I just wrote a 4 paragraph rant that was very angry, this is my attempt at re-wording it.
Why do I see WAR guides recommending that Storm's Path not be maintained?
I'm not talking about 4-mans or T6-8, I'm talking about content that is actually relevant and challenging, namely FCoB. I've seen 2 or 3 end-game very high quality WARs that recommend against using it or only using it as if it were a CD to mitigate damage from tank killer moves.
WHY!? Its such a great tool to mitigate the raid-wide AEs, the splash damage mechanics that hit the DPS, and just overall output on boss mobs on whomever is tanking. I haven't run into a single threat issue as a WAR OT in FCoB yet. I just don't understand the BB>Eye>BB>Eye recommendations. Just keep the uptime on Path unless you need a threat boost!
Pre-emptive counter-argument to DPS-centric WARs. DPS is great, I throw on DPS accessories and am looking into getting i90s melded, I agree that it works well. I just think the impact of having 10% damage down from the boss/adds is much much more valuable than a .5% increase in raid DPS from you squeezing out 20-30 extra DPS.
I'm really not trying to be combative, I'm just mainly reaching out to see if my logic is flawed in some way - do I understand what Storm's Path does correctly? Is that extra DPS that a WAR can push anything other than e-peen on the parser?
Storm's Path
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12-06-2014, 12:33 AMEhayteStorm's Path
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12-06-2014, 01:18 AMLichKaiser
Do as your party need. I ended Fcob spamming storm eye/path. Wen extra dps needed i used eye/butcher. Actualy ot is a resource for the group. Need dps? Do dps. Need less damage on group or on mt? Do path. Remember people act like they says coz other memeber on theyr pt make them play that way.
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12-06-2014, 01:25 AMThistledown
ok if that is true I have been tanking wrong for the last two weeks (which is the time that I picked up tanking). I've been doing BB>SP>BB>SP in most of my main tanking, with BB>SE>BB>SE in things like Titan's Heart phase to extract that little sliver of dps I can get. Otherwise it should be the party NIN's job (of which we have plenty)
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12-06-2014, 01:35 AMRbstr
Path is a valuable tool. But, yeah, it's most useful against tank-killer mechanics. If you think about most raid-wide damage in challenging content that 10% is usually not all that likely to save someone from death (so much is insta-death when mishandled anyway) or result in the use of fewer GCDs on the healers' parts. There are certainly times where it can help a lot but 100% uptime is pretty much just wasted potency.
It's really only valuable if there's peoples' lives or healers' mana to be saved. If the 10% isn't going to be actually useful then there's no reason to use it. More DPS is almost always useful, even if the difference is small. -
12-06-2014, 02:11 AMSpookyGhostWAR MT rotation is either SE -> BB or SE -> SP, SP -> BB is never really needed. Something to remember is that each of your combos have a specific use:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thistledown
Storm's Eye: More damage/more aggro generated.
Storm's Path: Mainly used before big attacks or in fights with consistent large hits (T8 Savage, T12, T13, etc.)
Butcher's Block: Aggro generation, highest potency combo.
If Storm's Path 100% uptime is needed, you can cut BB out of your rotation unless you actually NEED more aggro. With a proper opener you can alternate SE and SP endlessly without ever fear of losing aggro. This is usually never needed, so SE -> BB is optimal, only putting up SP before a big hit.
The NIN will also benefit more from cutting DE out of their rotation than you would from cutting SE out of your rotation, so no matter what the group composition is you should be the one putting up the slashing debuff. -
12-06-2014, 02:14 AMEhayteIf you have a NIN in the party you should prioritize getting up Storm's Eye for them. It is a substantial DPS increase for them and not a big deal for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thistledown
My argument is that 10% is a big enough impact on healer mana and Ballad up-time that its more valuable than the extra DPS. When you say its most useful against Tank-killer mechanics I'm not sure how that checks out - it has the same 10% effect on all damage. A 3k raid-wide is going to do 24,000 damage, and you will have mitigated 2,400. As opposed to something like Revelation that does 9000, you've mitigated 900.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbstr
I know its widely accepted to put it up before the big AEs like in T11, etc, but IMO it should be mandatory before Wild Charge, Heat Lightening, Prey, Cyclonic Chaos, and any auto attack, as its a free 10% damage mitigation. That's 1/2 of Shield Oath!!!! -
12-06-2014, 02:17 AMSpookyGhost
OT rotation for WAR in FCoB should be SE -> SP until everyone has learned the content. SP is more valuable when you and your group are in unfamiliar territory.
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12-06-2014, 02:30 AMEhayteMmm. Agreed, obviously - I just think that people are overestimating the benefits from doing slightly more DPS and underestimating the benefits from having Storm's Path up 100%. Even on stuff that's farm status it just makes everything easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
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12-06-2014, 05:05 AMSirTaint
SP is very useful in FCoB, lots of raid damage going out. It can makes things like the auto crit nerve cloud in T11 much more manageable.
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12-06-2014, 06:25 PMSleigh
SP was pretty useful learning T10 in i110, definitely made surviving Wild Charge > potential floor DoT ticks easier in final phase, also affects Prey. By now in i120+ it's not particularly useful anymore.
T11, it's nice for mechanics. Nerve Cloud was always survivable with only DK and full HP but SP can save people, quite a bit more useful for the auto-crit one though. Tanks get chunked pretty well in this turn too.
T12, aside from Revelation Phoenix isn't a particularly threatening boss, and the two things it'd be really nice for, Bennus and Flames of Rebirth, you can't put up SP for if you're MTing and/or in add phase. I could see this turn seeing the removal of SP before T11/13.
T13, SP should be up 100%. Even as you gear up it's really nice, it can make you survive Megaflare > tower without heals, and Gigaflare still requires good stuff until you approach i130. Plus the MT gets absolutely wrecked P1/P2, and Akhs are the deadliest sets of attacks in the game currently. -
12-09-2014, 12:18 AMEhayteMmm... I think think its nice for Crit Rip and adds. As OT maintaining Path on both adds and then putting up Eye for the NIN when they switch to OT adds helps out the healer a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
Tanks tend to get smacked around pretty good in this turn, to my experience. And since I've just been provoking>IB>Thrill for Main heads then letting the PLD take enmity back I just pretty much go SE>SP>Repeat unless I'm berserked/unchained trying for a phase change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
I like to make sure it is always up 5 seconds before Flames of Forgiveness come out, but I find it really hard to get it on Bennus in P1. In the add phase since enmity is so sticky I will have Eye up on my Bennu that is getting DPSed for the NIN, and then just rotate path on the rest. What do you mean I can't put up SP if I am MTing? I don't even use Butcher's Block most of the time to 100% uptime Eye and Path, I just zerk every time we swap and no one has even gotten close to me on enmity yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
13 I have no experience in, my group got through add phase in 12 last night :D -
12-09-2014, 02:28 AMSleighYou should consider whether SP is actually saving GCDs/MP for your healers, or saving lives, in T10 and T12. In most cases the answer is no (except for progression/i110 VIT, that's quite understandable).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
There comes a point where more damage is more damage and SP is just being polite to your healers. -
12-09-2014, 04:34 AMEhayteI am considering that; the meta here is if it actually does enough to say that you can save a cast from a healer, or if the damage is in increments such that whether there is 3000 or 2700, the same spells are going to be cast at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
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12-09-2014, 06:39 PMCabalabobI don't quite agree with this logic, although raid wide damage is bigger overall, to the individual it is much less. For example, if an AoE attack does 1000 damage to each person, 10% is only 100 damage reduction. Yes it's 100 damage reduction to 8 people making it 800 damage reduction. But to each person it's still only 100. That's not enough that it will mean the healer won't have to use an AoE heal that will likely more than cover that 100 damage anyway. While for a tank buster that does 8000 damage to one target that 10% is a 800 damage reduction to one person. That's basically a cure 1 and can actually make the difference between that big hit killing or not killing its target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
I'm not arguing either way to using storm's path btw, I simply don't agree with your logic here. :) -
12-09-2014, 11:46 PMEhayteI mean if you set the parameters to make it fail then of course the logic will fail anecdotally, the question is whether it is actually worth it to have SP up all the time, for tank killer moves and specific raid AEs, or just for tank killers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
I've seen most people argue for just tank killers but I'm just challenging the form as a 10% damage reduction at all times is pretty powerful. -
12-10-2014, 03:47 AMRbstr
The point, though, is that 900 damage mitigated to one person and 2400 damage mitigated over 8 people are not really comparable because of AOE healing.
Far more apt is comparing that 900 damage vs. the 300 damage. Adding 300 more damage to a 2700 hit is way less threatening than 900 damage added to a 8100 damage hit. That 300 damage probably doesn't expend an additional GCD and 3k isn't all that life-threatening. A 9k hit represents a much more serious threat of dieing to a tank.