So in the live letter they announed the raids in Heavensward will have a normal and hard mode. What are your thoughts on this? Are people who wanted story mode coil now happy? Will this mean less nerfs to the hard mode raid because casuals will get to see the storyline in the raids when they do normal mode? Hopefully it works better then only having the 1 difficulity in coil.
Heavensward raids will have a normal and hard mode
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11-29-2014, 09:47 PMZumiHeavensward raids will have a normal and hard mode
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11-29-2014, 09:49 PMSpookyGhost
Depends on if doing the hard mode version yields a better reward. If you get the same gear for half the effort, why do the HM version at all? Curious to see how they'll handle that, since I imagine people will cry if the HM version does have better stuff.
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11-29-2014, 09:52 PMMuzettaI'm fairly certain it'll be the same thing as we have with primals now. The "hard" versions are purely story-related and extremes actually give you loot.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
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11-29-2014, 10:37 PMHulveinBlitz
NM will probably not drop anything.
HM will drop loot. -
11-29-2014, 10:37 PMrazzgrizz3
nobody apart from world 1st pushers is going to do the hard modes if they dont have better loot imo.
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11-29-2014, 10:46 PMSpookyGhostI'm not actually sure how well that would work for raid content. Queues might be a bit of a disaster if you get no loot from the NM version. Especially barren if you can't use DF for the normal version until 3 months later or w/e. I'm personally fine with two different difficulties for raids, I just dunno how they'll handle it to make it fair. I guess nobody complains about the current HM primals, but they also don't... do them more than once...Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzetta
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11-29-2014, 10:50 PMShinun
I could see the NM having same loot as HM but less which if you include weekly lockouts could be quite a difference.
I think more though that NM will prob be a prep for HM with majority of the mechanics just doing alot less damage for training purposes. -
11-29-2014, 11:01 PMRiepah
Maybe there'll be a Standard and a Gold version. Standard is for everyone to experience the story, but gives no loot. If you want loot, you can buy your 1-month Gold Raid VIP-ticket at the mogstation.
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11-29-2014, 11:03 PMGralnahttp://40.media.tumblr.com/d6f32dc2b...mumo1_1280.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
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11-29-2014, 11:04 PMZanzhizExaverion
NM will be for story.
HM will probably be tuned more difficult, but nerfs are inevitable as the content grows old. Loot will be prized.
As long as there's gear behind a raid it will be nerfed so long as time goes on.
They nerfed Amdapor Keep ffs.
EDIT: This is what I expect.
Normal Mode: Fresh Level 60 gear/weapons like Hard Mode Primals from 2.0.
Hard Mode: Raid difficulty, high end gear. -
11-29-2014, 11:07 PMZelth
Normal mode: No weekly lockout, no loot, roulette for currency bonus to keep people doing them.
Hard mode: Weekly lockout, High level loot really only useful for progressing through hard mode raids, basically the same as FCoB now.
This would be perfect. -
11-29-2014, 11:14 PMGarlyle
I'm most interested in how these are going to be tuned, not just the rewards/lockout. Are we going to see, for instance, "Normal" tuned in the way Second Coil currently is? In the way Second Coil was pre-nerf? Will that be where Hard is, or will Hard be full on Savage tier for better gear?
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11-29-2014, 11:28 PMDeathscythe343
It is, of course, entirely possible that what they are talking about is the same things as normal coil now and savage.
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11-30-2014, 12:14 AMHulveinBlitzThey would of used the term Savage then. Or referenced it, to make explanations easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathscythe343
Which leads to the popular belief, that it will not be the same. -
11-30-2014, 12:16 AMAirget
Be fun if they decided to add 3 version lol.
The overtuned concept they later turn into hard mode and then the normal version to allow story progression.
I can see why they would do this for the new raid concept cause it is true that the journey through coil is a bit tainted through not only the removal or nerf of mechanics but also the buff applied when entering the dungeon.
By creating a "story mode" concept rather than have players wait it out for those who want to enjoy the story they can enjoy the story for what it is and if later on they decide they want to try the hard mode they can.
As mentioned above the normal mode could be seen as to uses, ability to get an idea over certain concepts of a fight if hard mode is proving to be diffiult, wherein I imagine that normal mode might=no instant kill mechanics while hard mode=instant kill mechanics + additional phases or mechanics or more mobs added into the mix to keep it more challenging.
And saying that now I see what they are trying with this normal/hard mode concept. They are trying the primal hard/extreme mode concept with raids to see how it plays out. They are hoping by doing this they will be able to please both sides and in a way keep sought after gear challenging to obtain rather than make it a cakewalk to obtain 2 patches later compared to when the gear was first released.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out since this also means they can somewhat add raids into the actual part of the story rather than make it a side attraction in a sense that isn't required to progress through the main story and it could also be their "answer" to the 8-man dungeons.
However these (normal) raid dungeons will most likely be in the same vain as the final 2 8-man dungeons from the main story in terms of potential dungeon loot rewards. -
11-30-2014, 12:42 AMMrHobbit
it will look like this NM for everyone just like current coils and HM for people that pay additional fee on the mogstation just like the to be eternal bond system.... or the other way around SE is full of ideas -_-
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11-30-2014, 12:46 AMTribunus
Whats with all these ideas of normal mode having no loot? lol what a stupid idea.
NM = Same as it is now
HM = Tuned for higher difficulty, drops more loot per boss. -
11-30-2014, 12:49 AMSessurea
Well u got ppl like me who skipped t9 cut scenes upon clearing and then u have ppl not managing to get through coil who would love to see them, so yes, this is a great change.
@above: I highly doubt nm will drop significant loots. Think like hm/extreme primals maybe. -
11-30-2014, 12:51 AMmdha02
Agreed. I would love to see modes like with the Primals nm-average loot. HM-better loot, and Savage-best loot.
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11-30-2014, 01:04 AMZetsumei_TsunarashiI'm fairly certain that this feature is being designed in response to all the feedback saying that casuals can't see the coil story because the content is too hard for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribunus
So it's likely that it will be changed to be like the primals where you must first clear the normal mode or "story mode" version which will be fairly easy and drop no loot in order to gain access to the hard mode which will be the level of difficulty that we're used to in coil and will have all your loot. -
11-30-2014, 01:14 AMUltimatecaliburReading the Live-letter translation makes me think that NM will be for Mid-Tier players and HM will be for Hardcore players and that there will be more content developed for the Mid-Tier from ow on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi
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11-30-2014, 01:23 AMmdha02Raids
I forgot to mention I think this would probably make the end game players happy since they won't have to put up with the people who are just there for the story and aren't really cut out for end gaming.
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11-30-2014, 02:37 AMcookiecutterNormal mode will probably be on the same difficulty level as CT/ST. The hard mode will probably similar to the pre nerfed difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garlyle
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11-30-2014, 02:38 AMcookiecutterThey're incorporating something different for mid tier raiders and maybe the new raid mode:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Q8: Currently, there are a lot of content for the hardcore users and the casual users, but not many for the mid-tier users. Are there any plans to implement additional content for the mid-tier users that are able to beat Crystal Tower, but not the Coil of Bahamut?
A8: In the upcoming expansion, we will be introducing a new content for the mid-tier users which is currently referred to as “free company craft” (final name TBD). Additionally, we are planning to implement normal modes and hard modes for the raid dungeons. Please look forward to it!
On another note what exactly is a mid-tier raider? -
11-30-2014, 02:42 AMUltimatecaliburThat reads as the "Free company craft" will be in addition to the NM raid dungeons for Mid Tier players.Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
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11-30-2014, 02:44 AMAlexander_Dragonfang
Will also have a paid mode, where for only 60 USD you will play the same raids but with an exclusive color scheme.
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11-30-2014, 05:03 AMTheCurls
I think the NM raid will drop the same gear, but the HM gear will be able to be dyed.
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11-30-2014, 05:12 AMHakuroDK
Honestly? I like this very much and I hope they do this retroactively with Coil.
Story Mode, Echo-tastic run through the whole thing, loot with 80% of the power of their standard equivalents (effectively making them approx. 20-30 ilvls lower than the standard drops)
Actually, you want to know what would be fantastic? If they made a Binding Coil of Bahamut Story-Mode with "Classic" low-tier armor drops.
First Coil: Darklight Armor
Second Coil: Vintage Armor (i90 Artifact Armor)
Third Coil: Gerolt's Masterworks -
11-30-2014, 05:13 AMDeadwing
Iunno. I think having the normal mode be story-only would be a waste. The game needs more mid-tier content, imo, and having normal drop loot would be a good way to do it.
Normal could be of a difficulty similar to EX Primals- not too hard, and pretty doable once everyone has the hang of things. Still requiring cohesion and teamwork, but not to the extent that FCoB currently demands. It would drop lower item level equipment (probably the same level as currency gear, if that system is kept) and said items would probably look different compared to HM drops, similar to the visual differences between i100 and i110 PvP gear. (yay, glamour options!) A lockout would still be in place, of course.
Hard mode difficulty would be akin to the current raid, or tuned slightly higher (due to the availability of NM gear.) It would feature new and deeper mechanics than normal, some of which are entirely different, to keep things exciting and surprising. -
11-30-2014, 05:17 AMHakuroDKI respect what you're saying. I just find difficulty to scale more like this (or, at least, it should scale more like this):Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwing
Normal: Casual/Story Difficulty
Hard: Mid-Tier Difficulty
Extreme/Savage: Hardcore Difficulty
That difficulty signifier makes it easier to determine which content is best suited to which kind of player. I am a very solid mid-tier player. I can usually clear Normal difficulty content without breaking a sweat and Hard Content gives me just enough of a challenge where it's testing me (in a good way), but it's not wipe-tastic. I have cleared SOME extreme content, but Twintania is still a serious issue for me.
...and honestly? Hard content should stay out of the story. Seems silly to have HM Primals in the story as it stops casuals in their tracks. Fine for separate content, but not the main storyline. -
11-30-2014, 05:24 AMDeadwingYeah, that's perfectly fine, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by HakuroDK
I don't think having a "story" version is a bad thing, but I'd like to see it below Normal and Hard, I guess. Since the current Savage mode drops the same loot as the standard (Hard, in my model) it just makes sense in my head.
Also, I forgot to mention the beauty of having normal mode drops on par with currency gear- we'd see a lot more gearing options in the mid-tier than we do right now. As it stands, your gearing options if you want to be non-raider max ilvl is a full set of currency gear. For DRG last patch, that sucked. The amount of skill speed on that set is unreal. -
11-30-2014, 05:28 AMZumi
Maybe each raid will be buit into the main story quests for each patch. Normal = story mode with no loot. Everyone gets to see the story. Hard mode raid is where the loot drops where mechanics can 1 shot you and wipe the raid. This is exactly what they do with new primals now, hard mode = story no loot, extreme = loot. They just replaced hard with normal and extreme with hard.
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11-30-2014, 05:31 AMHakuroDKI would be more interested in the raids to be structured similar to Crystal Tower, story-wise. Have it feature characters from the main story and allow the main story to get it started, but let it branch off into its own thing from then on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
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11-30-2014, 05:33 AMEvangela
It's obvious. how can you expect them to sell an expansion pack full of content that 80% of the players can't do?
we already have storyline primal trials and the extreme mode of them. -
11-30-2014, 05:39 AMFirepower
What I would like to see would be casuals can farm for tomes to get gear that can be upgraded, raiders can get +10 ilevel gear from coil. (as we currently have)
Put in normal mode coil with same ilv as tome gear (non upgradable, similar to CT). Make the final boss drop from the normal mode coil a few upgrade pieces to upgrade tome gear and use perhaps a CT style restriction to 1 armor or accessory loot and 1 upgrade loot per week. Throw in some craftable and minions for normal coil and it will not be ignored but I can't imagine would enrage hardcore raiders as it doesn't hand out the highest teir of gear and only allows a small fraction of people access to the higher ilv loot after the final boss which could be tuned to be somewhat difficult.
I remember back in 2.0 the majority of people farmed coil 1-4 weekly and left 5 alone as the high allagan weapons were only i90 then plus twintania was very difficult in comparison to t4. You could have some kind of tuning similar to that for normal coil where teir 1-4 pose some level of difficulty but not overly too difficult and have the final turn require a much more co-ordinated effect, thus splitting your playerbase into a more equal standing.
Casuals - tome gear (upgraded at 0.5 patch with access to 24 man raid drops)
Mid teir turn 1-4 - tome gear + extra loot per week
Mid/upper teir - tome gear + extra loot + 1 upgraded to raid teir
Raid teir - tome gear + extra loot + 1 upgraded + raid drops
With approximately 6 weeks between patch starting and 0.5 coming out that would allow potential players to accumulate (assuming the same gear costs today):
casual - 2700 tomes = ~6 pieces of gear (depends on body/leg/acc choice of gear)
mid teir = 12 pieces of gear (full set of gear)
mid/upper = 12 pieces of gear, 6 pieces upgraded to raid teir (dependant on choices of tome gear selected, if a weapon is available and requires 3 weeks worth of tomes they would have weapon and a lesser amount of gear upgraded)
raid teir = 6 pieces upgraded to raid teir + raid drops which can vary wildly due to the lockout, progression of statics, bugs and RNG.
By that point release of the 24 man raid it would allow casuals and mid teirs to upgrade their gears by choosing to use their weekly lots on the upgrade items. The hardcore raiders should in theory be close to full max ilevel and doing raids for BIS gear or weapon drops. The assumption would be that the hard mode raid would also be tuned to be more difficult in gear checks to soften the acceleration of gear acquisition by hardcores by the introduction of the normal coil. -
11-30-2014, 05:43 AMUltimatecaliburI really don't like how they do the post original trio Primals, one and done HM is not a good idea. There needs to be a reason to do them multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
Sound pretty good except I would not want the NM final boss dropping upgrade tokens. Save those for the Hardmode Raids and the every other patch 24 man CT replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firepower
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11-30-2014, 05:56 AMErepioi agree with this...a simple solution for me would be for HM to drop a minion of the primal or atleast have % to drop one (kinda like the crafting mat or onion knight)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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11-30-2014, 06:31 AMRazeLandale
I guess it depends if normal means middle ground difficulty or pug n faceroll. I mean, wasn't raid finder one of the big things that lead to wows decline? It made the hardcore player go 'what's the point?' and the casual player 'beat the game' and they both stopped playing.
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11-30-2014, 06:58 AMSadonix
Comes out too slow,at a very obtuse pace. It's one of the things that they should've seen this come to fruitation right when designing game content. It's not like this is the first game that ever done this..what the hell are you thinking ?
One of the things I've noticed in this game is that they constantly make any content outside of coil raiding more and more grindy and tedious,while never actually touch on the raids itself(and before some dufus try to bring up t6-8 as counterargument,I mean an actual,relevant raid,like those final coils)
i70 guaranteed IV materia ? Great,nerf them next patch. nexus relic farming too easy ? Time to ramp up the challenge ! Fishing for desynth materials ? Here,let's make it harder and take out some rewards so they have to spend even more time !
Meanwhile I've yet to see a single actual "nerf" to the raiding content. And I don't mean those stupid t6-8 either,I mean while the contents outside of coil get more tedious,why are the (current) coil itself never been included in this treatment ? You want people to spend more time fishing,or crafting but you never seem to do the same to raiding. Want people to spend more time in your game ? Why not increase weekly lockout to dual weekly lockout ? Decrease loot drops ? Nope ? Well,not a surprise really it's pretty clear you favor raiding over other contents(which translate to a preferential treatment to a certain group of customers)
Sorry my sub is running out soon,and so is my patience-without refill.Springbreak next year just has too many lovely video game attraction :) Raiding is fun,but I don't want it to eclipse all other content,like how this game is managed.
No worry though now they've got one less "casual" to "cater" to. Now they can make their dream of "hardcore" community come true !