I am a warrior who tanks things. You guys are Ninja who do good DPS. This is about lv 50 content.
So stop attempting to overwrite my slashing debuff and enjoy the fact you don't have to babysit a debuff. You are making yourself bad by doing this. I have to put it up because of Maim. You put it up just because. If you are running with a WAR that can add two numbers together, they are using Storms Eye. So just don't even think about Dancing Edge.
It makes me rage when I do Eye and not a second later, Dancing Edge pops up over it.
/vent
PSA: NIN and WAR relations
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11-15-2014, 08:48 PMAsieridPSA: NIN and WAR relations
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11-15-2014, 09:52 PMExstal
It would help if you kept it up 100% of the time, instead of 83.3% of the time forcing use to reapply it ourselves.
Thanks,
All Ninjas -
11-16-2014, 12:39 AMAkashiXI
Yeah, it's difficult keeping Eye up 100%. If I'm doing dungeons, I'm generally doing Butchers(just at the start)/Eye/Butchers/Butchers. Those 2 butchers will give you about 3~4 seconds of relay until your eye will overlap, which makes it difficult to reapply if you're also using Inner (or the bad luck of being pacified).
I've come to the conclusion that if a Ninja is overlapping my Eye, I'll use path instead. Everyone wins, I guess :< -
11-16-2014, 12:48 AMKenji1134
Yeah, although War does generally have strong ST hate generation, if they must maintain Path and Eye, well...
BB Combo = 150+200*3+280*5 = 2150 base.
SP Combo = 150+190+250 = 590 base.
SE Combo = 150+190+270 = 610 base.
And Buffs/Stance amount to x1.2 (Maim) x.75 (Defiance) x2 (Defiance) = 1.8x buff/stance mod.
So a rotation of SP-BB-BB, the standard tanking rotation, is 4890 in 9 gcds, so ~ 217/sec, x1.8 from buffs/Defiance is 391, and I'd say most wars have about a 1.4ish potency value around this gear level... I think? So thats 547 hate/sec, with SP-BB-BB. Meaning if someone is pushing 550 dps, they will outaggro the Warrior.
Now, SE-SP-BB, maintaining both, cause you ALWAYS want SP up when tanking, is 3350*1.1 in 9 gcds, or 413/sec x1.8 x1.4 potency value is... 376 hate/sec... That is a pretty big drop, thats 68% of the hate output of the SP-BB-BB rotation.
Then again, this is just "math".
Why not just have a 110 Ninja and a 110 Warrior have an aggro fight on a dummy? Both with, and without cooldowns. I imagine that with cooldowns, the Warrior will hold aggro for a while with SE-SP-BB, but eventually lose.
Though without CD's, and with the Warrior using SE-SP-BB, I am pretty sure the Ninja (or a Monk) will pull off within 30 seconds. -
11-16-2014, 12:56 AMArkenne
Well, for starters, its pretty easy to forget since it becomes a force of habit, you know, battling all the time faring by outselves, having a basic rotation that and all, it often also happens that we overwrite our own «Dancing Edge» when there are 2 or more Ninjas (FATE runs anyone)
It often comes to me 2 or 3 rotations later that "oh, there is a warrior in this party, teehee :v" before stop doing «Dancing Edge» and feel like I have way too much free time :|
It is helpful and appreciated! However, I still have yet to get my War to lvl 50, and Storm's Eye is the very last skill, isnt it? Can you be so kind as of posting the skill debuff icon? I dont know it. -
11-16-2014, 01:40 AMSpookyGhostQuote:
Originally Posted by AkashiXI
Tomahawk->Brutal Swing->Heavy Swing->Unchained->Maim->Berserk->Storm's Eye->Internal Release->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder->Butcher's Block->Heavy Swing->Inner Beast->Maim->Storm's Eye->Pacificed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji1134
If you have enough SS, you can also throw in a Fracture after the Butcher's Block. From this point on you can rotate SP and SE while never losing hate to anyone outside of a PLD in Shield Oath. SP->BB->BB also isn't the standard tanking rotation, you don't BB unless you need more aggro. It's either SE->BB or SE->SP. Never SP->BB. You also don't always want SP up when tanking, if you outgear the content you can forego it all together and SE->BB forever. My i112 (or w/e he is) NIN friend isn't on, but I can test later and let you know if he can ever pull off me with this but as far as my experience goes, I've done this with an i90 axe vs i115 weapon DPS and have never lost hate.
IMO, WAR should always have SE up and NIN should never have to apply DE. -
11-16-2014, 02:53 AMLeonusIf you aren't gonna keep it up 100% of the time(or close), I'm gonna do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asierid
I'm making myself bad if ssomeone isn't going to apply it, so it's either me or you, pick one. If you don't keep it up, I will.
Don't you dare complain about it either.
/end vent. -
11-16-2014, 03:03 AMExiaQuanta
Really its the mentality of "Do I trust PUGs that they know what they are doing?" and for me personally, 60% of the time LOL. But than again, If you are able to notice that the WAR is putting up the debuff than you can opt out to stop o3o.
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11-16-2014, 06:13 AMAsierid
It really isn't hard to keep Eye up 100% of the time, on bosses that is (Trash dies too fast these days to even bother). Attempting to maintain both Eye and Path just doesn't work. Just rotate Eye and BB every rotation and never have a problem with hate, especially after the Unchained rotation in the beginning. As I said earlier, any WAR that can't do this shouldn't be tanking, it really isn't hard.
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11-16-2014, 07:38 AMSleighI'm confused why you choose SE > BB X 2. Yes, it's more aggro, but SE > BB > SE > BB is more than sufficient, especially with a proper opener.Quote:
Originally Posted by AkashiXI
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11-17-2014, 04:24 AMRaizeGraymalkinThis. I hate playing guessing games and seeing if WARs are actually gonna put it up or not. Hell half the time they don't. I'd rather it become the standard for Ninja's to keep it up instead honestly, partly because I can rely on myself and also it's more fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
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11-17-2014, 04:45 AMabzoluut
Or you can just apply storm's path on the mob, win win.
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11-17-2014, 05:18 AMZophar
See, now the problem is with inconsistency in pugs. I play both nin and war, and I notice the same exact thing in either case. I'll put up my SE/DE and it will keep getting overwritten, so I stop. then after a period, I notice, no one else is putting either up, so I start doing it again, just to be overwritten again, and the cycle repeats. I can keep it up 100% of the time. so if nobody else can, I will. Regardless of my job or the party makeup. Of course, if there is a fresh SE/DE up, I'll just toss in another AE instead. It's not hard to pay attention to things like that. And, all else fails. Storms Path. Why not? lol
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11-17-2014, 05:49 AMCraiger
If you have it up all of the time, sure I won't use Dancing Edge, but I don't trust any WAR, unless I know them...
Most WAR's I'm grouped with doesn't keep the debuff up 100% of the time, and a lot doesn't even keep it up more than like 60% of the time...
Since I always apply Dancing Edge the first combo (which you should do), I can just wait and see when it's overwritten... Many times it's not even overwritten at all, and I do another Dancing Edge, which after a while gets overwritten. Even a few seconds of downtime can make a big difference in DPS.
I can usually see pretty early on if the WAR knows what he's doing... and if he does, I will try to look for his Storm's Eye debuff, to see how much downtime there is between them. If there is too big of a gab, don't expect me to keep track of it throughout the fight, I will simply use Dancing Edge every time it's down... -
11-17-2014, 12:35 PMGruntler
I came in expecting the warrior to ask for Goad. Instead, the warrior is asking to make my job easier. This is pleasant and refreshing.
/ac Goad Asierid -
11-17-2014, 03:23 PMAlistaireSee that's the thing: you almost never need storm's path in dungeons. And you have to be seriously undergeared to lose hate on bosses even if you alternate path/eye combos. Best DPS: SE/BB/SE/BB etc. Best utility and still maintain hate: SE/SP/SE/SP etc. Never a reason for dancing edge on bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
When I'm on WAR and have a nin even on trash pulls I do a few overpowers than SE combo on each mob.
But overall there's no need for anyone to get upset; when I see a NIN do dancing edge I just politely say "I got this" and they go with it. -
11-17-2014, 04:24 PMCraigerI wish everyone was like you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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11-17-2014, 05:05 PMFelessanThis one in particular is pretty common as I usually not looking at boss status bar every second, but instead plan what to execute for next several steps based on remaining time/cooldowns, especially in movement heavy fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asierid
As in general... 1) Nin should know how SE debuff icon looks like (not everyone does), 2) They should notice it somewhere in 15 other debuff icons, 3) They should be sure they you'll reapply it in time.
Personally I clip SE with DE if I see 4 sec or less on SE. -
11-17-2014, 11:33 PMtreuhavik
It's definitely a bit more tricky to manage when playing with WARs you don't know. Even when I'm playing with my static, I'll usually put up DE in my opener to help both of us out until he get's to using SE more regularly. I do the same thing in dungeons, watching to see if they're going to be any kind of consistent with it. It certainly helps to have my target bar about mid-screen with my status effects bar just under it (with a giant Ninjitsu button under that), but perhaps UI config is a topic for another NIN thread. Either way, in dungeons, 9x/10, WARs don't use SE at all...and we're all creatures of habit.
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11-18-2014, 01:39 AMEhayte
It makes me rage when a WAR says, "Don't use DE, I will handle" then its not up for my TA and AE >.<
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11-18-2014, 02:34 AMAkashiXII was mainly talking dungeons, sorry. With incoming burst damage, and not having unchained and zerk for every pull, it's what I normally do to maintain hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
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11-19-2014, 04:10 AMDrtoxicmedica
As a warrior myself it has been pretty hard to get use to, but if I see a ninja in the party I just opt to leave SE out. The ninja is going to do it out of habit anyways so let them it's not like it's gonna prevent clearing said content. I feel as though unless the ninja asks me specially to keep SE up for them they'll take care of it themselves naturally.
Besides I see most warrior just let the buffs fall off anyways so I see why ninjas don't automatically trust the war is gonna keep them up 100%
Just my 2 cents -
11-20-2014, 05:56 AMShaolinMikePretty much this. As a NIN, I feel like "WAR, I'll f**k this duck, you just hold the head."Quote:
Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica
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11-20-2014, 06:40 AMEricCartmenez
As a NIN, Dancing Edge is a logical part of my combos, so long as I can get on the flank of whatever it is that I'm attacking. I get an attack of 260 vs 100 if performed from the flank, so if I'm in position, I'm all about hitting for that much more damage. I'm not 100%, but I would think that the status that is not stacked is the 10% slash resistance. So what if that resistance comes from the NIN or the WAR? I've been in several fights as NIN up through 1st Coil, and I have yet to have a WAR ask me for anything but Goad. Maybe the health regeneration component is more a problem in PvP where the target is getting healed?
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11-20-2014, 06:58 AMViridianaThere's no positional requirement for DE. That's a mistake on the English tooltip.Quote:
Originally Posted by EricCartmenez
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11-20-2014, 07:10 AMAltijacek
Oh my god at the silliness in this thread. All issues on both side can be avoided easily by saying...
Hey bro don't worry I'll use storm combo so don't dancing edge.
Or vice versa. Take 10 seconds max to type that, half a second to press a macro with it. -
11-20-2014, 08:11 AMAlistaire
It's a) more of a dps loss for nin to do it and b) more naturally fits into WAR's rotation they're going to do anyway in dungeons vs single targets. Easy choice.
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11-20-2014, 10:53 PMEricCartmenezThanks, I was not aware.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
The status effect of 10% slash resistance is identical, so how is it a loss for a NIN to do this? It fits EXACTLY into my NIN combo rotation and provides an extra 160 (260 vs 100) damage on top of dropping the status effect, therefore, my damage as a DPS is increased by using it vs not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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11-20-2014, 10:59 PMtreuhavikBecause instead of using thisQuote:
Originally Posted by EricCartmenez
Dancing Edge
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Gust Slash Potency: 260.
Combo Bonus: Decreases target's slashing resistance by 10% and HP recovery via healing magic by 20%
Duration: 20s
Cannot be stacked with the Storm's Eye status.
You could be using this
Aeolian Edge
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Gust Slash Potency: 320 -
11-20-2014, 11:24 PMEricCartmenezI'll be damned, I screwed that one up. Thanks. <added> Actually, that's a normal rotation for me, but I drop edge first. Maybe it's because I have had a lot of PAL's or maybe because a lot of WAR's didn't use their status. I only know that when I saw the need, I used it.Quote:
Originally Posted by treuhavik
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11-22-2014, 02:58 AMIllya
If you're on content that actually matters, and by that I mean Coil, then you're in a static with your Ninja and you should be working it out with him to optimize SE/DE uptime, especially since the Warrior is also trying to put SP up for damage mitigation. SP mitigates damage on the entire party and I personally prioritize keeping SP up for big incoming damage spikes over ensuring SE has 100% uptime when we are on progression.
If you're on any other content, then "Who Gives a F___" applies here. If the Ninja wants to use DE, let him. If you want to use SE, use it. Who gives a f___, there isn't even a DPS check worth mentioning where this even matters outside of the Coil. -
11-22-2014, 04:33 AMEricCartmenez
Thanks, Illya, cause there's never an answer that's always right, and in some of these battles it's "so f-n what." What if you're with a WAR that doesn't put it up? What if you're working with the PAL? I got to thinking about what you said, and I've been farming coil one for glamour gear and stuff, so I became a little more conscious of whether the warriors I worked with were using Storm's Eye. Even though this was first turn (1-5), I got a good mix of WAR and PAL. I only noticed the SE effect once out of about 12 runs with WAR's. To be fair, I never used DE with a WAR so that no one could say I was overwriting his status effect. I didn't say anything because these were PUG's and I would have come off as a douche, so I just made note. It was only during turn 5 with Twintania that I noticed the WAR applying Storm's Eye consistently.