Titan Tanking Nerfed Again!? ... WHY!? There is NO reason for this!

I know this is a "tank" thread and Titan might be a sore subject but I've got to ask.

I main as a SMN (my secondary class is WAR).

I've used Titan as a viable tank/off tank on a great number of circumstances.

Now in the past few days they've Nerfed Titan's agro to a point of pure stupidity!

Titan can no longer even hold agro against my dots on fates or alexandrite maps and I'm freaking VIT spec!

Titan lost agro to my dots, which right after I lost agro to a dragoon!

If I were INT spec Titan would be so useless I might as well tank with Garuda!

There is NO justifiable reason for this kind of nerf!
Tanks are NOT being put out of a job by Titan!
Tanks are the #1 reason for HORRIBLE Que times, sometimes even as a healer!
Tanks are NOT in danger of not being needed, we NEED more of them.
Tanks are coveted and hard to find.
Ruining Titan is not going to make more people play a tank!

I didn't see any patch for the last few days. can you provider the link to the patch note?
I wanna see what else they have change. ;D

It was a ninja (background) nerf.
Like the one with Ramuh to stop them from tanking.
SE never officially posted anything about it.

I however play a SMN every single day, the difference is huge and VERY noticeable.

Actually, you are wrong. The fix to Ramuh and Titan was specifically in a patch or hotfix.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Actually, you are wrong. The fix to Ramuh and Titan was specifically in a patch or hotfix.

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I looked patch day and saw nothing about it.
I did however find the forum post linked on redit.

As for the issue now, anyone that plays a SMN can go test it and will clearly notice.
It's not a "Hmm, I wonder if it's really different" change.

In 9 months I've never pulled agro off Titan with dots.
I'm VIT spec, I never pull agro off anything except when I'm going all out and even that's rare.

I've tanked a LOT of fates with Titan as well as instances.

I've had late start brd, whm and drg so far pull agro off Titan on fates (in 9 months this has never happened before).

I have pulled agro off him on maps, hunts and fates even when I eased up after going yellow on agro.

There is NO way what so ever Titan's agro has not been nerfed.

This is a 100% fact.

U mm if you where int speced titan would do more damage and hold hate better. Being VIT spec just gives him more hp, and his defence is way higher then garudas. Not sure why you would VIT spec anyways. I haven't had any issues doing maps the last day, obey, rousee, landslide, swith target, spur, mountain buster, enkindle, while apply and baiting my dots, then shadowflair, then fester and titans still holding hate.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...16-2014)/page3

July 15, 2014

"The following issues have been addressed:
•An issue in “The Striking Tree (Hard)” and “The Striking Tree (Extreme)”, wherein the damage taken by pets was abnormally low."

Titan holds hate against me just fine*, I don't know what you're doing wrong.

*Going all out on dummy at my house, Raging Strike'd opener for me, no Rouse/Spur for Titan.

To put it in perspective:

ACN classes produce lower threat than other classes.
Not only are they slow start DPS (takes time to put on low damage dots before using ruin, fester, etc.)
But our damage is split with a pet that has it's own entity table.

Even SCH rarely pulls agro.
That's why they don't need agro reduction skill like SoS for WHM because Fairy heals are separate agro tables.

When you take slow DPS + split agro table it's enough ACN classes should never pull agro.
It's why we can still dot stuff that's been "flashed" and not mess up the tank.

On top of this I'm VIT spec.

Though I've occasionally pulled agro from new or inexperienced tanks.
I've never pulled agro off Titan.

Yesterday I did so without even using fester.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Titan holds hate against me just fine*, I don't know what you're doing wrong.

*Going all out on dummy at my house, Raging Strike'd opener for me, no Rouse/Spur for Titan.

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Try tanking something real like a fate that other people fight too (Coerthas is good).
Not only have I had this experience, I had a R/L friend I play with who doesn't even play his SMN (He mains BLM) test it.
He pulled agro or had another dps pull agro off Titan on 3 different fates in Coerthas.

I've played ACN since I started this game.

Anyone that knows me or plays this game with me knows I'm very good with my SMN and very good at using Titan to tank.

I'll fraps my next map and post the link.

If the concern is only "I pull hate from Titan", I don't see why it makes any difference whether I do it on a dummy or something "real". The result will be the same.

Alternately, maybe it's only FATE enmity generation that Titan is reduced for. Which doesn't really affect anything.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

If the concern is only "I pull hate from Titan", I don't see why it makes any difference whether I do it on a dummy or something "real". The result will be the same.

Alternately, maybe it's only FATE enmity generation that Titan is reduced for. Which doesn't really affect anything.

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It is not just me, I've had other dps classes that came to the fight after me pull agro off Titan (something that never happened before).

I've had an INT spec SMN try with the same results. I have a ton of books and will test more myself however I've been VIT build for a LONG time and never had this problem.

It's not just fates, I've had the same results with hunt mobs and maps as well. The only thing I have not tested yet is in dungeons... or I guess I didn't test a dummy.

Historically I've never had to use Ekindle to keep agro with Titan. I normally use that only when he's tanking multiple mobs.

Just ran a few dummy tests, as well. Sic and Obey, no Rouse, Spur, or Enkindle.

I don't notice any problem with Titan-Egi's ability to hold hate.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Just ran a few dummy tests, as well. Sic and Obey, no Rouse, Spur, or Enkindle.

I don't notice any problem with Titan-Egi's ability to hold hate.

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Okay my titan can hold agro on a dummy too... and?

If you don't regularly play a SMN not only would you not notice a difference (because you don't have anything to compare to) but your rotations probably aren't... well... (2 + 2 =?)

If titan holds hate against monsters on a daily basis for 9 months and suddenly can't anymore against not just me, but other dps as well and I've had other SMN confirm the issue, that's what one would call a change in the game.

If a person that don't even play SMN regularly suddenly can't take hate off Titan against a training dummy (they're not out fighting things like fates, maps & hunts with Titan daily) ... well that's what I call something else and not at all shocking.

Maybe you should try proving you're right instead of disproving others disproving you? Can't speak for everyone but I know how to play SMN and so far you've given nothing substantial. Just "doesn't feel right man".

I just did a lot of alex maps with Titan-Egi. He held hate just fine with my dots and festers (both even raging strikes). And I'm INT based. So I dunno what your issue is.

I'm not sure what you are doing wrong? Titan holds hate just fine when i duo pieste maps whm + smner(we even drag the adds to him so he grabs hate on them (chimera/turtle/ect) or alex maps smner + blm(both kindsof maps were done today)... i havent tanked dungeons with him this "week" but last week he did just fine tanking the tonberry dungeon. Also im not sure why the vit build..but you're losing alot of dps by gimping urself 30 int.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Maybe you should try proving you're right instead of disproving others disproving you? Can't speak for everyone but I know how to play SMN and so far you've given nothing substantial. Just "doesn't feel right man".

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Haven't run maps today yet, not a lot of in game time to farm.

I'm getting ready to hop on now so I'll record some video and post it as soon as I can.

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Originally Posted by Aelinau

Also im not sure why the vit build..but you're losing alot of dps by gimping urself 30 int.

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Savage Coil progression (extremely doubtful in this case) or 30VIT build for SCH in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Malric

Okay my titan can hold agro on a dummy too... and?

If you don't regularly play a SMN not only would you not notice a difference (because you don't have anything to compare to) but your rotations probably aren't... well... (2 + 2 =?)

If titan holds hate against monsters on a daily basis for 9 months and suddenly can't anymore against not just me, but other dps as well and I've had other SMN confirm the issue, that's what one would call a change in the game.

If a person that don't even play SMN regularly suddenly can't take hate off Titan against a training dummy (they're not out fighting things like fates, maps & hunts with Titan daily) ... well that's what I call something else and not at all shocking.

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Okay well if he's for some reason not qualified, I regularly play SMN, I've done all non-Savage content in the game as SMN, and I play it reasonably well.

To test I went to a real FATE, in this case, The Red Baron FATE in Northern Thanalan. I did a regular opener of RS > Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio (move to enemy, start auto-attacking) > Swiftcast + Fester > Shadowflare > R2 > R2 > R2 > Fester into stuff. While normally you would Rouse, Spur, and Enkindle during this, for the sake of testing, I did not. Titan held aggro from the first time he attacked the boss to the end of my test, roughly 40s after the test started when I couldn't catch Titan even if I wanted to. Any more optimal of an opener, with Potent Poison Potions, INT potions, or some lucky Fester crits (M2 isn't an option due to no Contagion), would easily be covered by either Rouse or Spur. I even went until the next Fester, which crit, and Titan still held aggro.

Results: Titan's aggro is more than enough to hold from SMN in a real fight. Also, spec to INT already, will ya? Your VIT's not helping any group you roll with in all likelihood.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Savage Coil progression (extremely doubtful in this case) or 30VIT build for SCH in PvP.

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Suppose so, i still think the hit to int on smner would hurt dps too much, but to each thier own :p

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Originally Posted by Aelinau

I'm not sure what you are doing wrong? Titan holds hate just fine when i duo pieste maps whm + smner(we even drag the adds to him so he grabs hate on them (chimera/turtle/ect) or alex maps smner + blm(both kindsof maps were done today)... i havent tanked dungeons with him this "week" but last week he did just fine tanking the tonberry dungeon. Also im not sure why the vit build..but you're losing alot of dps by gimping urself 30 int.

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Because I like it?

I also play SCH and VIT is the only stat I've found to be really useful to both sides

I tank a LOT of dungeons with Titan
Best Copper HM run I've ever had was my SMN, a new SMN and a SCH after the tank bailed at like 2am a few days ago

As I often play both in the same day (dungeon que as SCH and solo as SMN) so 10k seals every time I switch isn't very worth it.

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Originally Posted by Aelinau

Suppose so, i still think the hit to int on smner would hurt dps too much, but to each thier own :p

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It only hurts when you're trying to please a parser, in real play it's not that bad at all.
No one I play with uses them so it's never actually been an issue.
Never had anyone complain about my dps so...

The survivability is well worth it. I've survived a LOT of things that 1 hit other squishy.

(Yes for the record SCH in PvP is one contributing factor, I played SCH before SMN)

If SE meant for every character to only put max (insert primary stat here) there wouldn't really be a reason to have stat distribution.

Oh and 6.7k HP w/ dungeon buff (will probably break 7k soon) on a caster and 11.5k HP on Titan is enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Malric

Okay my titan can hold agro on a dummy too... and?

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If you can't ascertain why a dummy test is relevant to this discussion, then I seriously doubt I'm the one with the problem here.

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Originally Posted by Malric

snip.

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Originally Posted by Malric

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i was not attacking.. i just didnt understand ur logic. If its for PVP i guess i can understand. PvE wise you are gimping yourself eitherway...i dont use parser nor do i agree with the drama that comes with them, i however know the importance of main stat that CAN help both sch and smner in a PvE setting rather then ohh my hp is high. In either case as i said each their own. Back to topic and onto what others were saying a dummy has "threat" like any other mob.. test are = to any lvl 50 regular mob.(thats to the lvl 50 dummies ofc)

Titan's aggro production is based off you, just like Vit, so the more you gimp yourself the more you gimp titan.

Yes Titan cant build stupid aggro like War on the set off, but if you give titan egi a sec to generate some aggro with buffs + enkindle you shouldnt have a problem

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Originally Posted by Malric

Because I like it?

I also play SCH and VIT is the only stat I've found to be really useful to both sides

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In that case 15/15 MND/INT is vastly superior.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

In that case 15/15 MND/INT is vastly superior.

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Not in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Not in PvP.

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Subjective.

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Originally Posted by Deelo

Subjective.

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Nothing beats 30VIT for SCH in PvP. Period.

15\15 imo is unnecessary go full in int or vit , you dont gimp sch as much as you do smn

I don't play summoner, but this topic is -this- close to giving me terminal diseases I just feel obliged to reply.

30 vit over 30 int, 30 mnd or 15/15 int/mnd? The only reason to spec 30 vit would be because you're PvPing. For PvE content there's no justifiable act to do so. Especially contents with enrage timers. The following content has enrage timers:
Ifrit HM, Titan EX, Ifrit EX, King Mog EX, Ramuh EX, BCoB Turn 4 and 5. SCoB Turn 3 and 4 (and supposely turn 2 as well. Never saw it, though)
Also encounters with a circumstantial enrage timer: Titan HM (amount of tumults increases), BCoB Turn 2, SCoB Turn 1

By not having 30 points spend in Int as summoner, you're practically missing out on 4 weapon damage*. For encounters where your group can barely meet the DPS checks, others are carrying a portion of your share. Be it with or without parser. Having a parser running doesn't increase or decrease your DPS at all. The amount of damage you put out is a fact and a software simply allows you to read out numbers that make sense. Not only do you gimp your own damage by losing out on 30 int, you also gimp your egi's. As stated in a previous post: Egi strengths are determined by the stats of the summoner. But being a main summoner, surely you knew of this.

* Not an exact number.

As SMN I can confirm what Lyrica said, you're already forced to sacrifice few gear pieces cause you need accuracy for T8/T9 (food wont help you, because pet needs your own accuracy and food doesn't count), there's no way, you need full INT points like bread and water.