Dark Knight Dilemma

I just want to start off saying I'm super excited for Dark Knight.
It's gonna be a tanking job that uses dark magic and greatswords. This is good cause the game is desperately hurting for tanks, and a lot of players have been asking for a greatsword class.

Greatswords AND dark magic??? What's not to like???
Well....
There is...just one... itty bitty problem...

Now, I've never played FFXI and from what I've heard I wouldn't like it very much. BUT If there's one thing I do like just from appearances.. is the extreme diversity. There's SO many classes, 22 in fact! Personally I would love to see this feat repeated or even bested here in XIV. Obviously this'll take time. So I'm thinking way ahead in the future with this post.

So here it is, the dilemma with Dark Knight...

They use Greatswords

I love Greatswords, I do. BUT... I think Dark Knight has a weapon very much suited to them and not so much any other job...

Sycthes

In FFXI their renowned for being the the shadowy armor clad warrior wielding a weapon best used for reaping souls. Now I don't want XIV to be like XI at all, but who else could better use the scythe as a weapon? in XI DRKs, WARs, BLMs, and Beastmasters could all use Scythes so if DRK uses Greatswords that leaves us with.... BMS..

My only gripe is that Greatswords could be used by SO MANY other jobs throughout FF lore, and Scythes are so limited. So if DRK uses Greatswords no one else will. And if we're aiming for the goal of a ton of classes/jobs, who other than DRK is best suited for Scythes?

I get it. The game needs more tanks, and the fans want greatswords. but from my understanding the fans were thinking for DPS purposes. (myself included)
So why not give DRKs Scythes? Nothing wrong with a fat-bladed scythe for tanking. And give the DPS their greatsword in another job. There's plenty of options, and I don't think many people who are looking forward to DRK would be upset by the change. I know a lot of XI vets would be happy, and I'd be happy cause it means Greatsword can(and certainly would) still be used. Even if that means no greatsword this year, but more jobs in total once the game is done expanding.

Lastly, it's not that I desperately want to see DRK use Scythes or that I even want Scythes as a weapon in the game. I'm still super psyched for DRK. It's that I desperately love and want diversity. More races, classes, jobs, City-states.

So tell me what you think. Agree?;) Disagree?:mad:
Thoughts on DRK and how it'll affect the game in the near/far?

To me, Dark Knight is all about swords. Scythe is just a silly FFXI thing. Also, its still possible to have a Greatsword wielding DPS class, or something similar (Samurai?). Scholar and Summoner both use books, you know.

Unless we fight wheat-elementals in the future, Scythe is not a suitable weapon for combat.

As for the 22 jobs in FFXI, it's indeed pretty impressive...except the balance was absolutely destroyed early on, and each patch's purpose was to ruin previously overpowered jobs while boosting useless ones.

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Originally Posted by Veerne

Also, its still possible to have a Greatsword wielding DPS class, or something similar (Samurai?). Scholar and Summoner both use books, you know.

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Especially when Katanas are far more different from swords than books are from...well, other books ;)

Good Point XI is really the only place we see Scythes.
However, SMN and SCH branch from the ACN class. And DRK will not have a Class. So if they follow that trend I don't think DRK will have a parallel like SMN & SCH. then again they don't have to follow that trend. The fact that DRK has no base class at all is proof enough lol.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Unless we fight wheat-elementals in the future...

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Never actually played XI so I never heard about the balancing issues. 22 jobs may have just been too many. :/ Hopefully if that's attempted again this dev team can handle it better.

I've never played FFXI but the whole Dark Knight using scythes thing always sounded terrible to me... I mean, they are knights, not farmers lol.

Besides, in every other FF game Dark Knights have always used swords and, if you think about it, there aren't really any other classic FF jobs left who could use greatswords (red mage, blue mage and mystic knight maybe, but a 1-handed sword would fit them much better imho).

Taking ideas from XI is like taking car parts from a ten year old Honda to replace parts in a brand new Ferrari (FFXIV). Let's not and say we did.

OP do has a point. Scythe in XI has weapon skill grade of A+ for DK.

On the contrary, the only job with weapon skill grade A+ for great sword are Rune Fencer, which is released on the latest expansion Adoulin, Such a shame GS became primary choice for DK, which might eliminate any possibility for having Rune Fencer job in XIV.

http://i.imgur.com/2OgFQij.jpg

And btw, Rune Fencer are a tank job in XI, while DK kinda more into DD-related. But I guess different game means different style.

Welll....since it's deemed to be a Tank Class....
Looks like it's spun off DRK from the updated FF Tactics: War of the Lions.

If it was a DD class. A Death Scythe type weapon would probably work and be pretty cool.
(Magus type build from Chrono Trigger)

I'm pretty excited for it as a Tank. Will definitely have to get back into tanking when it's released.

I hate scythes. They are not weapons, they are farming tools. Yes, Death "wields" a scythe but that is b/c Death harvests, you know farming, souls. Souls are the crop and he is the farmer. Scythes are terrible weapons. The War Scythe is even just a improvised weapon of peasants. The blade was turned 90 degree to make it usable in combat.

I like my death dealing knight of darkness to use a functional weapon, not a impracticable stylized one.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

OP do has a point. Scythe in XI has weapon skill grade of A+ for DK.

On the contrary, the only job with weapon skill grade A+ for great sword are Rune Fencer, which is released on the latest expansion Adoulin, Such a shame GS became primary choice for DK, which might eliminate any possibility for having Rune Fencer job in XIV.

http://i.imgur.com/2OgFQij.jpg

And btw, Rune Fencer are a tank job in XI, while DK kinda more into DD-related. But I guess different game means different style.

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If Rune Fencer or something similar is ever introduced in XIV, I think I'd prefer them having rapiers... You know, for fencing. Regardless of whether or not they're a tank or dps role. They could share the weapon with Red Mage, assuming they share the same base class.

And OP... While I do agree with you about wanting tons of new jobs, it has been said that they don't want to add a bunch of jobs just for the sake of it. They don't want gimmicky jobs - they want to introduce jobs that will fill a specific niche that we don't already have.

I'm all for gimmicks though, personally. =P

To be fair to the OP, there were scythes made specifically for war. The blade for those were not mounted perpendicularly like the farming scythes but were parallel. It resembled a polearm or naginata in that regard, so the aesthetics are somewhat different.

Anyway, I don't have a particular preference. I think greatsword is a suitable weapon for the ffxiv dark knight though. Botanists already use scythes, and lancers use halberds/polearms. I can understand why the team wouldn't want to double their workload to create new models, names, and animations like they did for daggers with gladiator.

The only game DRK ever used a scythe was FFXI. Before that it used swords and even shields, to add variety they went with greatsword as that was one of the requested weapon types.

Either way a scythe is a stupid weapon, especially the sickle kind that are actually made for farming. Only thing I'll ever accept to use a scythe is death.

Why always so much love for such a silly, tacky, and grossly impractical weapon? Scythe is for threshing wheat or bad characters in bad anime. That's about it.

I feel like when you stick to more realistic physics that the scythe is not a good weapon. However, if you are willing to let your physics go a little wild with movement then the weapon can work just fine. Think Soul Eater (anime), it works fine there because the physics of the world are far more loose. FFXIV may have high jumping dragoons and magic casters but over all most of the animations seem to behave close enough to real world physics, at least enough to make using a scythe seem silly.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

OP do has a point. Scythe in XI has weapon skill grade of A+ for DK.

On the contrary, the only job with weapon skill grade A+ for great sword are Rune Fencer, which is released on the latest expansion Adoulin, Such a shame GS became primary choice for DK, which might eliminate any possibility for having Rune Fencer job in XIV.

http://i.imgur.com/2OgFQij.jpg

And btw, Rune Fencer are a tank job in XI, while DK kinda more into DD-related. But I guess different game means different style.

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FFXI Bahamut server? That name looks familiar... haha.

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Originally Posted by AdlaiT

FFXI Bahamut server? That name looks familiar... haha.

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yup. I'm guessing you're from there too. ^^

Love Great Sword, not a fan of scythe. Very excited for Dark Knight as I always play tank in MMOs.

I hope having 1-hand sword and 2-hand sword doesn't affect the quality of the weapon's looks.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

On the contrary, the only job with weapon skill grade A+ for great sword are Rune Fencer, which is released on the latest expansion Adoulin, Such a shame GS became primary choice for DK, which might eliminate any possibility for having Rune Fencer job in XIV.

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Ok, one note on this. The Rune Fencer was based on the Mystic Knight job. It was a user of swords. It was mainly given GS in FFXI for one single reason: GS was the ONLY weapon type in game that didn't have a specific job that specialized in it. It could be used 3 jobs had weapons they had a higher mastery in. I would also say, regardless of what they may have intended for RUN, it sure wasn't a tank. Unless things have changed LOT since I quit. This is a job thrown in there just to fill a gap. And it did so poorly. Furthermore, what they did in XI, has no bearing whatsoever on XIV. I see really no reason to declare this a more suitable GS user than DRK. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Baithin

If Rune Fencer or something similar is ever introduced in XIV, I think I'd prefer them having rapiers... You know, for fencing.

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I actually agree with you. Would be kewl if XIV version of rune fencer makes them into dps class since the use of rapier, and it would be deadly with their ability to infuse runes for oomph piercing damage. :D

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Ok, one note on this. The Rune Fencer was based on the Mystic Knight job. It was a user of swords. It was mainly given GS in FFXI for one single reason: GS was the ONLY weapon type in game that didn't have a specific job that specialized in it. It could be used 3 jobs had weapons they had a higher mastery in. I would also say, regardless of what they may have intended for RUN, it sure wasn't a tank. Unless things have changed LOT since I quit. This is a job thrown in there just to fill a gap. And it did so poorly. Furthermore, what they did in XI, has no bearing whatsoever on XIV. I see really no reason to declare this a more suitable GS user than DRK. Just saying.

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Btw, forgot to mention that XI's RUN also has the only highest parry skill rate.

But I guess I agree on the rest of what you said, although RUN are by no means weak or poor as you said. Their defensive rune abilities are what makes it better on tanking, similar like that XI WAR skill where you can parry and deflect damage. The aggro system however are weaker than the old tank job, but the recent patches already added some enmity boost on RUN skills, though I haven't tested this yet.

Parry doesn't amount for much on anything that matters, including pretty much all the SoA bosses. And I dunno. I seem to remember an Aegis pld still being far superior at magic damage mitigation and tanking in general

Theres always way too much comparison to and expectations of how jobs are XI...

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Originally Posted by Nheir

Sycthes

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http://www.grit.com/~/media/Images/G...cythe-cut1.jpg

scythes indeed.


No.


there is only ONE game where DRK aren't using swords. Don't let them become peasants

Swords are cooler than scythes, and they are also cooler than axes. I love swords, the most badass melee weapons.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Unless we fight wheat-elementals in the future, Scythe is not a suitable weapon for combat.

As for the 22 jobs in FFXI, it's indeed pretty impressive...except the balance was absolutely destroyed early on, and each patch's purpose was to ruin previously overpowered jobs while boosting useless ones.

Especially when Katanas are far more different from swords than books are from...well, other books ;)

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Bah, sez I. Katana are just curvy razors with pretty sheaths. Their reputation is overblown. A dull bastard sword could equal their cutting power.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Bah,sez I. Katana are just curvy razors with pretty sheaths. Their reputation is overblown. A dull bastard sword could equal their cutting power.

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Looks like you don't know anything about metallurgy. Please do some research.

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Originally Posted by Hrist_Althea

Looks like you don't know anything about metallurgy. Please do some research.

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Why would I do that, when I could just watch youtube?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKvRHaJ2w6w

Starting at 0:35 "I think the Katana is a beautiful weapon, a fine weapon. But it's been exaggerated." Then to prove his point, at 0:55 he performs tameshigiri with a dull bastard sword.

I like DRK being greatswords and dark magic. I would've been unimpressed had SE made DRK a spin on PLD, which is what most people wanted. I'm happy with learning a new playstyle and I like tank jobs/classes. TBH I hope Samurai too is a tank job. This game needs more of those.

For what we've "heard" so far that this will be the first tank class based on premises of magic and TP vs just TP. My problem with this is how will this job fair with tanking things like King Moogle Mog who obliterates MP?

I understand there are not many enemies that do this at the current moment but this will potentially make DRK, not preferred on things of this nature, unless it has some type of immunity from drains, since it has a history of doing just that.

Katanas, Broadswords, whatever arguing about what's better is tiring. Swords and sword fighting, of all types, have been greatly exaggerated in fiction.
Lets just pretend they're all awesome, but different, and get along about it in Final Fantasy? And also agree that Scythes are dumb?

I think a bigass 2H sword lends itself pretty well to tanking. You might envision using using it less in the swishy-dicy kind of way and more in a bludgeoning, even shield-like way.
If you've played Transistor, replicating that feeling that the Transistor is heavy and hard to swing might be kind of neat.

I'm just gonna say: I can't WAYT til the expansion.

Right now I'm having pre-withdrawls at the thought of not being able to play when I get home from work, but I will be a responsible adult and go to work tomorrow, instead of calling in and playing like I want to and save that energy for my four day weekend this week :D

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

Katanas, Broadswords, whatever arguing about what's better is tiring. Swords and sword fighting, of all types, have been greatly exaggerated in fiction.
Lets just pretend they're all awesome, but different, and get along about it in Final Fantasy? And also agree that Scythes are dumb?

I think a bigass 2H sword lends itself pretty well to tanking. You might envision using using it less in the swishy-dicy kind of way and more in a bludgeoning, even shield-like way.
If you've played Transistor, replicating that feeling that the Transistor is heavy and hard to swing might be kind of neat.

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Yeah, scythes are a letdown. I remember completing the story chain for DRK back in 2004. I think it was killing a hundred enemies with a rusty broadsword? It was cool, but then you went to auction and bought your first scythe and it's like, "Yeaeeeah, no."

Also they MAY be saving the Scythes for future exclusive to FF14 Job class like a Death Knight as that is more thematic and fitting for the name/class. Though I understand this used to be an NPC class in FFT days, it's a possiblity.

I'm glad DRK got Greatsword btw

I know this is hard to imagine OP and other people but WHAT IF there were two jobs that could use greatswords.... and on the sword, you know where it shows what class/job can use it? what if for some greatswords it had DRK and for other great swords it didnt have DRK but some other JOB!!!????????? was ur mind blown?

Keep in mind that the expansion is still sometime ago...things may change.
I personally just think the artwork is super badass and will definitely be jumping on the hype train for that unlike Ninjas today.

http://i.imgur.com/XNiCN2S.gif
Katana vs Long Sword

EDIT:
The real weapon Dark Knights need :P

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs4/i/200...Chucks_6_0.jpg

Scythes are for BTN

noob class

Blackmages used Scythes in FF11 also, they had blackmage powers and PLD's had the same WHM powers also. I hope DRK has no FF11 powers from what I see so far Yoshi was wrong with players putting two and two together. Using the abilities without having to sub roles. I never once seen a PLD use cure for hate in FF14 or any WHM powers. I do like having 1 to 50 on the roles again.

FF11 let you turn jobs into different things that you like. Was skilled based and if you sucked you sucked and players instantly saw it. If you were good, you were good that is the difference. This game is like DC Universe Online where its gear based and not skill based. So people get away with playing awful and can blame others because of not having it skill based. Players get away with not using all abilities and cross abilities melee being the main ones that do this. However, they expect mages to have everything together.