I haven't posted much on the forums - though I am a regular lurker - so I apologise in advance if I can't work out how to use 'edit post' to get around the word limit. Hopefully this won't be too long!
I've always been interested in lore, but I'm new to trying to construct coherent theories/explanations for myself. I have some questions about Hydaelyn, her nature, and her role in the first story arc; I'd be grateful for any feedback from all you experts.
Hydaelen is the name given to the entire world of which Eorzea is part. It’s also the name of the Mother Crystal, sometimes referred to as Mother Hydaelen, inviting comparisons with the concept of Mother Earth. Hydaelen describes herself as ‘all made one’. What does this ‘all’ consist of? Everything in the world? Does it include the primals? Does it include the Garleans? Does it include the Ascians? Does it include the growing Darkness that Hydaelyn speaks of when we meet her during one of the early storyline cutscenes?
I’m tempted to infer that the Darkness is separate, not part of this ‘all’. If so, where did it come from? Do we have a creation myth in which everything is perfection and then corruption creeps in from somewhere?
Hydaelyn – and everyone else – identifies herself with the Light. The Darkness is in opposition to her. Each seeks to destroy the other. Lahabrea says that the world is becoming unbalanced, and he blames Hydaelyn for this.“The growing imbalance afflicting the planet must be redressed. If it is permitted to worsen, the very laws of existence – both aetheric and physical – will be warped beyond all recognition. Know you the root of this corruption? Hydaelyn!” What does he think is happening that is causing this imbalance? What is Hydaelyn doing? Does Lahabrea genuinely believe what he’s saying, or is it just Ascian manipulation and propaganda? His stated intention is Hydaelyn’s ‘excision’ which doesn’t sound as though he’s seeking a world where Light and Dark are ‘balanced’.
In the first story arc, Hydaelyn seems to intervene – specifically during the final three fights in the Praetorium – because Ultima Weapon and the spell, Ultima, belong to the Dark One. She isn’t concerned about the primals or the Garleans; she just want to stop what she calls ‘this vile magick’ being unleashed. Does this sound like a valid interpretation of her motives?
Questiona about Mother Hydaelyn
Printable View
-
10-23-2014, 11:54 PMElladieQuestiona about Mother Hydaelyn
-
10-24-2014, 12:09 AMtreuhavikI always believed this "all" was the crystals of light. "I am Hydaelan, all made one." meaning that if you were to collect the crystals and reassemble them, she would be the result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
Both sides crave dominance, light and dark. We, the players, are creating imbalance by aiding the light. This is where the ascians come in, claiming there intention is to restore the balance. However, left unchecked, the ascians would tip the scales in the direction of darkness. So, we're now involved in the seemingly eternal tug-o-war between light and dark, good and evil.
This is how I've reasoned it all anyway. -
10-24-2014, 12:37 AMAnonymooseType everything you'd like to say, then CTRL+A to highlight it all, CTRL+X to cut, and just type "EDIT INCOMING" and post that. Then, edit your post and CTRL+V everything you wrote, and hit the SAVE button. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
To expla-... The answer to your qu... <scratches chin> I really have no idea. (TnT)Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
Uncovering the truth about The Crystal(s) is always a big part of a "classic" Final Fantasy game. As far as I know, Hydaelyn best fits with FFIX's crystal - the source and destination of all life, located at the center of a planet. Where all ends is anybody's guess, but it probably doesn't include anything of the Void, and that's where the Ascians seem to reside. A little support for this comes from the guildhest where the essences of fallen Voidsent are rejected by Hydaelyn's lifestream (presumably the flow of aether, the "light of creation," that flows into and out of Hyadealyn). It may very well include the primals, as they are of aetherial creation, but their summoned forms in our realm hurt her. They might be seen as part of her all, but a corrupted part, perhaps.
The growing Darkness, I'd imagine, has origins in the Void, outside of her creation, if I had to guess. If fits not only with IX, but XI, where the crystal was shattered into 5 pieces to protect it from the Emptiness. -
10-24-2014, 01:07 AMElladie
Thanks for your prompt replies, guys! You've given me plenty to think about and more stuff to chase up. Don't know very much about the Void and how it relates to Hydaelyn's creation, so I guess that's my first port of call.
Hope I'm not going to drive you all toooo crazy with my posts. I have so many questions, my head hurts ... -
10-25-2014, 05:46 AMVargasVermillionWe don't actually know if dark is 'evil' exactly, it could be similar to the world of darkness in FF3 for all we know. two sides of the same coin.Quote:
Originally Posted by treuhavik
-
10-26-2014, 09:54 PMTorquilIf you haven't reached Ramuh in the main story yet, he may give you a few scant nuggets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
-
10-27-2014, 08:29 AMElladieYeah, I did notice that Ramuh mentions a time before the Light and the Dark existed, but I haven't gotten round to chasing that up yet. I presume that's the kind of thing you're referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Torquil
-
10-27-2014, 11:01 AMAlberelRamuh implies that there was originally a balance of some kind at which point the concepts of light and dark did not exist. Then something happened which caused light and dark to separate. Ramuh considers the possibility that the creation of the mortal races was what caused the imbalance but he doesn't actually seem to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
-
10-27-2014, 11:26 PMElladieSo maybe Hydaelyn and Zodiark are 'primals'? In the sense that Ferne referred to the primals and elder primals as brought into being by belief and worship in them? Maybe we - the mortal races - created Light and Dark (and thus the struggle between them and the lack of balance) by our need for these two deities that reflect our own moral duality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
-
10-27-2014, 11:57 PMAlenoreWell, we live on Hydaelyn. If we "created" Zodiark and Hydaelyn, where were we before that? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
-
10-28-2014, 12:35 AMAlberelWhilst our world is called Hydaelyn it is separate from the mothercrystal herself of the same name. Hydaelyn the mothercrystal exists in the aetherial realm and all aether in the world of Hydaelyn comes from her and returns to her via the lifestream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenore
Hydaelyn is both the world and the creator, though they are actually separate entities sharing the same name.
I wouldn't think we created them via some summoning equivalent though. Ramuh's suggestion, when paired with Lahabrea's (potentially false) explanations, would mean that Hydaelyn created the mortal races and broke the balance in doing so. That may not be the case, and even if it were we have no idea what that actually means for the wider scope of the story. If Hydaelyn did indeed break the balance as Lahabrea suggests then I would assume she had a reason for doing so as she has put her own existence in danger as a result. -
10-28-2014, 01:09 AMAlenoreI'd really love a quote saying Hydaelyn is in the aetherial realm. Right now it's a but fuzzy, but from what we know, the world is Hydaelyn as in "Hydaelyn created the world" (which also fits with other FFs lore).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
-
10-28-2014, 02:38 AMAlberelThe 2.3 story has a section where Minfillia gives us exposition on the concept of aether and how it works. One of the points was that when a being dies its aether returns to the aetherial realm. We know that Hydaelyn is the source of aether and that she regulates the lifestream (and the return of corrupted aether to her is what harms her) so from there it is a fair assumption that she is in the aetherial realm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenore
Hydaelyn the world and Hydaelyn the mothercrystal are not the same thing. If they were the same then aether wouldn't return to another dimension, it would return to the planet itself, which it doesn't in XIV's universe. -
10-28-2014, 09:19 AMBaithinDoesn't it, though? I always thought that aether returned to both the aetherial realm and the planet - maybe they're a lot more closely related than we think. The Lifestream is mentioned multiple times throughout different FATEs and quests, specifically as the place where spirits go after they die. Though I may be looking at it in terms of VII's universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
Unless I'm confusing myself and the aetherial realm and the Lifestream are the same thing. Oooor the aetherial realm is where the aether goes, but a person's "soul" (their memories, personalities, anything that isn't part of their physical body or the aether) goes to the Lifestream (heaven?).
How much do we know about XIV's Lifestream, anyway? -
11-03-2014, 09:24 AMKyle2006
Hey, though it is mere speculation on my part from bits and pieces I'v picked up through the story and from the lore thread and may be way off, here one of my theories:
We know Primals are beings summoned by aether and prayers, I believe since the summoning of Great King Moogle Mog that primals are created through strong enough prayer and an abundance of aether. This theory would put into question how each summoning summons the same primal and why new primals aren't made often. However I believ this is due to belief, it is easier to pray to something you believe exists, for examples primales you have heard that have been summoned in the past or a legendery figure like King Moogle Mog (possible Odin), and once created they are part of the lifestream
We know aeather has been around since the start of the world since it's the source of life (I believe, not sure if I'm mixing up the lifestream explanation Minfilla gave). I believe the Hydaelyn and Zodiark are the first to forms the aether was given through strong belief of mortals light and dark, life and death. I believe that the primels are smaller fragments of the Hydaelyns aether given form through belief (hence why Ramuh remebers a time before light and dark before man when the aether was whole). I believe that Hydaelyn is weakened because something that is broken is difficult to put together again. I believe that the balance the Aciens seek is to return everything back to aether ending all mortal life.
Well that's my theory it's probably full of holes but maybe but maybe it'll help give a different perceptive. -
11-03-2014, 11:06 AMSapphic
Taking final fantasy 3 as a basis, balance needs to be maintained between light and dark. when one becomes too powerful warriors are cerated to being back balance. Or to end up pushing the other back and tip the scales the other way. In FF3 dark was dominant so Warriors of light appeared, yet in the story it mentions when light was dominant warriors of dark appeared.
So we are Warriors of Light, are Ascians warriors of dark?
When you are unlocking Leviabeetus (sic) you find out that through the power of the echo you can take over another body if yours dies, as shown by the Sahagin priest. Something which the Ascians do, which gives further credence to the Ascians being warriors of dark if they have been given the power of the Echo by Zodiark. As I'm assuming Warriors of dark would be given pretty much the same abilities as those of light.
Or where they warriors of light that where converted/corrupted to follow Zodiark? -
11-04-2014, 01:40 AMtreuhavikThis is exactly what I was getting at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphic
Although we may be branching a bit, here's something more to think about (let's see if I can explain it well enough):Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2006
What if these primals were nothing before they were first summoned. 100% did not exist. Now, imagine someone/something decided to pray for someone/something to come save them from somethingsomthingterrible over a bunch of "sacred crystals" they had found and gathered. Then, where there was no being before, sprung a creature from these "sacred crystals" to answer their prayers. These, people, we'll say, created this being themselves.
___________________________________________________________________
So, this primal was birthed in our realm originally, from nothing but crystallized aether, hopes and wishes. Now, you could say that this is how summoning is done every time and that they are created from scratch on each occasion. But, I think we would have seen some sort of telephone game happening. Either the same primal would never be summoned twice or the same primal would be summoned slightly different each time with a slightly different attitude and probably no memory or knowledge other than what its' creators (worshipers) gave it.
I see this possibility as unlikely, as, at least in the 'modern' primals, their consciousness seems consistent. So, for the sake of this theory, let's rule that out and continue.
___________________________________________________________________
The primal then wanders the world after it completed the assigned task until one day some guys with giant balls come to challenge it (they'd have to to fight a 'god', right?). They end up winning and the primal is now dead x_x . So, all that aether the primal (and everything else for that matter, save for voidsent) was composed of now has to go somewhere, right? Back to the planet/lifestream/hydaelyn! However, when this aether goes back, the particles/whateveritsmadeupof, retain memory and reform the being it once was, but now on the aethereal plane, similar to how we, the PC, de/materialize on either side of aetheryte. Now there's a, for all intents and purposes, living being in the aethereal realm and all it needs to come back to its' home is a door, one that's opened for it specifically by people praying reeeeeally hard, begging it to come through, and who have lots 'n' lots of aether to help it materialize on the other side, consider it a make-shift aetheryte. Easy~peasy.
Oh, yeah, and the more aether these people have, the more the primal absorbs and the more powerful it becomes. -
11-04-2014, 01:55 AMTinyRedLeaf
^ So, in other words... which came first, the believer or the primal?
If the primal didn't exist, how did the believer come to "know" about it?
But if the believer didn't believe, how would the primal exist in the first place? -
11-04-2014, 02:02 AMtreuhavik
Let's just say that the believer(s) had faith, in something. They weren't quite sure what they were doing, they just wanted someone to come help them and *POOF* out comes a baby primal. =D
Or they could have been praying to the crystal itself. Here we are, way, way back and we find these pretty crystalline rocks that have strange attributes. That's more than enough to start a religion. -
11-04-2014, 02:11 AMTinyRedLeafHee... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by treuhavik
I like the idea that "the same primal would be summoned slightly different each time", though. It's one way to rationalise the ever-stronger iterations of each primal we face.
By the same token, each primal should be terrified of being forgotten, for that would mean its death.
This concept of worship and existence has been pretty popular in modern graphic novels, like Neil Gaiman's The Sandman. -
11-04-2014, 02:15 AMtreuhavik
Well the primal wouldn't be dead by my theory, see. It would just be trapped in the aethreal realm. So, for us, the players and Eorzea, it would be awesome if they were forgotten. Then again, how long would it be until someone else prayed to a pile of shiny rocks...?
-
11-04-2014, 02:28 AMTinyRedLeafBut that's why I asked which came first, the believer or the primal. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by treuhavik
If no one believes in the primal, who would even know about it, let alone summon it?
For all intents and purposes, a forgotten primal is a non-existent primal. It's as good as dead.
This little conundrum is really a variation of the good ol' story: If there's no one around to hear the tree fall, did the tree fall?
What do we really know? What actually is "knowledge"?
Many apologies for this digression, though. To return to the original question, we really don't know much about Hydaelyn's relation to Zodiark. I'm particularly curious about how much Ramuh actually knows of the time before mortals were created. Because if there were no mortals around who believed in him, how did he exist in the first place to remember the time before history?
Patch 2.4 spoiler, about the fate of the Students of Baldesion:
We have the first mention of a phenomenon called the "Rejoining".
That sounds suspiciously like a concept that has appeared in earlier Final Fantasy games, where the antagonists yearn to return to a nihilistic "singularity", which is presumably the state of "existence" when time began.
Why anyone would want to return to such a state of nothingness is beyond my ability to understand.
-
11-04-2014, 02:43 AMtreuhavikIs this not also what the Ascians want more or less?Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
-
11-04-2014, 02:58 AMKyle2006I believe that primals are initially summoned through worship of elements and forces of nature, to primitive people forces of nature would seem god like, that is why in irl there are many religions that associate their gods with certain elements. That is why most primals are associated with elements. Non elemental primals like Odin (and possible King Moogle Mog) were summoned through peoples beliefs in their legends, (haven't played 2.4 story yet but Shiva sounds like a mix of legend and elemental worship), I believe Bahamut was created (if he is not originally some legendary dragon) through dragon worship, once again to primitive men dragons would have seemed like a powerful force of nature unto themselves. I believe Hydaelyn and Zodiark were the first "primals"/"gods" to be given form from the aether.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
As for the Rejoining, it sounds like what I believed the Ascians plans were in my theory 1 page back. -
11-04-2014, 09:18 AMTinyRedLeafI haven't played far enough into the Coils of Bahamut to know for sure. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2006
But, like others have asked, who created Hydaelyn and Zodiark?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2006
I don't think the "mothercrystals" are gods the way the mortals understand the concept. They are Creation itself.
Metaphorically, darkness exists because light casts a shadow. The MSQ alluded to this. You can't have one without the other.
Which suggests that existence is already balanced, as long as neither side attempts to outshine or overshadow each other.
Here's a thought: Unlike the primals, the Twelve do not appear to have physical forms. Worshippers believe they are a family of sorts with various relationships to each other, but we don't have that many visual representations of any of the Twelve. For example, Nophica is thought to be a matron, but we don't actually see that many statues of Nophica. (There's that Twin Adder recruitment poster portraying her as a busty young woman, though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2006
My wild guess would be that the Twelve are the first, primaeval personifications of the elements. Over time, beliefs about the elements began to multiply, just like what happens when information that gets passed down through the telephone game. Each iteration brings a slightly different version of the way each element is to be personifed, and lo, the primals were born.
In short, perhaps the Twelve and the primals are one and the same? They're all aspects of the elements, each a slightly different representation of an element, as perceived by believers of the day. -
11-08-2014, 11:49 PMKorinth
While all of these various theories are very interesting, there are a few flaws in them I feel I should point out.
1. Ramuh clearly states that he existed before man. Outright pontificates on the subject. This is easily accepted by the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, formost experts on Primals. The manifestation of both Shiva and Good King Moggle Mog are the aberrations to the known order of existing Primals. My personal theory is that summoning a Primal-like entity such as them actually does just that, Shiva was a living Elezen, and her soul would have passed into the Aetherial realm when she died. And Good King Moggle Mog, whilst unlikely to have actually transported moogles from the divine realm, also apparently existed at some point in time. Furthermore, Iceheart is referred to as 'the Vessel', and her failure is apparently something that will please Lahbraea. She is also apparently the only one the Heretics can use to summon Shiva, and she retains control over the abilities granted to her. My thoughts on that are that she is the rebirth of said woman, and 'The Echo' is a remnant of past mortal lives of significance. Mortal Primals, if you will.
2. From the ending Cinematic of the original story quests (After Defeating Van Baelsar) Zodiark is referred to being 'returned', rather than existing alongside Hydaelyn. And then the Warrior of Light has a vision of the Mothercrystal overtaken by Darkness. My theory is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are -both- the mothercrystal, but which one is it at a given time depends on the balance of Darkness and Light. -
11-10-2014, 11:23 PMtreuhaviklol Any theory you read of mine is 90% likely to be complete BS. I let my imagination get the better of me more often than not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korinth
However, we're actually never told if beastmen, dragon races included, are considered "men". What we do know is that some primals were created before man, perhaps during the time beasts became sentient, and others (Shiva) were created after.
When it comes to Hydealyn, Zodiark and the Twelve, I can't help but think of Greek Mythology...
It begins with Chaos, a yawning nothingness (FFXIV "Ascian Balance"). Out of the void emerged Gaia (the Earth [FFXIV Hydealyn]) and some other primary divine beings: Eros (Love), the Abyss (the Tartarus), and the Erebus. Without male assistance, Gaia gave birth to Uranus (the Sky [FFXIV Zodiark]) who then fertilized her. From that union were born first the Titans—six males: Coeus, Crius, Cronus, Hyperion, Iapetus, and Oceanus; and six females: Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Rhea, Theia, Themis, and Tethys (= 12). After Cronus was born, Gaia and Uranus decreed no more Titans were to be born. They were followed by the one-eyed Cyclopes and the Hecatonchires or Hundred-Handed Ones, who were both thrown into Tartarus by Uranus. This made Gaia furious (Que the power struggle between Hydealyn and Zodiark). -
11-11-2014, 12:07 AMMorningstar1337I think that the Primals are more like the Titans (including the one explicitly named titan) and the Twelve are analogues to the Olympians, a set of 12 successor gods that overthrew the titans in a battle called the Titanomachy. The only difference is that as far as I know, the Twelve never battled the Primals.Quote:
Originally Posted by treuhavik
Interestingly we never seem to have any lore that explores the individual gods, making them more like The Delightful Chidren From Down the Lane from KND, mutltiple charaters that are so flat that they might as well be one character storywise, and are treated as such most of the time. -
11-11-2014, 01:02 AMMishini_Dracoto
I am goin to rewind and step back from FFXIV as I post my response. Over the span of the enire Final Fantasy series there is an overarching story/theme linking crystals / shards / magicite / etc as the source of energy & power. Instead of worrying about deforestation or fracking, in the Final Fantasy Series, the accompanying theme is the over use of crystals / shards, overdrawing the power from the earth/planet (by extraction, similar to mining/logging). When OP asks about 'Mother Hydaelyn' I take this 100% akin to saying 'mother earth.' I believe all living things in Eorzea have some Aetheric Energies (my vision fo their aetheric goggles is akin to thermal goggles, everythin radiates SOME aetheric energy) This Aetheric Energy is literally the power of the crystals. If you were to suck all the power of the world and re-condense it back into one meta-crystal of power, the result would be Hydaelyn. Which is also why we vision her floating in space (in order to her to exist at some sort of full capacity, nothing else on the planet would exist, the entirety of the planet is actually Hydaelyn)
The people who pointed a Ramuh plot I would bellieve are correct, at least in the way that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are light and dark, and almost exist as parrallel universes. wherin the 'fathercrystal' is Zodiark, and the Ascians are the Wariors of Darkness. I will agree that this does not necessarily make them evil, but from a saving Eorzea sandpoint, their goals would be evil by our standpoint, even though in the greater scheme of things, they are actually presented in a very druidic manner / seeking to restore balance.
I don' think I have the capacity to continue answering our question at the moment, my brain keeps wandering off o a philosophical tangent about how we are ACTUALLY the warriors of darkness, or at least the warriors of evil, for our planet is filled with and ruled by evil. the citizens of Eorzea are a very selfish lot, save room for exceptions with the Scions and a few others. The fabled Warriors of light as heroes from the perspective of selfish evil people. We are saving the bad guys! Our Rebellion against he Ascians is childish.
But then, look at where he story started. Where did the Warriors of Ligh reall come from? we all arrived at some city sate via a chocobo-drawn carraige. Where were we before that? Even if you say you've been to the Cit State before, you're reated as a newcomer. a Random adventurer, appeared . . . out of the Aether?!
maybe, MAYBE, we are also Primals?! !? Our existence borne from the dreams of people wishin for a savior. because there was enough people around the whole planet, crystals from the entire planet were used to create the primal / warrior of light, and thus they were not needed to be heaped in one big fat pile.
This makes little sense however to the current plot. These anomolies of Primals can't really include Warriors of light and dark / scions or Ascians. Instead I contend that we are servents/minions of our respective crystal. Hydaelynn and Zodiark are the same and yet opposites. Where Hydaelynn is a giver of life, and a planet, Zodiark is a void, which bings only death
References for overarching theme, I'll draw upon my mos recently replayed game and poin to FFVII, Midgard / Lifa Stream. (literally, liquid life-giving, source of all power, that lows nderneath the surface of he planet giving power to all things)
FFIX, The Lifa Tree, somebody else mentioned i in here.