Connection Between The Twelve and the Allagan

Hey all,

I posed this question in the Las Vegas Lore Panel thread but I'm also curious what thoughts you may have on this. Please, feel free to shatter my confidence in this theory.

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In the "End of an Era" trailer we see Bahamut break free of Dalamund, which we now know was constructed by the Allagan. Shortly after, the Scions attempt to recapture Bahamut in another spherical prison.

We're led to believe that the power used to materialize this contraption was of The Twelve, summoned by the Scions. Is this accurate?

If so, had they succeeded in completing the cast, would the prison have been the same as the former, a "Dalamund II" if you will?

Assuming that outcome, is it not safe to assume also that there is a connection between The Twelve and the Allagan?

What can you reveal about this event?

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If you'd like an official response on this too, go "like" my post HERE.


What I'm alluding to here is that The Twelve and the Allagan may be one in the same (or at least 12 of them).

I know there are a lot of contradicting theories out there, but is it really all that crazy of me to think that the entire Allagan race, whom disappeared from from the face of the world, was able to become advanced to the point of ascension?

Your theory sounds like a theory of the Dwarves disappearance in The Elder Scrolls universe...

Though wasn't something about what happened explained during the CT2 storyline?

Here's what we know of the Allagan:

During the height of Allagan achievement they created Dalamund.

The power obtained from Bahamut within was too much for the Crystal Tower to contain and caused an earthquake, sinking the tower and all those within.

Amon was alive at this time. He cloned a bunch of dead Allagan, including Archeron, Xande, Scylla, Glasya Labolas, and presumably Doga and Unei, to try and restore their former glory etc. etc.


Are we to assume that EVERYONE other than Amon died during the earthquake? Also, who actually built Dalamund and the spaceships inside? Were there more spaceships that evacuated people during the event? I'm sure there was enough gap in time between the creation of Dalamund and the earthquake for them to escape, with or without their spaceships.


All that aside though, what explanation is there for The Twelve's power creating another Dalamund? It's a stretch, I know. We're missing so many pieces. I just don't see any other logical explanation. Either The Twelve we're/are still Allagan or The Twelve's power was just used to recreate a proven method of containing Bahamut (which would be a pretty lame excuse).

There's just too much potential here for good story. I'd hate to see SE answer it away with an afterthought.

If Eorzean history is to be believed then the 12 should predate the Allagans. Afterall, there have been plenty of other civilization before Allagan came to be its just that they probably advanced so much more than these past civilization.

I may be wrong, but another Kingdom -Meracydia- was able to defend itself against Allagans for a long time. And according to the SMN questline they specialized in summoning but once conquered their summoning (and maybe sealing) arts were assimilated withing Allag.

From what I recall, Bahamut had nothing to do with the earthquake that killed the Allagan Empire. Doesn't the text say "a miscalculation" caused a power surge that triggered the quake?

Amon, Xande, Scylla, etc... were all IN the tower at the time as well. The quest stated that Amon froze time w/in the Tower when it was sinking.

I may have wrong information on the tower and the details of it's fall and yes, The Twelve should predate the Allagan.

Why are we seeing one Allag Dalamund and another near, if not, identical Dalamund clearly created by The Twelve and/or their power? That's the question here.

Gaius Van Baelsar compares the twelve to the primals and theorizes that they could be summoned if someone used sufficient crystals. There's even the Little Ala Mhigo arc in the main story line which details a group of refugees who hoped to summon Rhalgar, the Destroyer to use against the Garlean empire. I've noticed that whenever you have a quest in which a primal is summoned with the single exception of Ramuh, the crystals are in fact labeled as "tainted," or "corrupted." which means that they are more akin to Zodiark instead of Hydaelyn, and that it's probably possible to summon a Primal similarly to Ramuh in a fashion where they are more benevolent like Hydaelyn. It's detailed that these corrupted crystals were being provided by the Ascians in order to complete the Ultima Weapon which is what they were going to use in order to bring catastrophe to Eorzea.


It's possible that while some races may revere a primal, it's quite obvious that not all primals consider them worshippers due to what Leviathan did to his priest. This means that it's very possible that a Primal/Eikon are just entities that exist in the Aether, and that the 12 are primals who offer small portions of their power to help the wandering races while they reside in the Aether. If this is true, then the twelve would definitely have pre-dated the Allagan, and the reason for the second seal failing was because Bahamut was only sealed with the combination of both the twelves power and the technology of the Allagan.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

...and the reason for the second seal failing was because Bahamut was only sealed with the combination of both the twelves power and the technology of the Allagan.

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Did you mean to say that the 1st was successful because he was imprisoned by both Allag tech AND power from The Twelve and that the reason the 2nd was unsuccessful was because it was only The Twelve's power attempting to contain him?

It makes sense. I was actually beginning to wonder how the Allag imprisoned Bahamut in the first place. (Like, did they just ask him nicely to sit still while they built Dalamund around him OR was Dalamund a giant Poke-Ball?) With the Allagan supposedly having advanced knowledge in summoning, I could see this as probable. However, without more information, any theory we come up with is just as crazy as the next.

Until someone can dig up some proof either way, I'll stick to mine, if only because it's more fun. If an extra-terrestrial race came by tomorrow and posed as the gods of Norse mythology, we'd never know the difference. So, what's to say it couldn't happen on Hydaelyn?

If someone did the 2.3 main scenario you would know that the allags built Omega weapon to defeated Bahamut. Maybe they used omega as a way to hold bahamut until Dalamud was finished

There does seem to be the potential for a game of "history telephone" being played here, but we cannot be certain. Legend states that the gods walked among the spoken races until the first umbral era. There were Allagan Runestones in 1.0 that had the symbols of the gods on them. We infer from this that knowledge and worship of The Twelve dates at least as far back as ancient Allag. We have no commonly known physical objects in game with a connection to the gods that is older than these runestones.

If you're like me, though, you might believe that there is more to the symbols of the gods than just being symbols that represent the gods. They might hold the secrets to magic, arcanima, or something else entirely. Though there is no blatant evidence to suggest this at present, certain truisms in the real world lend credence to these symbols having other meanings before they became associated with The Twelve. Modern Christian holidays, for example, were mapped onto Ancient Pagan ones as Europe of Antiquity was converted to the new faith. Samhain became Halloween, Saturnalia became Christmas, and the list goes on. The closest we can get to a suggestion that our symbols have multiple associations is that the Ixal make use of some of them. We have no obvious answer as to why. Garuda, being fairly capricious, would not tolerate her chosen people worshiping other gods. So the question of a larger implication for these symbols remains unanswered while the slightest hint of greater significance remains.

Personally I've long held onto the idea that The Twelve, The Primals, and The Elementals all have a common link of some kind. And that link may very well rest withen, as the Ascians put it, The TRUE nature of the Echo. We know little about the primals and elementals, even less about the Elder Primals and The Twelve, and next to nothing about the Echo. So it's possible that the closer we get to the Ascians the closer we will get to understanding The Echo. Which also has a verry real risk, that once we find the truth with the Echo it may turn out that we are fighting for the wrong side. After all as little as we know about it, we still know more about the Echo than we do the Natures or Identitys of Hydalin and Zodiark. The Ascians how ever seem to not only understand the echo but also how bestow it AND how it really operates .

For all we know The Ascians them selves could be the Twelve and Hydalin could be what happened to Zodiark after the Fall of The Divine Era.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Personally I've long held onto the idea that The Twelve, The Primals, and The Elementals all have a common link of some kind.

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I find there is no reason to believe the Twelve are anything different from Primals. (and I *thought* there was some game text implying or suggesting this, but I could be making that up). Memes given physical manifestation by the combined will of a people and the power of the crystals. Of course, you create a feedback loop when you do this: what can be interpreted as the existence of these beings reinforces them in the peoples' consciousness.

Incidentally, you can expand this idea to explain both crafting and converting gear into materia. The crafter uses the component materials and their own will (fueled by crystals) to "make" the end product. When you convert to materia, you remake it into a crystal, but the crystal has gained "experience" or memory of how it was used, thus making materia instead of crystals again.

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Originally Posted by Fangul

I find there is no reason to believe the Twelve are anything different from Primals. (and I *thought* there was some game text implying or suggesting this, but I could be making that up). Memes given physical manifestation by the combined will of a people and the power of the crystals. Of course, you create a feedback loop when you do this: what can be interpreted as the existence of these beings reinforces them in the peoples' consciousness.

Incidentally, you can expand this idea to explain both crafting and converting gear into materia. The crafter uses the component materials and their own will (fueled by crystals) to "make" the end product. When you convert to materia, you remake it into a crystal, but the crystal has gained "experience" or memory of how it was used, thus making materia instead of crystals again.

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Wow. /10char

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Originally Posted by ExHeroKid

Wow. /10char

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Going a little further, let's assume that the Aether is roughly equivalent to the Lifestream from FFVII, the stuff that imbues life and consciousness, existing in everything, but in greater concentration in living things. And also that crystals are Aether. This would mean it is theoretically possible for some piece of your life force to crystalize (I think we have some evidence of this in creatures that drop crystal shards, for example, though whether those crystals originate from their life force directly or not, I wont' speculate). Now, I'd assume this would be some kind of cycle (I'd compare it to the water cycle), so who knows how much time would pass between death and some "unit" of the life force that previously comprised "you" to crystalize and return to the world of the living, but it does imply that it is theoretically possible that some part of "you" could be reincarnated as pants.

So, while we still can't explain the similarities between Dalamund and the second prison that began forming around Bahamut in the End of an Era trailer, I think I may be on to something with the Allagan and ascension after all...

[Spoilers Below!]


At the end of the 2.4 story, Minfilia drops some hints on the next patch, the next crystal tower expansion. Now, I forget the exact wording but Minfilia says the students of Baldesion have been disappearing from all over Eorzea, along with what I believe is their home island...and that they were studying/practicing some sort of ancient ritual ("reunion"?). Reunion is what I took away at least.

The students of Baldesion that we've encountered so far have turned out to be Allagan, no?

Could it be that these Allagan "students" are studying the ancient knowledge of their people, their goal being spiritual enlightenment (ascension), allowing them to reunite with the rest of their people in a higher plane? It may be a stretch but I can't help but jump at any hint toward my existing theory being correct.

What, if not ascension, could be happening to these "students", and who is their teacher, Baldesion?

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

So, while we still can't explain the similarities between Dalamund and the second prison that began forming around Bahamut in the End of an Era trailer, I think I may be on to something with the Allagan and ascension after all...

[Spoilers Below!]


At the end of the 2.4 story, Minfilia drops some hints on the next patch, the next crystal tower expansion. Now, I forget the exact wording but Minfilia says the students of Baldesion have been disappearing from all over Eorzea, along with what I believe is their home island...and that they were studying/practicing some sort of ancient ritual ("reunion"?). Reunion is what I took away at least.

The students of Baldesion that we've encountered so far have turned out to be Allagan, no?

Could it be that these Allagan "students" are studying the ancient knowledge of their people, their goal being spiritual enlightenment (ascension), allowing them to reunite with the rest of their people in a higher plane? It may be a stretch but I can't help but jump at any hint toward my existing theory being correct.

What, if not ascension, could be happening to these "students", and who is their teacher, Baldesion?

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You mean "Rejoining". Which is dimensional compression. The Isle of Val simply disappeared from reality. Disappearing from reality + stuff with dimension = went into another dimension. Willingly or not, it's the most likely explanation.

The Students of Baldesion aren't Allagan, Doga and Unei were because they were clones. Big difference. Also, it's a bit fuzzy since it was 3 months ago, but didn't they lie about being from the Students?

Finally, we know there's a Krile in the Students of Baldesion, and in FFV there's ac character named Krile Baldesion ;o Either her, or someone from her family.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

You mean "Rejoining". Which is dimensional compression. The Isle of Val simply disappeared from reality. Disappearing from reality + stuff with dimension = went into another dimension. Willingly or not, it's the most likely explanation.

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That's it, thanks! How'd you get dimensional compression from "Rejoining" which by definition means "to reunite"? Regardless, I'd argue that a separate plane of existence could = another dimension, but...

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Originally Posted by Alenore

The Students of Baldesion aren't Allagan, Doga and Unei were because they were clones. Big difference. Also, it's a bit fuzzy since it was 3 months ago, but didn't they lie about being from the Students?

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...you have a point here. I can't recall if they were lying or not either. I pay plenty of attention to cut scenes as they're happening but details like these slip my mind pretty quickly with everything else going on. You're right in that they are clones, and it would make sense for them to pose as the students in order to access the tower.

There's definitely a link between Crystal Tower, the Allagan and The Students of Baldesion though, as evidenced by the story itself. I would say that Cloud of Darkness is a contender but the portal we saw was opened by Xande within the tower, correct? I doubt it would be popping up all over Eorzea, consuming islands and (according to you) the "unaffiliated" Students of Baldesion. She, CoD, is likely going to remain, or is only able to manifest itself, there in the tower. Besides, it's the students that are responsible for their disappearances anyway due to this "rejoining" they were taking part in...gah, I hate cliffhangers!

We'll have to wait and see what happens, I guess. There's still far too many missing pieces.

There is of course the possibility that Minfilia wasn't talking about the crystal tower story expansion at all, that it was eluding to the next main story in some way, in which case, this discussion is pointless lol.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

That's it, thanks! How'd you get dimensional compression from "Rejoining" which by definition means "to reunite"? Regardless, I'd argue that a separate plane of existence could = another dimension, but...

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Simple, they simply state it during the quest :)

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

...you have a point here. I can't recall if they were lying or not either. I pay plenty of attention to cut scenes as they're happening but details like these slip my mind pretty quickly with everything else going on. You're right in that they are clones, and it would make sense for them to pose as the students in order to access the tower.

There's definitely a link between Crystal Tower, the Allagan and The Students of Baldesion though, as evidenced by the story itself. I would say that Cloud of Darkness is a contender but the portal we saw was opened by Xande within the tower, correct? I doubt it would be popping up all over Eorzea, consuming islands and (according to you) the "unaffiliated" Students of Baldesion. She, CoD, is likely going to remain, or is only able to manifest itself, there in the tower. Besides, it's the students that are responsible for their disappearances anyway due to this "rejoining" they were taking part in...gah, I hate cliffhangers!

We'll have to wait and see what happens, I guess. There's still far too many missing pieces.

There is of course the possibility that Minfilia wasn't talking about the crystal tower story expansion at all, that it was eluding to the next main story in some way, in which case, this discussion is pointless lol.

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FRom what I recall, when the Island of Val disappeared, they said the aeteric signature was very close to Ultima. It's much more an Allagan plot than CT related :)

Recall also that the Ascians call the calamities at the end of each astral era a 'rejoining' as well. In 2.3 Elidibus makes mention that Eorzea has survived 7 rejoinings now and the next will be the last.

Whatever this dimensional compression is, it's also what the Ascians are trying to achieve.

Alright, I finally had the chance to listen/read over Gamer Escape's Lorecast with Fern. From it, I think it's pretty safe to say that A) The earthquake itself ended the Allagan empire and the lives of most of its' people and B) The Allagan were technologically advanced but not mentally or spiritually advanced enough to ascend like Daniel Jackson from Stargate SG-1.

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws....1412476656.jpg

So, with my insane conspiracy theories out of the way we're back at my original question:

Why does Dalamund and the summoned prison from the End of an Era trailer look so damn similar? There's gotta be some way to explain it.

I'd say simply because both has the same goal, and Louisoix simply used the power of the twelve to recreate a similar prison for our favourite world-destroyer.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

That's it, thanks! How'd you get dimensional compression from "Rejoining" which by definition means "to reunite"?

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They state that there was a disapearpence of researchers from all over, along with the Isle of Val. The common link was they were all investigating dimensional compression, which 'the ancient texts call Rejoining'.

Also, I understood that the isle of Val was just an outpost of Sharlayan and the Students, not their main base. After all Moen came from somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

They state that there was a disapearpence of researchers from all over, along with the Isle of Val. The common link was they were all investigating dimensional compression, which 'the ancient texts call Rejoining'.

Also, I understood that the isle of Val was just an outpost of Sharlayan and the Students, not their main base. After all Moen came from somewhere else.

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Now the question is, "Why the Students of Baldesion" Are they too close to knowledge the Asceans would rather keep secret? Are the people from "Val" and the other outpost becoming Asceans? Is there some sort of truely Lovecraftian monster that absorbs matter from the material plain?