ING2 vs INN

Hello guys, I've picked up crafting 3 weeks ago, I'm at the point now where I'm 100% HQ'ing 3 star master crafts 85-90% of the time on weaver. But since I don't have loads of experience, I would like to ask a question here that I've been wondering about:

When you're getting ready for the BB combo, while "fishing" for a good/excellent after SH1, do you use INN first? Or ING2?

I know a good with only BB is better than BB+ING2+INN on a normal.
But is BB + ING2 or BB + INN better?

The reason I'd like to know this is because I want to use the highest quality contributer first incase I get an early good condition.

Any other knowledge or tips are also very much appreciated. :)

<snip>

Ingenuity II only increases your progress crafted, Innovation gives a 50% bonus to quality. But you should always have Great Strides up either way :D

For 3 stars, prioritise Ingenuity II over Innovation. You don't want to be using Ingenuity II at all for four-stars, just use Innovation.

Ing II does increase quality, but the effect is extremely small on 3- and especially 4-star crafts. Innovation doesn't give a 50% boost to quality, it gives a 50% boost to your base Control, which is useful and more noticeable effect than Ing II, but not better than a Good condition or Great Strides (which is better than a Good condition). Ing II costs too much to just be used as a filler for Good fishing, but Innovation fills that role nicely, and you should always try to use it if you can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cocolai

Ingenuity II only increases your progress crafted, Innovation gives a 50% bonus to quality. But you should always have Great Strides up either way :D

---

Ingenuity II lowers the level of the synth, increasing quality for any recipe that is higher than you (1 star or higher)

Innovation adds 50% of your base control, not including Inner Quiet stacks, so it's essentially 2½ more stacks on IQ.

1-3 stars Ingenuity II will give you a bigger boost, 4 stars and anything below 1 star Innovation wins out. Also, good condition is better than either of them at any level.

Hmmm, ok.. That's really weird though, I always thought because ING2 lowers the recipe lvl, that the effect of ING2 becomes BETTER, the HIGHER the recipe lvl (more stars) is.. So this is not the case then? O.o

Basically the following, Innovation is only good when you don't have any stacks of IQ and losses effectiveness as your control increases. Anything below 50, you don't need either ING 2 or Inno. 1 star or 2 star ONLY, you want to follow:

SH 1 > Excellent > BB
SH 1 > Any Condition > GS > Good/Excellent > BB
SH 1 > Any Condition > GS > Any Condition > ING 2 > Good/Excellent > BB
SH 1 > Any Condition > GS > Any Condition > ING 2 > Any Condition > Innovation > Any Condition > BB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pyroclastic

Hmmm, ok.. That's really weird though, I always thought because ING2 lowers the recipe lvl, that the effect of ING2 becomes BETTER, the HIGHER the recipe lvl (more stars) is.. So this is not the case then? O.o

---

The formula to calculate how much quality you get based on your control is estimated to be ax^2 + bx + c
But things aren't that simple because our level caps at 50 and we are given a level penalty each time we do a recipe that is higher than our cap.

Now there are different degree's to the level penalty based on how many level's higher the recipe is than your current level.

As an example. If you have 391 control.

1 Star and 2 Star
You first Basic Touch should yield 177.35 quality but it doesn't. It only yields 129.7 quality which is sadly always rounded down to 129. This is because of the level penalty applied. What ingenuity 2 does is since you level discrepancy lowered; then the level penalty applied is also lowered and you get 172.9 quality which again is rounded down to 172 quality increase.

SH > BT = 129
SH > ING 2 > BT = 172

3 Star an d 4 Star
The problem now is that as higher recipes come out, our level is still capped so no matter how much we decrease the level by, the penalty is still at the maximum. Which means that for those two crafts. Ingenuity 2 is useless because regardless of whether or not you use it, you will get 129 quality.

SH > BT = 129
SH > ING 2 > BT = 129

Waste of CP

Check http://ffxiv.lokyst.net/ blog for more details on how it works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

Basically the following, Innovation is only good when you don't have any stacks of IQ and losses effectiveness as your control increases.

...

3 Star an d 4 Star
The problem now is that as higher recipes come out, our level is still capped so no matter how much we decrease the level by, the penalty is still at the maximum. Which means that for those two crafts. Ingenuity 2 is useless because regardless of whether or not you use it, you will get 129 quality.

SH > BT = 129
SH > ING 2 > BT = 129

---

Innovation doesn't lose usefulness as IQ builds. For 0 durability loss and only 18 CP, it gives about the same boost to your BB as another IQ step, plus can be used to fish for a Good/Excellent condition.

Ingenuity II does boost your touches and synthesis on 3 and 4 star crafts.

407 control 3 star:
SH > BT = 133
SH > INGII > BT = 151

407 control 4 star:
SH > BT = 133
SH > INGII > BT = 141

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Innovation doesn't lose usefulness as IQ builds. For 0 durability loss and only 18 CP, it gives about the same boost to your BB as another IQ step, plus can be used to fish for a Good/Excellent condition.

Ingenuity II does boost your touches and synthesis on 3 and 4 star crafts.

---

I would have thought this was common sense and implied if you bothered to read the entire post but i'll add it in anyways.

Innovation is only good when you don't have any stacks of IQ and losses effectiveness as your control increases when compared to an ING 2 proc because ING 2 scales off of you current control while Innovation only scales off of your base control.

Unless there was a patch to readjust the level penalty, ING 2 should not change how much quality you get in 3 star and 4 star but i haven't done a 4 star in a while so i'll check and confirm your proposed stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

Innovation is only good when you don't have any stacks of IQ and losses effectiveness as your control increases when compared to an ING 2 proc because ING 2 scales off of you current control while Innovation only scales off of your base control.

---

At max stacks, Innovation > Ingenuity II for 4 star touches, Ingenuity II > Innovation for 3 star touches. The added bonus of Ingenuity II is that it can reduce the cost for your progress of a recipe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

Unless there was a patch to readjust the level penalty, ING 2 should not change how much quality you get in 3 star and 4 star but i haven't done a 4 star in a while so i'll check and confirm your proposed stats.

---

There was no patch adjustment, Ingenuity always increased quality on 3 stars, and always on 4 stars.

There was a patch that changed the behavior of Ingenuity, the same patch that introduced 3 star recipes. Your description of Ingenuity is what it did and still does to 2 star and below, 3+ star have been different since their introduction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

I would have thought this was common sense and implied if you bothered to read the entire post but i'll add it in anyways.

Innovation is only good when you don't have any stacks of IQ and losses effectiveness as your control increases when compared to an ING 2 proc because ING 2 scales off of you current control while Innovation only scales off of your base control.

Unless there was a patch to readjust the level penalty, ING 2 should not change how much quality you get in 3 star and 4 star but i haven't done a 4 star in a while so i'll check and confirm your proposed stats.

---

ING does increase quality by a bit, since apparently quality increases are also influenced by level difference. How much it actually increases is a different story, and whether or not does it justify the 32 CP cost.

Some numbers for BB, 407 control, first number is IQ count, some numbers may be off by 1 due to calculations after Good condition/Great Strides:

Code:

---

3*        base        INN        INGII        INN+INGII
08        717        869        813        985
09        842        1008        955        1143
10        978        1159        1108        1314
11        1125        1321        1275        1497

4*        base        INN        INGII        INN+INGII
08                866        763        924
09        840        1005                 
10        975        1156        1040       
11        1122

---

I usually go for innovation because it is cheaper. Honestly, what is even better than ING2 is to stretch your craft out longer and get more touches. One more successful touch will net you more benefit than either of those skills will. I used to try to save enough cp out to do ing2 and inn. Now I make sure I have enough for gs, bb, and sh, and will take chances purchasing durability for more touches. If I get some good conditions and have enough for inn and ing2, great. If not, I'm better off finishing at 10 stacks without them than at 8 stacks with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Some numbers for BB, 407 control, first number is IQ count, some numbers may be off by 1 due to calculations after Good condition/Great Strides:

*table*

---

So Innovation is indeed better in all cases for 3* and 4* crafting. Good to know