Am I the only one who finds these two skills utterly worthless?
Owning a keyboard is superior to Malmsight (in both range and utility), and Detect is rendered moot by AoE skills which are on GCD and deal damage.
I think they'd both be better as PvP status effects which last for a minute... Bard keeps Detect on and hangs out near mages to protect from Hide. Ninja switches between Detect for the same reasons, and Malmsight for scouting, maybe increase the range on Malmsight. Probably have them wear off in combat as well, to prevent them being overpowered, Detect could still get off its short burst to undo Hide in such a situation I guess. Added benefit for Ninja is they wouldn't wipe Hide, which I wish Malmsight didn't do (again, why would I use Malmsight when I can just tell my party/alliance how many enemies there are while hidden and from a greater range?).
Malmsight and Detect
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11-20-2014, 06:57 PMNalienMalmsight and Detect
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11-20-2014, 08:18 PMSinsain
malmsight is pretty worthless unless your team has map up entire fight. Playing as a ninja in pvp atm, detect is vital sorry to disagree with you, but this saves lives lol. As for a minute long lasting detect.. they might as well take hide out if thats the case, my main targets are healers (preferably without aldo, stoneskin, protect; or mages of any sort) a bard hovering around a caster with detect would literally render hide useless which i find key for scouting flags in frontlines atm.
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11-20-2014, 08:47 PMNalien
Detect is not vital. You can easily replace it with any AoE attack. Stuff like Shadow Flare makes it completely redundant. Given its fire and forget use and 180/150 second cooldown, it is a worthless skill in PvP. A sustained Detect at least brings its use up to par with skills like Shadow Flare.
Currently if you see someone use Hide, you can counter it on most Jobs (Freeze on their last known location, Shadow Flare, Flaming Arrow, Miasma II, Death Blossom, the list goes on). If you didn't see them use Hide, you're not going to know to use Detect anyway. It is an extremely weak skill, marginally better than Malmsight. A full minute (which still gives Ninjas more than a minutes window to strike unless there are multiple players with Detect around) may be too long, but as it stands it's a pathetically useless skill. Just pop Shadow Flare and sit in the middle of it, much more effective.
As for Malmsight, that 50y range and inability to use it without dropping Hide just make it completely worthless. The fact that on the map it just gives you a cluster of dots even more so, I can just tell my party the numbers, and even Jobs of people I'm scouting. I toyed around with the idea of making a macro for it ("Enemies sighted <pos>" or something), but no, it's just an awfully useless skill... I'd honestly rather see it dropped for an incombat useable Hide, but people would probably consider that overpowered, even given the fact that Jobs like Black Mage can just watch you use Hide and then Freeze you... -
11-20-2014, 10:49 PMyuixjfaYes please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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11-21-2014, 01:00 AMAtreus
I dunno, for us, Detect has had its glorious moments. It's wonderful for quickly checking a new location of interest. I have yet to notice Malmsight in action though.
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11-21-2014, 01:28 AMNalienI know right, either that or they can change regular Hide so I don't have to run half way across the map to use it again when enemies retreat... That's getting real old, real fast...Quote:
Originally Posted by yuixjfa
Sure, it's better than Malmsight, but its utility still seems extremely limited when I can just put Doton down and be immune to Trick Attack anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreus
Were it effectively just a larger Doton/ShadowFlare/BurningArrow ground based AoE that does no damage but reveals any Ninjas who walk into it, I'd find it a lot more useful. Heck, if it applied a debuff to the hidden Ninja that would be better. As it stands if I see someone use Hide I can just run up and Death Blossom them for 100 potency, instead of blowing a 180 second cooldown. If I don't see a Ninja use Hide, I wont waste a 180 second cooldown on "what if", I'll just put Doton down and render Trick Attack moot.
I'd probably rather see Mijin Gakure over Malmsight. I honestly cannot fathom why they bothered with such a useless skill. Are there console players out there who don't have a keyboard?
Actually, yeah... Mijin Gakure please. Would be great for Frontlines since I can turn a death that would give the enemies points, into a death which damages them and gives them nothing. Even somewhat OK for Wolves' Den (not that that's a thing) if you coordinate with your healer. If anything, Malmsight should be a skill everyone gets, similar to Purify... -
11-21-2014, 02:43 AMVandril
I've been playing Frontlines with Ninja for a while now, and I'll agree that I've yet to find even a small use for Malmsight. It should be a fairly long duration buff (with a CD maybe 2x longer than its duration) that adds all visible (as in, not hidden) enemy targets within a certain range of radius of the Ninja to appear on the minimap (and zone map) for all players in your party. Or maybe even a passive that's always active with the same effect.
Detect, however, is quite useful. It's niche, sure, but useful. I use it when scouting bases, or as soon as I open in a big battle for a node (as to catch hidden enemy Ninja before they can open, and thusly aid my group). My only problem with Detect isn't that it's a useless skill, but that there's really only one class with Hide, anyway - Ninja. Once more classes get to use Hide (if any more are to come), then it'll become a bit more useful.
Also, Detect can NOT be replaced as a scouting tool by any other AoE. Its field of effect is HUGE. No damaging AoE is that large. -
11-21-2014, 03:05 AMNalienThe thing is, they don't need to be. Once I'm sitting in an AoE the Ninjas only advantage is a surprise Overwhelm, something they can do just as easily the moment they see Detect wipe Hide. Were Detect to have an additional effect on enemies who are Hidden, I'd find it much more useful, though still niche.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandril
The current pay off verses AoE attacks is certainly that Detect has greater range, but that just isn't particularly useful at all. If I discover a Hidden Ninja, the advantage should be mine, instead they have the advantage because Detect does nothing and they still know I'm there, while I'm going "Did Detect uncover anyone?". Were they at least hit with Stun it would be a very different story. Wouldn't even have to be a default effect, I'd gladly pay 4AP to have Detect really ruin a Ninjas day instead of just making them go "Awww, I don't get to Trick Attack" right as they hit me with Overwhelm. OK I'd rather be Stunned than hit with Trick Attack, but I'm still at a disadvantage. -
11-22-2014, 12:49 AMVandrilI get what you're saying, but I still don't quite agree that Detect is as underwhelming as you suggest. Trick/Surprise Attacks can be absolutely essential in taking out an enemy healer in a group. If something brings you out of hide, you need to use your Mundras to use them, which means missing out on a Raiton or a utility ninjutsu. A Ninja being taken out of Hide prematurely is actually a huge loss of burst, which does in fact put the user of Detect at an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
And, not to nitpick, but there's a mild flaw to your logic involving Overwhelm: they can use it whether they get off Trick Attack or not. It's not "getting hit by the stun instead of TA", it's "getting hit with TA AND a stun". That stun will be hitting you (or someone else) either way.
Also, standing in an AoE only really protects the people standing in it. It's usually a bad idea to have so many people cluttered into a small area in a game that has Black Mages and Caster LB. :P That, and the AoEs only damage every couple of seconds. It's possible to enter an AoE and still get off a Trick Attack, with some luck and timing. I do it all the time, as I use sprint before I Hide, since I have no TP issues.
To summarize, Detect does have a niche that other AoEs just cannot fill. I am not arguing that it shouldn't be buffed in some way, but I am arguing against the fact that it's useless or extremely underwhelming. It can quite literally tip a battle in your and your team's favor if you get lucky/use it at the right time when the enemy has a Ninja or three.
If it were to be buffed, I'd love for it to be usable while Hidden without it breaking Hidden. Or maybe a lower CD. I don't want it to have a Stun, due to diminishing returns and the like, but maybe it could have a slow or heavy effect on targets taken out of Hidden. -
11-22-2014, 01:07 AMNalien
We'll just have to agree to disagree on its current usefulness. Given most of the time I would currently use it is when I see a Ninja use Hide, I'm more likely to use Death Blossom on them, rather than something with such a steep cooldown. Every time I use it it feels like a waste, because I use it when I don't know a Ninja is there, and usually there isn't. And yeah, Stun was just an example. I think it would be more poetic to hit them with the same damage taken debuff Trick Attack has :P
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11-22-2014, 06:52 AMVandrilFair enough. I can understand wishing it were something that actually had some sort of hint as to when to use it so that it always had some sort of real use. I find it useful enough, but maybe I'm just content with the rest of my toolkit or have gotten lucky with it in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Oh, that's just dastardly delicious! I want this now. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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11-23-2014, 11:50 PMNalien
You know, thinking about it, I don't really like many of the PvP Skills... Most of them are useful, sure, but they're just additional Skills, nothing more... One issue I've always had with PvP is the bare bones Class Synergies. Would be nice if they could rework PvP Skills to involve teamwork.
Lets say I use Malmsight and spot 3 enemies with it heading towards OP. I run back to OP before they get there, and the Paladin uses Testudo on me, and its potency is now proportional to the number of enemies I spotted. I scouted, and as a result we're better prepared to deal with the attack. Apply that kind of synergy more Jobs and I think it'd be quite fun.
Who am I kidding though, no way they'd do something like that in Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm of Handholding. Still, I guess they could make Malmsight remotely useful if they applied that kind of effect to it, even if it is something the Ninja just solos. Use Malmsight, get an Aetherflow style status effect with stacks equal to the number of enemies spotted, use another Skill to apply a buff proportional to the number of stacks and just make it like Hide (cannot use in combat) to balance it out... Perhaps also have it buff the enemy if you're killed with a stack, treat it as information gathering; would work well with a Mijin Gakure skill as well ("Oh crap they found me and I have the Malmsight buff... BETTER BLOW MYSELF UP!").
Gods what I'd give to have Skill Trees in PvP with Scout on one side, and Stealth on the other for Ninja...