Eorzea views on sexuality...

First, I know the topic of sexuality can be a doom-laiden thing to bring up on a MMO, but I am hoping that, as this is a Lore-based question, things will not get heated up and things can go maturely.

Anyway, this is something I have been curious for a while now, and a question in last nights Fan Fest stream made me even more curious. Dose the game or any piece of lore give any hints or indication as to what the races of Eorzea views are regarding sexuality? Is there anything in their cultures that may, or may not, be excepting of such things? I remember a female Miqo'te declared an interest in my female character (A quest in Camp Bronze Lake, I think... could be wrong) so LGBT seems to be something that exists in this world, anyway.

As I said, I was watching the Fan Fest stream last night, and the lore translator stated how the player character, coming from outside Eorzea, has a broader view on some things (This was in regards to romantic race relations, I think...)

Not that this response is lore related, but games today include same sex relations. Other games like Skyrim you could marry same sex, The Fallout games also allowed same sex relations. It exists in this world, so why not others?

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Not that this response is lore related, but games today include same sex relations. Other games like Skyrim you could marry same sex, The Fallout games also allowed same sex relations. It exists in this world, so why not others?

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Oh, I completely agree. To be honest, it was the announcement that same-sex marriage was coming to FFXIV which made me finally give it a go! It is fantastic to see more and more games striving to add equality, in all of its forms.

It is funny you mention Skyrim, actually. I love the fact that they added same-sex marriage into the game and made no big deal about it. However, it slightly irked me how, given the vast amount of detailed lore in that game, there was no mention of any actual LGBT characters or themes. That is another reasons why I am curious as to whether there is actually anything with the races culture and lore relating to LGBT issues, or whether this is just going to be something that isn't really mentioned outside of the marriage option :)

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

It is funny you mention Skyrim, actually. I love the fact that they added same-sex marriage into the game and made no big deal about it. However, it slightly irked me how, given the vast amount of detailed lore in that game, there was no mention of any actual LGBT characters or themes. That is another reasons why I am curious as to whether there is actually anything with the races culture and lore relating to LGBT issues, or whether this is just going to be something that isn't really mentioned outside of the marriage option :)

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Didn't The Rising vendor, who was dressed like Minfillia mention that she had a wife/girlfriend?

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"You seem fascinated by my raiments. I am flattered! My betrothed made them -- as dextrous with a needle as she is with a sword, that one! A bit short-tempered, but we all have our faults, don't we?"

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Yes it's not really mentionned into the game, I don't think it's something the lore makers thought really important, as we don't really have a lot of informations about sexuality and couples at all into the game, although we can sometimes speculates on some things, the most interresting might be the Seeker of the Sun Miqo'te way of life and reproduction, they have one male per tribe that have to reproduce with females so since sexuality seems to be all about reproduction for the alpha male, maybe the other males, that can't have sex with women have homosexual relationships and same goes for the women, meaning they might have two conceptions of sex, one for reproduction and one for pleasure ( which usually happened in real world in societies where male and female where separated for a long time, male had families and wife but had pleasure sex with each others ).

You can also speculates about those Uld'ahn rich guys that might have a lot of ways to use their money for pleasure, yes you know what I mean ^^".

The Seeker female prostitutes in the Miner's guild would take customers of both genders in 1.0, and I seem to recall getting propositioned by another female npc right after getting off the boat to Limsa in 1.0 beta, but that are the only other instances I can recall in game besides the ones already mentioned.

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Originally Posted by lololink

You can also speculates about those Uld'ahn rich guys that might have a lot of ways to use their money for pleasure, yes you know what I mean ^^".

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There's this one goldsmith levequest, "It's Only Love", where the flavour text hints that Gegeruju goes both ways.

'Course, it's Gegeruju so this is no surprise. He's probably going to be one of the major sponsors of the Domans once the new race is revealed, bless his tiny black heart, just because it's a whole new race he hasn't had a chance to sleep with yet.

I'm still waiting for gender restricted gears to be fixed so I can wear my kilts.

Personally, I don't like it when fantasy mediaeval worlds have to be written to fit modern-day notions of political correctness. For example, imagine such pressure forcing a show like Game Of Thrones to drop all use of misogynist imagery and language, simply because modern-day audiences find them offensive.

And I think people often forget that games such as FFXIV are available to different people in different parts of the world, with different values and different ways of handling sensitive issues such as these. I well understand the eagerness to promote such views, and I may even support them in real life. But I'm not comfortable with them having imposed on people who don't share such views.

That said, it is an imaginary world, so its social institutions can be whatever its creators want. I'll go along either way.

Well, there are a couple instances that I've seen so far, or that I remember. In Whitebrim Front there are some men sitting on the bunked beds and the--I assume--higher ranked of the two offers to share his bed with the other. The other instance has already been mentioned: the quest in S.Than by Forgotten Springs when you need to shoo off the peeping toms. The Miqote says something to the effect of not minding if you were to watch, which I'm told is the same for male or female characters.

From what I can gather, romance and sexuality aren't really as tightly woven in Eorzea as they are in real life. For me, it seems like Eternal Binding goes beyond mere romance and extends to, like, the highest tier of friendship two individuals can possibly share.

Something tells me, especially from the Lore Panel at the Fanfest, that people take a lot more issue when being involved with other races infinitely much, much moreso than being involved with someone of the same biological sex.

There really isn't a need to run around flaunting your sexuality, hetero or not, ingame or not.

You do realize the only reason that, game-wise (NOT lore), for same-sex marriages in the game was in case one of the two people used a Fantasia potion on their character and switched their character's gender to the same as their in-game partner...right? So it would not complicate character data. I don't think it really has to do with anything equality-wise.

I don't remember where - it's an old topic - but it's basically been confirmed somewhere (by Ferne, I believe) that Eorzea just doesn't make an issue out of sexuality the way our society does. There's actually quite a bit of dialogue and little side things in the game involving same-sex implications, whether of a romantic nature or purely sexual. It's not really touched on heavily because it's just not a thing. By Eorzea standards, it'd be as odd to make a big deal out of a same-sex relationship's existence as it would for a man to run around shouting about how he likes girls, or for someone to seem stunned by that fact. You'd get a bit of funny looks for that, right?

It has absolutely nothing to do with trying to shove any views on anyone and everything to do with building a world that is societally different from our own.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

First, I know the topic of sexuality can be a doom-laiden thing to bring up on a MMO, but I am hoping that, as this is a Lore-based question, things will not get heated up and things can go maturely.

Anyway, this is something I have been curious for a while now, and a question in last nights Fan Fest stream made me even more curious. Dose the game or any piece of lore give any hints or indication as to what the races of Eorzea views are regarding sexuality? Is there anything in their cultures that may, or may not, be excepting of such things? I remember a female Miqo'te declared an interest in my female character (A quest in Camp Bronze Lake, I think... could be wrong) so LGBT seems to be something that exists in this world, anyway.

As I said, I was watching the Fan Fest stream last night, and the lore translator stated how the player character, coming from outside Eorzea, has a broader view on some things (This was in regards to romantic race relations, I think...)

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Ahhhh... OP, seems you have not yet heard about the worldwide fan-induced speculations on the forums surrounding Haurchefant and Francel. Excellent speculations to be honest; and I had to applaud.

By the way, after watching (and listening) to the English new voice-over for Haurchefant in patch 2.3, he is now arguably one of my favourite NPCs.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Personally, I don't like it when fantasy mediaeval worlds have to be written to fit modern-day notions of political correctness. For example, imagine such pressure forcing a show like Game Of Thrones to drop all use of misogynist imagery and language, simply because modern-day audiences find them offensive.

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The irony here is Game of Thrones DOES feature same sex relationships.

A lot of people argue that it's 'political correctness' but what many fail to realise is that same sex relationships have existed throughout history. They have ALWAYS existed. Just because your history textbooks don't talk about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are a LOT of things those history books leave out.

If anything any historical setting trying to pretend same sex relationships don't exist is misrepresentative by omission. The only reason companies do it is because it fits societal expectations based on ignorance and saves them any backlash from the bigots.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

A lot of people argue that it's 'political correctness' but what many fail to realise is that same sex relationships have existed throughout history. They have ALWAYS existed. Just because your history textbooks don't talk about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are a LOT of things those history books leave out.

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Same-sex relationships have always been around. Did I dispute that?

What is also true is that such relationships have been frowned upon in most societies throughout history. That's a historical fact. What I actually think about this is besides the point. Sure, there were societies that turned a blind eye to such relationships, just as there were a handful of other societies that even actively practised such relationships. But it's quite a major leap to go from there to the suggestion that just because such relationships existed, therefore societies were okay with it — if they were, we wouldn't have the culture wars that we're dealing with today!

BUT, as I've already pointed out, all this moot. This is an imaginary world, and there is no rule that all imaginary worlds must mirror our historical experience to a T. I'm willing to go either way, so long as the circumstances are backed with a good amount of lore to explain why it turned out that way in Eorzea.

And I have no wish to drag this out any further than necessary. I'm sure no one wants to argue over this in a game forum. I'm not even for or against either side of the debate, in any case.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Ahhhh... OP, seems you have not yet heard about the worldwide fan-induced speculations on the forums surrounding Haurchefant and Francel. Excellent speculations to be honest; and I had to applaud.

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That's how everyone else read it? I mean, there's no arguing that Haurchefant isn't enthusiastically bisexual but I didn't get the feeling he was helping Francel for any reason other than he was obviously being framed and Haurchefant is a man of honour and integrity as well as a gleeful pervert.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Same-sex relationships have always been around. Did I dispute that?

What is also true is that such relationships have been frowned upon in most societies throughout history. That's a historical fact. What I actually think about this is besides the point. Sure, there were societies that turned a blind eye to such relationships...

BUT, as I've already pointed out, all this moot. This is an imaginary world, and there is no rule that all imaginary worlds must mirror our historical experience to a T. I'm willing to go either way, so long as the circumstances are backed with a good amount of lore to explain why it turned out that way in Eorzea.

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#Rome #Sparta. 'nuff said.

And if it's a fantasy world making history moot, then why drag your crappy opinion to the thread? You literally said that it doesn't matter, so all your posts are literally pointless.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

What is also true is that such relationships have been frowned upon in most societies throughout history. That's a historical fact.

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And by 'most of history', you actually mean European history since about 300AD, when the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity reigned.

The taboo against homosexuality is mainly rooted in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), which do not exist in Eorzea, or indeed, in most fictional Fantasy worlds; remove this set of religions, and you remove its influence on culture and societal norms. This isn't to say that your fantasy word can't have taboos regarding sexuality if you want it to, but it also means that there is absolutely no reason why it must. You're building a world from scratch; just because the level of technology is approximately the same as Medieval Earth doesn't, and shouldn't, mean that your cultures are as well.

Now more on topic, views on sexuality could differ a good deal between the various Eorzean cultures.

As previously mentioned, considering the structure of Seeker society, same-gender pairings are pretty likely, for both sexual and child-rearing purposes - one male would have a pretty hard time actively helping to raise the children of twenty to fifty females, so the females might pair off to help each other. in the U tribe's village, we see at least one pair of females apparently cohabiting in one of the houses, talking about one's next scheduled quality time with the Nuhn.

Ishgardians, on the other hand, could very reasonably have taboos against homosexual relations built into their culture. Between their harsh environment and being constantly at war, their people are constantly dying; anything that could get in the way of producing children would pose a serious threat to their ability to keep the population up...and that's not even taking into account the potential for plague, famine or other acts of the gods to suddenly wipe out a chunk of the population.

But we DO have in-game evidence of same-sex hanky-panky going in in the ranks...Note that most of our current Ishgardian NPCs are involved with the war effort, however; whether or not their culture gives a whit about sexuality, it wouldn't be unreasonable if such relations were encouraged, or at least tacitly permitted, within the military. we see soldiers of both genders, and people WILL go on having sex no matter how you try to stop them...but imagine the trouble if half your military force were constantly getting pregnant! Far simpler to turn a blind eye to a minor act of heresy, than risk being undermanned at a critical moment.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Ahhhh... OP, seems you have not yet heard about the worldwide fan-induced speculations on the forums surrounding Haurchefant and Francel. Excellent speculations to be honest; and I had to applaud.

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It could be me, but the Carpenter quest line gives off some very strong vibes as well.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

It could be me, but the Carpenter quest line gives off some very strong vibes as well.

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I had the same thoughts when I was doing it too. I even questioned my FC if Beatin is in love with Gairhard, but most of them just click through everything without reading :(

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Originally Posted by Erendis

I had the same thoughts when I was doing it too. I even questioned my FC if Beatin is in love with Gairhard, but most of them just click through everything without reading :(

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One of the most recent moogle courier quests definitely framed Beatin's relationship with Gairhard as an ex he still holds feelings for but the harvest dance quest made it seem like he may have an interest in the dance instructor too. Either the writers aren't yet decided where they're going with this or Beatin just has a really messy emotional life.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

One of the most recent moogle courier quests definitely framed Beatin's relationship with Gairhard as an ex he still holds feelings for but the harvest dance quest made it seem like he may have an interest in the dance instructor too. Either the writers aren't yet decided where they're going with this or Beatin just has a really messy emotional life.

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This is what I noted as well.

There is also another thing, I don't know if it's in the English translation too but in french, all the quests have play on words with the wood and in one of the quest Beatin says that seeing us learning to be a carpenter remembered him that he used to make pipes ( which in french means to do a blow-job ), that may not have been a joke after all !

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Originally Posted by lololink

There is also another thing, I don't know if it's in the English translation too but in french, all the quests have play on words with the wood and in one of the quest Beatin says that seeing us learning to be a carpenter remembered him that he used to make pipes ( which in french means to do a blow-job ), that may not have been a joke after all !

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Nope, though I'm glad to hear that the French translation has its own shenanigans going on.

The English translation has its own completely seperate wood-based innuendo . . . though to be fair it's really hard to have a completely innocent discussion about wood-working in English and not have it sound vaguely filthy, for example, "the spring of the pole only being sufficient to return the treadle to the raised position ready for the next down stroke".

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Originally Posted by FJerome

it's really hard to have a completely innocent discussion about wood-working in English

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Yeah, but if you're going to at least try, you don't name the guy working the wood Beatin.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

though to be fair it's really hard

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...if you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Yeah, but if you're going to at least try, you don't name the guy working the wood Beatin.

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To be fair the character names are the same across all the languages but the Master Beatin word-play only works in English. (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I am all for sexy, sexy education.)

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Originally Posted by Bixby

...if you know what I mean.

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Touché.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

To be fair the character names are the same across all the languages but the Master Beatin word-play only works in English. (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I am all for sexy, sexy education.)

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Now i'm curious about what is that play on word ^^.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Beatin word-play only works in English

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I was half-joking, but I know more than a few people who've noticed the coincidence, intentional or not. Even just plain ol' beatin' wood makes the joke work, for that matter. As far as I know, yes, it mainly works in English, so either it's a really funny coincidence, or someone in an [en] cubicle is snickering at us right now.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Now i'm curious about what is that play on word ^^.

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In English, the word "beating" can be slang for masturbation, in the right context. Beatin' it, beatin' off, beatin' wood...