or not) or not everyone is good at their job at all times. Be prepared and patient with derps.

One thing to keep in mind is that a PLD's big enmity generator doesn't apply the hate until after its (loooong) animation. While a PLD will be casting Halone on the third GCD, it'll be just before the start of the fourth before you see any change in the meters. This, I find, is the most critical time where you'll need to hold back and why so many have suggested using Fracture here, for example.

With the buff to Circle of Scorn, a decent PLD in equal gear should be able to handle whatever you do after they've finished their second combo, if not before.

When it comes to Enmity generation, WARs excel at Burst Aggro while PLDs excel at Sustained Aggro. This means:

- A WAR has massive bursts of extreme aggro generation followed by periods of lesser aggro generation. This is an ebb and flow.

- A PLD has weaker burst but relatively high aggro generation otherwise.

This means that in identically geared(and skilled) situations, a PLD should be catching up to a WAR by doing their hate combos any time a WAR is not bursting. This, of course, keeps in mind that the WAR in question is alternating between BB and at least one Storm like they should be. Constant BB will likely outthreat a PLD(unless the 5% extra damage reduction from Defiance compared to Shield Oath matters that much) but is not optimal play. WARs are expected to keep Maim up and at least one Storm to let them keep aggro with their less frequent hate combos until their next burst propels them even farther ahead. A WAR who stacks STR enough can literally just burst and then continuously keep both Storms up endlessly until the next burst. Attempting to do that without enough power, however, will result in a PLD overtaking the WAR while using Sword Oath, causing the WAR to hang up their axe in eternal shame.

To directly address the initial topic of the conversation: If a PLD steps up as MT and you do any kind of burst aggro rotation in the first bits of the fight, you're going to take it away from the PLD. Your burst is better than theirs.

Try not to just think of your skills in the terms of which one is strongest, but which ones will synergize with the others. Just spamming your Butcher's Block Combo is great and all, if you are trying be the Main Tank. However, if you are agreeing to Off Tank, then your job is no longer to generate massive quantities of enmity, but instead, to worry about the entire raid. Too many people pass off the Off Tank job as something that's minor, but it's just as important as the Main Tank. As a Warrior, your off tank capabilities FAR surpass those of a Paladin. You have two rotations that debuff your enemy, you should be using these, both of them. I'm of the notion that as the Off Tank and a Warrior (I play both), A rotation of all three cycles can't do you wrong. Doing that, you should effectively reduce your enmity generation while at the same time, really help your raid.

You were with a shitty/undergeared tank in ST.

/thread

It also depends on gear you know in ST people can enter with a Ilvl 70 so if a PLD at 70 vs a WAR at 110 the WAR will wind always win even for a PLD at 100. I had some problems at 104 WAR but when I got me a 110 weapon vs my 90 this all changed and so far I keep up enmity most the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keltraeng

Thanks for all that responded I think I have enough information to move foward it's going to suck not being able to use that 300 potency ability to not pull of the paladin but it's best for the group thnks guys :)

---

It's not a question of using it or not, it's that maybe you shouldn't 1-2-3 your enmity combo and do NOTHING ELSE EVER. If you're just spamming Butcher's Block combo forever, Defiance or not, it's probably going to suck. One would think even if you're just trying to dps and nothing else, that you would find the time to use other skills, like Storm's Eye or Fracture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hiruke

It's not a question of using it or not, it's that maybe you shouldn't 1-2-3 your enmity combo and do NOTHING ELSE EVER. If you're just spamming Butcher's Block combo forever, Defiance or not, it's probably going to suck. One would think even if you're just trying to dps and nothing else, that you would find the time to use other skills, like Storm's Eye or Fracture.

---

This, exactly. However, I think that doing something along these lines whenever the correct buffs are available would help optimize DPS as a WAR Off Tank. Possibly.

Defiance -> Infuriate -> Unchained -> Berserk -> Internal Release -> Inner Beast -> Gather 5 Wrath(without BB) -> Inner Beast -> Turn Off Defiance

Defiance -> Infuriate -> Unchained -> HS -> Zerk -> Maim -> IR -> SE -> HS -> Maim -> SP -> Fracture -> IB -> Defiance off -> HS -> Maim -> SE -> Pacified

Alternatively just turn on Defiance before the pull, Infuriate -> IB, turn it off, and use ^ whenever Infuriate is up again unless you'll be tanking something soon, in which case save Unchained for that.

Don't do that in ST, though. Just SE -> SP x infinity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Defiance -> Infuriate -> Unchained -> HS -> Zerk -> Maim -> IR -> SE -> HS -> Maim -> SP -> Fracture -> IB -> Defiance off -> HS -> Maim -> SE -> Pacified

Alternatively just turn on Defiance before the pull, Infuriate -> IB, turn it off, and use ^ whenever Infuriate is up again unless you'll be tanking something soon, in which case save Unchained for that.

Don't do that in ST, though. Just SE -> SP x infinity.

---

10 hit zerk? no can do

I main a pld, 114, and there have been several times in t9 (at 110) that i pulled off the WAR in our group. We were both 110, and I had full strength accessories, and sword oath. Granted, I only have a hate combo. With some other warriors, I have pulled off in tanking gear, both of us at 110. There have been even more times when I didn't stand a chance. Just saying paladins suck at generating hate isn't exactly correct, but WAR hate is still better most of the time. In the end, pld isn't meant for the kind of aggro generation that war is capable of, our use is mitigation, that 1-hit wI'll be a little softer if it hits our stones in with a cd up. If you are unable to adapt to threat of a pld, regardless of your own hate, you are not a good tank, and I would not dream of stepping into any instance with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gildarts

10 hit zerk? no can do

---

Oh, sorry, right. Had cooldowns messed up. HS -> Maim -> Zerk -> SE -> IR -> etc.

You have Storm's Eye for a reason.