So what skills can we expect at lvl 60?

What are the odds that some class, say Culinarian, gets a better version of Steady Hand 2 as their lvl 60 skill?

Lets say Steady Hand III, increases success rate by 40%?

Think that could happen? Something to remove some of the incessant RNG from crafting?
Could also see a stronger version of Byregot's, say +30% per IQ stack?

What do you guys hope to see in the lvl 60 skills?

id prefer class advancements for all crafters.. better skills n gear XD

The skills would be in relation to people "catching up" from the i55 era surely as SE have pretty much thrown DoH lore out the window and gone with an aggressive progression structure where RNG wins out over skill. That, and those same skills will be used for the next tier of RNG crafting.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

What are the odds that some class, say Culinarian, gets a better version of Steady Hand 2 as their lvl 60 skill?

Lets say Steady Hand III, increases success rate by 40%?

Think that could happen? Something to remove some of the incessant RNG from crafting?
Could also see a stronger version of Byregot's, say +30% per IQ stack?

What do you guys hope to see in the lvl 60 skills?

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Incessant RNG in crafting isn't that bad. It's the RNG in materia (esp on any 1 slot item) that's horrible. At least you have some measure of control over your crafting RNG, it's not just hit a button and hope your 8% meld doesn't fail (again...)

Anyhow, I think they may want to make Byregot's a core ability instead of 50 CRP. The high end crafting rotation is basically centered around it, seems more appropriate for every DoH to have it by default without needing to waste a cross class slot on it.

Ability to cross class more than 10 skills

Yeah definetly 10+ cross class skills.

Other than that, think it will be a mix of more powerful abilities of the ones already available (like CS -> CS2 or WN -> WN2), but also completely new abilities.

I really hope they do give us also new abilities for more flexible and different rotations

I predict we will get one new skill, and it will not be cross-class but the same skill across all classes: Advanced Synthesis. 200% synthesis rate, 28 CP cost, 90% success rate. So, in other words, a meh skill that is situationally useful at best.

Remember, we're only going up ten levels, and cross-class skills only crop up every 13 or 22 levels. A 10 level increase seems like it's too soon to expect any new cross-class abilities.

As has been noted, though, gaining two new cross-class ability slots will make it worthwhile regardless of what new skills we get!

I'd like to see them go away from the current structure of leveling every class to 50 and cross classing the optimum rotation, effectively making all 8 crafting classes play identically to one another.

Maybe a job system that only lets you cross class with certain crafts, or limit cross class skill number. They'd need to revamp the recipes to not be absurd like they currently are.

I dont see cross skills going away. Id be major ticked off after all the work I put in to get where I am today. Dont see much revamping either. Probably a few new skills, some that all classes get and than a new cross skill. Im really hoping they add some content like more quests maybe some group crafting missions. we'll see :)

u can expect 5 star crafting and the need to have 15 IQ stacks and u need to hit excellent at least 5 times in a row to have a decent chance at HQ. Really......probably something like that xD

Actually, I would love to see an "anti-fishing-rng" skill added as a lvl 60 ability to the base set of crafting skills. - If they can implement this =)

"Favorable Conditions"
No CP Cost
Useable at 5+ IQ stacks.
Changes current condition to Excellent.
Causes ALL following conditions to be Poor for the remainder of the synthesis.

^^ this :)

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Originally Posted by Lemuel81

I dont see cross skills going away. Id be major ticked off after all the work I put in to get where I am today. Dont see much revamping either. Probably a few new skills, some that all classes get and than a new cross skill. Im really hoping they add some content like more quests maybe some group crafting missions. we'll see :)

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So you think it's good design that you need to level every single crafting class to 50 in order to effectively use the one or two classes that you are actually interested in?

What's the point of having class-specific skills if the end approach is to cross class all the important class skills so that all eight DoH classes play identically? Why not just skip that step and give all of these skills as base skills.

The only difference between BSM and CRP right now is whether you are making ingots or lumber, which is very underwhelming to me considering the lengths they've gone through with the crafting skill system.

You might be content with the way things are right now, but I think this could be more than the gimmicky WoW system they are pushing toward. The framework is already there.

Actually, I would find it interesting to have at least certain content that requires specific classes to craft specific things, and you can't use cross class. Especially if these synthesis are challenging synths. Different classes might actually start taking different approaches to completing their craft successfully, which would be the more interesting part.

Right now, once all your crafts are 50, and you have all your tools, and your gear is melded the same way (Artisan equips very accomodating here) the classes play exactly the same. Forcing Single Class could be fun. (I'm thinking, for crafting Airship Parts. You might components made by every class, and just like Ixali lock you out of cross class at some levels, maybe we'd need to use facilities that would give us a similar debuff) Maybe not permanent, but specific things that limit our cross class, and you would have to truly master THAT CLASS to reliably HQ.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

u can expect 5 star crafting and the need to have 15 IQ stacks and u need to hit excellent at least 5 times in a row to have a decent chance at HQ. Really......probably something like that xD

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15 IQ stacks is required to have a decent chance at HQ....when the max stack is 11... I can somewhat see this coming.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

Actually, I would find it interesting to have at least certain content that requires specific classes to craft specific things, and you can't use cross class. Especially if these synthesis are challenging synths. Different classes might actually start taking different approaches to completing their craft successfully, which would be the more interesting part.

Right now, once all your crafts are 50, and you have all your tools, and your gear is melded the same way (Artisan equips very accomodating here) the classes play exactly the same. Forcing Single Class could be fun. (I'm thinking, for crafting Airship Parts. You might components made by every class, and just like Ixali lock you out of cross class at some levels, maybe we'd need to use facilities that would give us a similar debuff) Maybe not permanent, but specific things that limit our cross class, and you would have to truly master THAT CLASS to reliably HQ.

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This is what I'm kind of getting at. It gets really old and boring when I switch from BSM to ALC to CRP and do all the same rotations in identical stats/melds with the only difference being whether I'm smacking ore, logs, or fish.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

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I think me and sibyll butted heads about this sort of thing back then, but they'd have to redo some of the classes in order for this to work (or straight up not have them involved in those crafting scenarios.) ALC for example, how can you design a craft to revolve around alchemy's cross skills when one of them is TotT? CRP relies on IQ stacks which can only go so high with your limited CP and MM being your only options to prolong a craft to build those stacks (on top of finishing the progress). LTW can prolong their crafts with WN II, but everything else falls into RNG for quaility increases, or starve yourself entirely of CP. You'd be trying to finish a 10-piece puzzle with only one piece.

Even for the ixali crafts that lock me out of cross skills, I still end up using the common base skills... I don't even use SHII anymore for these. Crafting as of right now is incredibly linear regardless of what class you are, if they want to differentiate they'd need to change the foundation (which more than likely takes a good amount of effort to do, and now it has to be weighted if its worth putting development time into over other content.) The way it is right now, there's no "mastering THAT class to HQ" unless they were to redo crafting and their skills as a whole.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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We probably did butt heads. I think the crafting system could use an overhaul and an expansion would be the most appropriate time to do this, which is what my point was. It'd be impossible to do this in a patch. Overall I think the skills are just very poorly balanced. You don't use many of the base class skills like Standard and Advanced Touch. Basic Synthesis is outclassed in literally every way by Careful Synthesis II as is Careful Synthesis I. Flawless Synthesis is useless. I've never used Observe. The Brands could be removed to be honest. Ingenuity I really serves no purpose once you get Ingenuity II other than being a bit cheaper. Rumination isn't awful, but Byregot's is more important.

Some of the more useless class skills would need to be rebalanced and/or new skills would need to be added for this to work well. They could still have cross class on generic recipes, but I think some depth could be gained from having recipes that were more focused on using class specific skill sets rather than the same old Hasty Touch spam.

One thing they could do is specialized team crafting for something as big as an airship. Like 2 or 3 people would take turns on each step with the enforced no-cross-skills. Buffs, durability and progress would be shared, but CP is individualized. At least that way you can have pieces of a puzzle coming together, rather than trying to attempt a craft with only a few (which goes back to me mentioning that some classes just aren't feasible for developing a craft to capitalize on their skills)

ALC
level 55. ToT 2 (Restore CP off of excellent cond).
level 60. Comfort Zone 2

ARM
level 55. RS 2 - Greater success rate
level 60. PbP 2 - Increases quality by 1/3 or just no cp cost.

BSM
level 55. Ingenuity 3
level 60. Turn it around, change a cond into a normal/good/excellent (rng)

CRP
level 55. Rumination 2.
level 60. Byregot's Blessing 2

CUL
level 55. Hasty Touch 2, More efficiency, same success rate.
level 60. Perhaps a Variation of Steady Hand or a CP less Reclaim, maybe both.

GSM
level 55. Manipulation 2
level 60. Innovation 2

LTW
level 55. Waste Not 3
level 60. Step Less, ToT no longer consume a step for the next 10 steps.

WVR
level 55. Careful Synth 3
level 60. Perfectionist, Restore CP for every successful increase to progress.

MISC.
IQ gets a rework to allow for more stacks or only half stacks being consumed per rumination or bb.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Honestly, something as simple as class specific traits targeted at class abilities (or even the shared abilities) would be a good start. Careful Syn II could be free for WVR and cost 15 CP as a cross-class (Careful Syn I would still be free). Hasty Touch and Rapid Synthesis could have 60% success rate for CUL and ARM. Rumination doesn't consume your IQ stacks when used by CRP, but can only be used once per synthesis. This would fit right in with how they already treat cross class skills with the DoW/M classes.

It's a simple change that makes the classes feel different without upsetting the already established norm of crafting. I still think that a lot of the base skills really need to get tuned so that they serve a purpose.

I don't know much about the team crafting. What have they said about it so far?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

One thing they could do is specialized team crafting for something as big as an airship. Like 2 or 3 people would take turns on each step with the enforced no-cross-skills. Buffs, durability and progress would be shared, but CP is individualized. At least that way you can have pieces of a puzzle coming together, rather than trying to attempt a craft with only a few (which goes back to me mentioning that some classes just aren't feasible for developing a craft to capitalize on their skills)

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Literally a group Synth, I love it. So you can remove everybodies cross class skills, but if you can get a group of 8 people together, then you have access to all of the skills. Great activity for events such as building Airships.

Like his post ++++++++

(Even though admitedly, I don't think I have access to 7 other crafters, and I hink I'm still the only 4* Crafter in my whole FC. Guess I'd be responsible for the finishing actions.)

I was literally throwing out suggestions they could do that doesn't require changing the entire foundation of what we have now; I haven't heard anything about team or group crafting straight out of the mouth.

Even if you did add traits, it wouldn't differentiate them enough to allow for incredibly specialized crafting without, again, redoing the skills as a whole. I mean I'm nitpicking your examples at this point, but CRP would still struggle to have the CP requirement to prolong a craft for high IQ stacks with just rumination, standard synthesis would outweight CSII if it had a CP cost (in nearly every scenario).

I mean it's mostly the same case as the DoW/DoM cross skills, the traits for the cross skills themselves don't really diffirentiate on how they're executed, just effectiveness. Not enough to make that big of a difference unless the class themselves play differently (which I can't say for DoH because of their specific skills requiring syngergy with cross skills)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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It was mostly a simple change that would at least differentiate them a small bit. I think the problem overall is the recipes are designed from the start with all the cross class skills being required, which I hated even back in 2.0. I thought it was absurd that you needed Byregot's and Hasty Touch/Steady Hand II to really do anything in 2* crafting. I mean the "difficulty" of their recipes have really only come from making quality bars massive to the point that you rely on RNG conditions for your BB and progression bars that require PbP and Rapdi Synth spam because no one ever used these skills prior to 2.2.

Also not to nitpick, but Standard Synthesis has a 90% success where CSII has 100%, so unless you have SH already up for something else CSII might be the cheaper option over SS. That'd be like saying that Basic Synthesis outweighs CSI in nearly every scenario.

But still many of the skills really need a rework out of the shear fact that you never use them. Standard and Advanced Touch stand out as the most obvious examples considering they are shared by all classes and don't cater to the quantity over quality touch spam to get IQ stacks.

I think opening more options for the crafting is less difficult than you are making it sound. Without cross class skills many DoHs in their current state would suffer, but this is because many of the base class skills serve no practical purpose. So why not just start by making those more practical to use. The fact that these skills have been left like this for so long is just a joke.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

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> It wouldn't differentiate them that much to make any difference like I mentioned; that's like comparing a MNK with traited mantra and a MNK that doesn't have untraited mantra (and I'm using both as MNKs because all DoH classes are more or less the same in their crafting styles).

Another thing is, how do you make a step-by-step progress "difficult" outside of the numbers? More or less, everything can be planned out and the only factor is the probability of success %s and the conditions, then its a matter of meeting the required stats to minimize the former (CP to use basic syn + SH II, craftsmanship to complete in X amount of synthesis, and control to increase quality to Y amount)

> That's what I meant by "nearly every scenario". When I'm doing 3 or 4* crafts, I always start with PbP and rapid syn first, then I finish it at the end with CSII. Near the end, I always use a BB finisher anyway, so I'm always going to be under the influence of SHI (which then boosts the success rate of standard synthesis). If both CSII and A.syn costs 15 CP, why would I ever use CSII when I'm under the effects of SH (which is always the case after my BB finisher and that I'm going to be finishing a craft immediately right after).

> I use Advanced in cixali crafts that lock me out of cross skills and are 40 durability. These still have a place to play if you can spare the CP, such as capitalizing a good or excellent condition at the beginning of a craft. Brands are for furnishing and vintage equips. The only one I'll give is flawless synthesis, it only has a place in extremely low level crafts.

> And that's the thing, they have to redo the base skills if they were to remove the homogenization from cross classes. I wouldn't say that the base skills are a joke since they still have their place (with the exception of flawless), but it's because that they're shared as the baseline skills for all crafting classes, you can't realistically make them have a different crating method without giving them unique baseline skills (skills that aren't cross classed and not shared between all the DoHs)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Another thing is, how do you make a step-by-step progress "difficult" outside of the numbers? More or less, everything can be planned out and the only factor is the probability of success %s and the conditions, then its a matter of meeting the required stats to minimize the former (CP to use basic syn + SH II, craftsmanship to complete in X amount of synthesis, and control to increase quality to Y amount)

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I realize an optimal rotation is unavoidable. I'd rather that they have 8 different, optimal rotations (one for each of the DoHs) than have one ubiquitous rotation. That's my point.

Not sure on new cross class skills. I can only think of two skills that would need to be reworked. It would be helpful to have an extra 2 slots to have 12 or more skills. At this time I can get the 10 main skills I need in, though there are 2 more I would like to add to the rotation. The Inner Quiet would be nice to go over 11. I have rotations with luck that can hit 14 times but only stacks to 11. Beyond gear, having more durability would be nice. 120 durability would be a start. Even at current cp levels there is a lot that can be done here. As for rng, that is here to stay. I don't see them easing up on that in 3.0. One last thought, up the ilvl we can craft. i110 is very expensive and has yet to give any meaningful recovery of gil. I like the way we got the i110 mats and the desynth working in 2.4, for all that we should be making i115 to i120 gear. About 80% of gil I make is still at 2 star crafting and below since patch 2.4.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

So you think it's good design that you need to level every single crafting class to 50 in order to effectively use the one or two classes that you are actually interested in?

You might be content with the way things are right now, but I think this could be more than the gimmicky WoW system they are pushing toward. The framework is already there.

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You got all that from my post heh? Because i never said any of those things. I agree with you. I would just be annoyed in general that i went through all that work for nothing, i.e incoming major changes to class skills.

Well, here's an idea for making the other touches useful, and perhaps (hopefully) killing the Hasty Touch rng rotation.

Raise the max number of IQ stacks from 10 to 20.
Hasty Touch and Basic Touch give 1 IQ.
Standard Touch gives 2 IQ.
Advanced Touch gives 3 IQ.

Basic, Standard, and Advanced Touches now all have a 70% base success rate.

Under this system, if I so choose, I can do SH2 and 4 Advanced Touch, costing 217 CP, for 12 stacks of IQ. Suddenly quality isn't so bad.
I still need 6 turns worth of progress, and of course BB, that requires a total of 110 durability, so lets say Master's Mend, CP total is 217 + 92(MM) + 22(SH) + 15*2(PbP) + 32(GS) + 24(BB) - 14(CZ) + 18(IQ) = 419 CP...
Yeah, 419 CP is a little more than what is currently available... But you get the idea.

The fact that we have such MASSIVE quality bars forces us to build up IQ stacks. However the most cost efficient way to do so is HT, this needs to change. If the other touches gave more IQ stacks... hell what if we had an ability which just gave IQ stacks???

Consider this guys, an ability that basically lets you trade CP for IQ stacks, along with the above suggestion.
You can use touches to get IQ and quality. Or you can build only IQ, and throw REPEATED Byregot's, though that may hinge on condition fishing, while the touches method should work 100% of the time.
Well 417 CP is what,

What if they just implement a job system for the DoH similar to the DoW and DoM? You could equip a specific company issue tool (or soul stone type item if you prefer) to change into a master crafting class. (I’m sure you'd need 50 FCIII, 70 oaknots, and a rare unicorn that appears every other Thursday to obtain it, but that’s beside the point). They can add job specific actions while limiting available cross class skills and specialize recipes towards each class without having to rework the whole system.

Ex: The high-level ARM recipes would be heavy in progress so you’ll need RS and PBP to complete the synthesis, but not need as many touches to HQ. People will also want to start melding their ARM gear towards craftsmanship and less control. If people want to go at them without the jobs and use tons of cross-class skills and pray to the RNG gods they can, but knowing different jobs would definitely improve the chances of HQ goods.

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Originally Posted by Fife_Muggins

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Already tried discussing that a bit; Some classes just straight up won't work with this in mind in the current design. ALC would be heavily reliant on RNG, CRP can't realistically build up that high of IQ stacks to make use out of BB or rumination, etc etc. You'd be trying to finish a 100 piece puzzle with only 10 pieces.