NTO - New Tank Order ... And our manifesto.

Long story short:
- had a bad dungeon run with a tank he was rude
- refused to mark any mobs for priority simply because that was not his job although people were clearly not attacking the same targets
- prioritized writing rude responses to tanking so we died a few times because of that, and so on.

I know some of you will say marking is not important anymore but when I tank and see people don't quite know what to target I at least put a [1] marker on what I want dead first. And I find it useful to teach new players what to attack first without writing everything in chat. :)

And as a main tank that always tries to go above and beyond for my party I felt sad.
So I present to you, New Tank Order and it's manifesto: (suggestions to add to the list or change it are welcome):

http://matjazvn.wix.com/wearetanks

There's a form on the page if you want to be listed as a supporter.

I'd love to see what the "rude responses" were responses to, when marking mobs in dungeons is so ridiculously unnecessary. I'd probably have a few rude responses of my own to someone of your attitude, really sounds like you asked/insisted, maybe even repeatedly, that they mark things.

And people not attacking the same target rarely matters at all. As a good tank I'm concerned with holding hate on all targets, and that's easy enough to do that I could really care less what you attack first, and if/when I do think it'll matter, I'll follow the DPS's lead on what they're attacking, just cause.

Healer to the rescue as usual. This macro comes in very handy as a healer, but it would also have worked great for your situation. It lets you use skills without untargeting the tank. That way everyone could have just targeted the tank and their skills would hit whatever he was targeting automatically.

/macroicon "Stone II"
/ac "Stone II" <tt>
/ac "Stone II" <t>

While I think some of these should be common ground despite your chosen class. Such as; "We will not get mad at you for screwing it up by mistake." and "We will take time to explain the fights to those who are new around here."

I'm definitely behind this though!

that entire page can be summed up as:

#notALLtanks

Why jump to conclusions? And also read what I said. I don't mark everything. I mark when we have new players and as necessary. Simply putting [1] mark on something that should be killed first helps a lot when everyone is attacking it's own target.

But I get it. You're not one of us friendly and helpful tank I guess. Because as soon as it's something more than a minimum you have to do it's a chore for you and you'd rather argue than do it.
But hey, no problem. This is not to convince anyone that this is the right way, it's rather to inspire the current tanks and new ones to stay friendly and helpful. 99% of gaming communities are downright toxic. Does that mean we must be a part of it? I say no.

Personally marking is not necessary. I run either raids or expert DF on a Japanese server so more often than not i can barely communicate with whoever i'm tanking for, so its best for me just to hold hate on everything and if i lose something i'll pick it up.
Even for newbies (unless you doing SM Sastasha with a first timer) marking is not necessary, its a convenience and that's about the end of it. Feel free to attack what ever target you want if the tank doesn't mark them up, it usually means they're pretty confident in their own skills to keep aggro.

I don't understand the purpose of this. Are you going to beat a rude tank over the head with your link? If the tank's being a jerk, why would they even click your link? Do you feel the need to commit a handle to a website in order to ensure you're not a jerk, yourself?
I really don't get it, sorry.

And marking mobs is unnecessary for the most part. At one point, I was with some players who were avid fans of tanks marking, but as a tank, I couldn't see the sense.
I do mark some mobs. The golem part in Qarn, the mages in the 'boss' battles in Tam-Tara, the morphing Priests -> Dove Aevis in Snowcloak... I think that's about it. Oh, boss takedown order in Haukke Manor normal. There might be a couple I'm missing but... that's all that really needs to be marked, just a handful of things.

I appreciate your take on tanking, Zorya. I myself run a newbie-FC and know exactly how to help them because it's what I'm doing most days from storymodes to extremes, and because I remember being new. Some groups benefit from the clear marking, and when it's obvious that marking would clarify confusion or hesitation on the DPS's part, and/or help the new healer that's struggling (single mobs dying faster = less damage on tank) on one of those notoriously difficult rooms where mobs can't be separated, if the tank doesn't mark then I assume it's because he's unable to mark, or unable to recognize the issue in the group.When I first hit 50 and struggled with aggro in WP against these super DRGs doing single target damage with their impressive Relic weapons, and amazing BLMs with their god-like Zeniths doing AoE both at the same time, it became apparent that I needed to communicate well, which included marks and my run went more smoothly (other than the Tomberry King always having me dead by the end of the fight). Once I got some Darklight and Ifrit sword I started doing WP with "I'll be marking only for your convenience, burn however you feel is best". I did this primarily because I didn't know how healing or DPSing worked, and I wanted to cater to pros and newbies alike. Now that I know the three roles well, I know how to support them.

I will say though that I can't tell if maybe you were offering advice to that tank, or trying to dictate how he does things, but I get the impression your intensions were in the right place either way, and he was obv. a jerk for his responses. I can wipe 976783478655 times on a run I consider "easy", and it may be frustrating but it's only a bad run when someone's got a poor attitude, complaining, blaming and/or rage quitting.

And just for clarification the bold print was a remark at the tanks who posted here not knowing the value behind marks, and choosing to respond negatively. I personally don't see the benefit of the manifesto, but he's obviously trying to encourage better(/more considerate) tanking and I'm happy to place my ign. This forum's not known for it's quality of person, Zorya, and you may have better luck somewhere like FFXIVRealm.

Happy tanking.

Marking is pointless because of the fact most dps gain damage output the more targets there are. If I'm on my bard and there are two or three mobs, I'll dot each mob then use quick nock until it's time to refresh dots/straight shot (310/330 potency for dots, plus bloodletter resets, 220-330 potency per quick nock in this case, compared to 150 from heavy shot). If there are four or more trash targets I'm going to just spam aoes. Unless if a mechanic requires burning a specific target (which is rare) then all following marks does is slow the group.

If a DPS is presented with a group of mobs and they don't pick the highest total damage option, they're doing their job wrong. If as a tank you can't hold all targets regardless of what the dps are doing, then you're doing your job wrong. Holding everything is easy.

I'm still working on tanking and I am getting really close to level 50 on my first class. In my opinion marking is something that can be done at lower level, but shouldn't be needed in most cases. I've been doing Tam Tara on Low Level Roulette and had groups that insisted that I needed to mark for them so they could understand what to attack first. In an attempt to help smooth the run out I started marking ever fight. Nevertheless they STILL didn't attack in the right order. Though I go above and beyond with that by reminding them to attack the mobs in the priority order, a kindness which is sadly overlooked on many occasions. Sometimes after all that they go out of their way to make sure to attack in the reverse order I marked. So I think the problem isn't tanks not wanting to mark it is that there are tanks out there who refuse to mark because they know it might not change anything. Also before I get a rap as a bad tank some of them had classes at level 50 and should know better.

You're right, Dreipha, but no matter what you do there will always be trolls. I don't always mark, I read the situation and see if it's needed. For example some DPS will hesitate to attack for quite a while because they're unsure what to do and are afraid to get flamed by the party (probably had happened to them before), if I see this, I mark because it eases things on them and speeds up the DPS. If you have a problem with these types of players, then you need to stay out of DF because it's for everyone.

You don't have to mark if you're not comfortable for one reason or another, but I like to encourage tanks to be considerate of the party when it calls for it. A good tank can manage enmity, a great player can manage a party (even an imperfect one) and a tool just whines when things don't go their way.

That is true I do try to help players as needed. If I see someone genuinely struggling I go out of my way to mark and give the occasional pointer if I see something they are doing that they could improve. I always try to keep an eye on what everyone is doing to try to help the group do better as a whole.

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Originally Posted by StrangeBard

That is true I do try to help players as needed. If I see someone genuinely struggling I go out of my way to mark and give the occasional pointer if I see something they are doing that they could improve. I always try to keep an eye on what everyone is doing to try to help the group do better as a whole.

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Tanks are in a prime position to help the party, partially because they tend to be taken as a leader of the party, particularly by newer players. It is not your responsibility to cater to everyone's needs but it's great that you're willing to help. Unfortunately there's no perfect way to do things though; one thing I've noticed is that 95% of the time you're basically expected to lead and then 5% of the time someone will complain that you're trying to lead, or how you're doing it.

I hit WAR 50 two weeks ago (i110 as of last Friday) and still mark targets in EX DR. It's part force of habit and part precaution.

If they don't need my marking, that's great. If they don't follow my marking, I'll need to adapt faster. Anything to make my run as smooth and safe as possible.

Marking normal trash mobs is only done by new/slow tanks.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

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Sometimes tanks have to take charge though in the end game content. I just hit 50 on Paladin a few day ago and in that time I got up to item level 91. I decided to try tanking in CT and after a few good runs I get stuck with a horrid group. The other tank in the party kept trying to pull off of me and refuses to communicate with the group. On top of that we wiped twice in the Paths of Vice because the nobody would stay on the pad. After the second I wipe I was tired of dealing with their shit and started basically ordering them around since they were not listening to my polite advice. Once I started giving orders to them about what to do and when to do it the group did better. Sad part of the whole thing is that we didn't have a single new person in the party for that entire run. So while we shouldn't cater to everyone we should make sure other people don't ruin the experience for others.

So 90% of those responding did not actually read the OP. The tank could not keep agro on all mobs. Since the tank can't do this the tank needs to mark/be taught how to hold hate on all mobs. I've had plenty of bad tanks that I would grab agro on an df just from casting thunder on it and the tank refused to get it back saying, only atk the target they are attacking. And then refuse to mark... the op isn't talking about a tank who holds hate and doesn't mark, they are referring to a tank who can't keep hate and doesn't mark and the Blaims the party

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

So 90% of those responding did not actually read the OP. The tank could not keep agro on all mobs. Since the tank can't do this the tank needs to mark/be taught how to hold hate on all mobs. I've had plenty of bad tanks that I would grab agro on an df just from casting thunder on it and the tank refused to get it back saying, only atk the target they are attacking. And then refuse to mark... the op isn't talking about a tank who holds hate and doesn't mark, they are referring to a tank who can't keep hate and doesn't mark and the Blaims the party

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I dont even think marking the prime target would save you or your party if the tank can't keep aggro on a 2+ pull. Honestly, if you can't see what the tank is doing in the fight, then maybe you need to start paying more attention.

I've done both methods, some groups like it and others don't. It really comes down to comfort and how comfortable you are with the tank at the time. Regular dungeons hardly need a marker, unless some really shit storm hits and you need everyone to focus.

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Originally Posted by StrangeBard

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That can be true of any class/role though. But tanks tend to be
taken more seriously.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

That can be true of any class/role though. But tanks tend to be
taken more seriously.

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I was planning on mentioning that but I ran out of characters.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

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No YOU didn't read the OP. It wasn't that the tank wasn't holding hate it was that he, and I quote, "refused to mark any mobs for priority simply because that was not his job although people were clearly not attacking the same targets". Never once did he say the tank wasn't holding hate he simply said that the DPS were attacking out of order and the tank didn't feel like it was his job to tell the DPS how to do their job. If you read the OP's other post he still does NOT say that the tank was losing hate. We were entirely on topic with our conversation about what is and isn't a tank's job in regards to players who don't know what they are doing. The only thing close to what you are talking about is that the tank was being rude and was typing in a fight.

We will be your shield. - Yes

We will charge first into the fight. - Yes

We will take damage instead of you. - Yes

We will protect your life as if it was our own. - Yes

We will not get mad at you for screwing it up by mistake. - Only if you learn from your mistakes

We will provoke the enemy so they attack us instead of you. - Yes

We will interrupt the skills that would be "harmful" to our party. - Yes, just need a spelling correction

We will take time to explain the fights to those who are new around here. - No, there is a site for this, it's called Youtube, there are guides all over the place for the fights, and I'm not going to waste the time of 6 other people who probably know the fight to sit down and explain in words what really needs to be seen with your eyes.

We will mark the targets when "necessary" so the fight is smoother and easier for new players. - Yes, just correct the spelling mistake please.

We will repeat the failed fight with you and encourage you to do better instead of yelling at you. - As long as you learn from your mistakes.

We will teach new tanks not only the mechanics and tanking, but we will also remind them to be friendly. - I will teach new tanks who are willing to listen. Otherwise, I WANT them to have a miserable time playing my role so that my role remains in high demand, and I can play with competent, worth while tanks when I'm not tanking.

Also, what dungeon were you running where the kill order of trash was so important? I get that it's all "attack my target that I am focusing on because I may lose agro on the mob you're attacking if you don't" and stuff, but if he was maintaining agro on all the targets, then I don't really see an issue with not having a kill order. Sure, some fights (Usually boss fights) need to kill things rather quickly, or in a certain order, but not many are, and those that are usually are very late in the game, where there are more competent people playing (normally).

I have a lowbie tank (i97 atm) but mostly play bard or ninja. I think by the time someone has jobs high enough to push the now-removed ilvl cap, they should know how to play their job (hopeful thinking, I know). For those with no 50 or new players, I think marking could help and like most tanks here, if I see someone struggling with choosing/engaging mobs I'll mark one with a '1' just to help. But for all the people in poetics gear, I think it isn't needed. We can usually take the hits and kill it fast, the healer can throw a regen on us if needed, or in extreme cases we can just switch targets and let tank reacquire via their aggro tools.

With the improvements to Flash and CoS, PLDs shouldn't have issues with aggro unless grossly out geared. I've had PLD with lower ilvl (i100 or so) pull almost all of SC up to the bear, and not mark anything at all, and we just burned everything down. I took hate a few times, but it didn't matter b/c the mob was usually dead right after. Skilled and experienced players shouldn't need marking -- new to the dungeon or newer players might. All situational I'd say ^^

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Originally Posted by Zorya

Simply putting [1] mark on something that should be killed first helps a lot when everyone is attacking it's own target.

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At what point is it the players responsibility to learn how to play? As DPS you can learn which mobs need to die right away and or you could learn to use your keybinding that selects your targets target. I am not saying marking has no uses but in the case of 1 mob .... you really should learn to use the tools already given to you on top of learning the content you are running. If you see a mob that cast abilities that need to be dodged a lot while one just sits there it is usually a good idea to kill the one making your tank move around and preventing him from keeping constant activity on all the other mobs which will cause him to lose threat, while this is not always the case it is most of the time and there is common sense which should be applied.

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Originally Posted by DSN

At what point is it the players responsibility to learn how to play? As DPS you can learn which mobs need to die right away and or you could learn to use your keybinding that selects your targets target. I am not saying marking has no uses but in the case of 1 mob .... you really should learn to use the tools already given to you on top of learning the content you are running. If you see a mob that cast abilities that need to be dodged a lot while one just sits there it is usually a good idea to kill the one making your tank move around and preventing him from keeping constant activity on all the other mobs which will cause him to lose threat, while this is not always the case it is most of the time and there is common sense which should be applied.

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Can I add to this by reminding people that play this game something? IF you play this game, you have an internet connection. IF you have an internet connection, you can probably access Youtube. Even PS3 and PS4 can access youtube. IF you can access youtube, you can watch a video guide. IF you come into a new dungeon and say "Lol, I'm a newb, IDK what I to do here, help me, I haven't watched a video or anything" then my first and only response is this "Help yourself before asking me for help, because I'm not putting in all the effort to teach when you haven't put in any effort to learn first."

Edit: If what I am running is an entirely new dungeon with no guides what-so-ever out there, then chances are, I don't know all the mechanics either. But in the off chance I do know them, and this is the ONLY time I will do this, I will teach them. Otherwise, take a hint...

http://www.thehanoa.org/css_pirobox/...-stitch-i3.gif

And in the alternate case of alternate mechanics being easier than what are in videos out there, then sit down...

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/54169296.jpg

I macro mark 1 to Shield Lob and Tomahawk that way I can mark my primary target without taking up any extra time. Because those skills are on GCD, I can toggle the 1 on and off by using the skills in between CDs. I don't do this all the time but it's a very simple way to communicate with my party quickly - "Hey let's kill this first."

That being said, it's equally easy for healers/DPS to watch hate bars (and as someone else said, best damage is done by dotting multiple targets anyway). Equally easy to watch what the tank is targetting and mob hp. What gets me is that somehow marking became the tank's job. It's totally fine by me but I'd have no problem with a DPS marking as long as it didn't take up time. I can just as easily have hate on what they're attacking as they can attack what I have hate on. It's a team game, folks. The best groups work together.

I always study before a new fight, and I don't think you should hop into DF assuming people will teach you or carry you. However, for ME, written guides are much more useful and video guides are basically useless before I've gotten some experience with the content. Plus video guides are usually full of misinformation since they always predate echo, new gear and nerfs, and often don't have the most efficient strat being used. Of course blind runs are the most fun, but you'll need a preformed party for that.

I often mark as DPS or heals if needed and the tank doesn't mind but the tank's in the best position to do it. And as mentioned before, marking is rarely done for aggro management once you've figured out how to manage aggro and are geared on par with your party, it has other uses. And as a side note for the discussion on newbies, it's rarely a persons inability or lack of foreknowledge of a fight because they didn't study that causes them to mess up (though it does happen), it's anxiety and a lack of confidence, often brought on by the types of attitudes seen by a few in this thread. I know someone who was scared off of leveling her DPS because of a bad experience in an early dungeon, made her husband do evey dungeon after that until SV where she'd only run with friends, took forever and a day to hit 50 and is now a raid leader and a badass DPS, healer and tank.and having lost out on all that early experience, it wasn't without some super-newbie mistakes.

When ever we get new stuf (Duties, Primals, coils, etc.) I am usually in it the same day or a few shortly after. I go on tank and I go in bind as a bat. I wan't to learn firsthand how things go, what mechanics to deal with etc., figure things out for myself. I would say 98% of the time I am 100% successful.

I agree that with content that has been out for a while, that has video / written guides, should be studied up on, I would argue that not everyone learns that way. I understand this. Watching and reading can help you to prepare for things, as you will recognize them as things progress, but you have to do it to get it.

Ex: Garuda EX (after patch 2.4 release) - New player - My first time, no idea what to do......(many resources on the fight that should have been used before Q'ing up)
Shiva EX (after patch 2.4 release) - All players (mostly) - First time, let's learn this shiz.