An Open-World PvP Zone or Two

Migrating the discussion over to this other thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...our-support%21

SE please delete this thread.

Unless the demand is extremely high, there will never be open world pvp or even a server for it.

Yes, they did a great job with the PvP... but I think you're missing the point here. The PvP in this game is not based on some overarching war of attrition between warring states, it's friendly competition meant to keep that from happening. Open world PvP doesn't fit into that. PvP zones DO. Areas set aside so that the optional PvP stays that. Optional. You start tossing in open world and it quickly stops being optional. You either PvP or you get harassed and griefed and otherwise inconvenienced for no better reason that 'just cause'. I don't play alot of MMOs these days cause alot of them seem to have this need to make PvP intrinsic to the experience, not what I call fun.

Have you seen this thread before?

You missed the part in my three-line post where it mentioned a person must opt in to it (opt, optional).

Also, can easily be explained in lore.

A place with no jurisdiction, a no man's land, zone has precious resources (Frontlines what), etc.

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Originally Posted by Nocte

Have you seen this thread before?

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Yeah. Entire server & dedicated zone aren't the same.

Again, it will only work if A) the demand is there and I mean a huge demand and B) said PVP area doesn't become the go to factor for grinding for whatever item is there that people need (like what the hunts had done).

read some live letters to understand why this isnt in the game now.
yoshi-p explains the whys and why-nots in the last or 2nd to last letter.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gurubashi_Arena

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gurubashi_Arena

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This type of thing would be awesome in ARR.

Added to wow in Patch 1.4.0 (2005-05-05)

We have this already
A PvP zone where the players agree to do PvP with entering this zone. And more zones like this are planned.

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Originally Posted by Felis

We have this already
A PvP zone where the players agree to do PvP with entering this zone. And more zones like this are planned.

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Yeah, more Frontlines. Which is fine. The original post, though, is asking for a general access area where PvP can also occur. They'd probably also want said area to contain important resources that would make players go there just so they can be harassed by the jerks of the world, like such people don't already do that in the Duty Finder.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

Frontlines is awesome & SE has done a surprisingly great job balancing PvP in this game... they were smart to make PvP-specific abilities/balance tweaks.

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Yeah, because stacking three healers is still balanced in FL. . .

Honestly, world pvp is the one thing I really miss from WoW, and that's the ONLY thing I miss. This game isn't built for it sadly; I've come to accept that. Still, if they were to do it I'd finally have the WoW-killer so many MMOs have failed to claim.

And what lore would be behind location where everyone attacks everyone? (and I dont mean that combat training frontlines)

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Originally Posted by Toodles

We should have at least one or a couple of these zones.

As long as it's a place you opt in to & doesn't provide exclusive bonuses you can't find elsewhere pve'ing or that aren't pvp-specific.

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YEAH~... wait, no. This is not the game for that crap. Sorry, but it will never happen. PvP in this game is an "extra" dish of half the meal.

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Go play WildStar, RIFT, World of Warcraft, ArcheAge, AION, AIKA, Perfect World International PVP Servers, Wakfu, etc.

http://i.imgur.com/jE2nrOw.jpg

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

And what lore would be behind location where everyone attacks everyone? (and I dont mean that combat training frontlines)

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Frontlines isn't combat training. Frontlines is the nations fighting over the Flats, but using Adventurers instead so's not to damage their alliance. Similar rational could be given for other PvP content.

Personally, I'd like to see the Sealed Castle and four Sealed Tablet locations mixed into a PvP region with 5 zones, for a FC Alliance verses FC Alliance siege/control type of PvP (aim being to control the Sealed Castle and fight over the Sealed Tablets to get the Sealed Weapons). Sandbox content like that needs to be implemented once and it entertains people for a long time with minimal updates. Much better than adding a new Coil every other update to keep people entertained.

Sandbox content is one thing this game desperately lacks. They could even be asked to make victory in Frontlines mean anything outside personal achievements, where' the Conquest style rewards for your servers winning Grand Company? The fact that it is in its own little instanced bubble is why they probably do need to drop the Grand Company aspect. If they're not going to do anything with it, why have it?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Personally, I'd like to see the Sealed Castle and four Sealed Tablet locations mixed into a PvP region with 5 zones, for a FC Alliance verses FC Alliance siege/control type of PvP (aim being to control the Sealed Castle and fight over the Sealed Tablets to get the Sealed Weapons). Sandbox content like that needs to be implemented once and it entertains people for a long time with minimal updates. Much better than adding a new Coil every other update to keep people entertained.

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Two words for this.... Server Limitations. XD

Combat is too slow anyway. People would just survive running to the zone lines.

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Originally Posted by SythSynner

Two words for this.... Server Limitations. XD

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Sadly, too often the case with this game. Almost makes me wonder why they even bothered redoing 1.0s servers if we're still going to have these issues...

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Originally Posted by Recaldy

Combat is too slow anyway. People would just survive running to the zone lines.

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No zone lines. Problem solved.

So you'd want just a giant single zone map then?

I'd rather get a duel option instead of an open world pvp zone.

I'd like a PVP zone as long as it is completely optional, with no exclusive pve type resources or pve quests that would require pve players to enter and get ganked. Maybe the zone could only be unlocked at level 50 after completing a FL & WD match. They'd have to limit communication with players outside of your party to prevent griefing. I'd like to be able to communicate with my FC though. Just a players class would be displayed like FL, and possibly the FC name for FC vs FC battles.

I kind of agree, I don't pvp much, but I can think of a few players that I wouldn't mind asking to step outside and woop they azz.

SE can easily copy paste that zone they added for TERA. Like TERA, we have three city states / factions.

The way I understood it was, you gather resources for your base using invis. items / sneaking around in an area that was shared with the other 2 hostile factions but the invis was so that you can be spotted up close. All three of the faction bases went into a vulnerable state after a certain amount of time and open for attack too. It was all open-world.

The only thing they need to fix though, is change it so that it's for PVP stuff only. In TERA you had to go in there for the best PVE stuff too, which was kind of dumb.

Thinking about it, they could always work Hamlet Defense into PvP;

-Give each Grand Company an area which is important because of plot. This area should be separate from the rest of the world, but not instanced (talk to a NPC to arrive there).
-Have a safe period where the NPCs in the area builds up its defenses through Desciples of Land and Hand trading in items. This would allow the addition of more troops or defenses based on the amount traded in.
-Every 2 hours one of the 3 areas becomes a PvP battlefield (First; Adders (attackers) verse Maelstrom (defenders). Second; Maelstrom verse Flames. Third; Flames verse Adders).
-If the attackers are successful, the Vendor back at the Company location has new wares (perhaps a new source of Potash/etc.? Nothing that would force PvEers into involvement). If the defenders are unsuccessful, they lose that vendor until they succeed in an attack.

You could even slap the original PvE version in there as well, and have it drop Allied Seals. It could just use the same zones during their down time, and play more like Besieged than whatever we got in 1.x...

As much as I love frontlines, PvP on this game is broken. I understand that it's because ARR is still in it's "baby PvP stage", just learning how to function. So naturally balance isn't great yet. Right now you can do one of the most cheapest tactics possible in PvP: chain-stunning people to death. All the modern MMO's I've played have had this, then removed it because it's wildly disliked and cheap. I have a feeling that this tactic will be here for a couple years because there is no hardcore PvP player base to QQ about it constantly and because of how slow PvP content comes out.

Anyway...@ the OP:

I'd like some OW PvP. We don't need no silly capture the flag as an excuse to try to kill each other. :D

Do want. A duel option would be nice too.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

As long as it's a place you opt in (read: OPTIONAL) to & doesn't provide exclusive bonuses you can't find elsewhere pve'ing or that aren't pvp-specific

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Then I don't get your request. You already have this in Wolves' Den and Frontlines. There's no way anyone not wanting to PvP could ever get in there. The only reason to have open world PvP is to draw in PvE players, but if that's the only way you can draw them in then they were never going to PvP to begin with. You have your exclusive PvP zones, what's the problem?

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gurubashi_Arena

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Except, this wouldn't be lore friendly. Frontline has its own lore, and is even VOICE ACTED to said lore by the Immortal Flames, etc. The main reason why Frontlines exists is that it's funded. Otherwise the GCs wouldn't bother and hand it over to

Crystal Braves

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

You have your exclusive PvP zones, what's the problem?

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It's locked away in an instance bubble? Winning has absolutely no affect whatsoever outside that match?

My number one issue with Frontlines is that you don't go there so your Grand Company can win. You go there so you can win and work towards those achievements. You go there so you can get the EXP/Wolf Marks. This is why people don't even get why we have a Grand Company requirement for it; SE isn't doing anything with the concept. They could, for example, at least have it so you bring back points to your server when you win (1 point for 3rd, 2 for 2nd, 3 for 1st), and they tally them up at the end of the week in an Final Fantasy XI Conquest style thing, but they don't even do that. Frontlines is just locked away in its own little bubble, as a lifeless, albeit fun, theme park ride.

The benefit of a true open world PvP event is the rivalry it brings. A sense of competition that they some how even managed to drain from Frontlines. What we currently have is "Everyone is a winner!" content, even in Frontlines. Everyone gets a participation trophy in the form of the rewards. Would be nice to have some content where the aim is to knock <insert rival Grand Company> off its number one spot.

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Except, this wouldn't be lore friendly. Frontline has its own lore, and is even VOICE ACTED to said lore by the Immortal Flames, etc. The main reason why Frontlines exists is that it's funded. Otherwise the GCs wouldn't bother and hand it over to

Crystal Braves

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Frontlines wasn't lore friendly either, until they wrote the lore for it.

This is the heart of the problem I have with PvP and those that want it the most, the desire for a loser. You can't be happy you won, you absolutely have to rub it in that you won by making it one-sided. To the victor goes the spoils, to the loser the ground. Any other result somehow invalidates your victory, no matter how well or by how much of a margin you won. I think Square did a great job to make the PvP inviting for all by having everyone win at least something. It's the only reason I like the PvP we have, I don't feel like I'm just tossing myself against a wall. Nothing about this invalidates a win, though. You still won. Then there's the other thing Square did right. Everyone in PvP is nameless. This was another sticking point among the PvP crowd, they wanted to see names. There's only one reason to want that, to rub it in directly to those you beat. Seriously, there's no genuine merits to open world PvP that I can see.

Wanting victory/defeat to mean something =/= wanting to rub it in.

Competition is not a bad thing. Competition is a motivator. Motivators keep people trying. Keep people playing.

A closed off theme park ride where the status quo is restored after every ride has no competition. The only motivation to win in Frontlines is a purely selfish one; We need to win so I can get that mount. We need to win so I can get those achievements. We need to win so I can get Rank 40 and all the vanity gear faster. All of which are finite; eventually people get them. I would much rather see; We need to win so Maelstrom/Twin Adder/Immortal Flames comes out on top. That is a competition that never ends. It is sandbox-like content that keeps people coming back time after time.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Wanting victory/defeat to mean something =/= wanting to rub it in.

Competition is not a bad thing. Competition is a motivator. Motivators keep people trying. Keep people playing.

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Except that wPVP inevitably turns into a grief fest. Look deeper at the community that wants open pvp and you'll find some griefers. Do I think that all or most wPVP players are griefers? No. But enough are to make the whole idea unpalatable.

The lengths that SE would have to go to to make an open world zone - isolate it, warn players before entry, increased reporting for exploits/harassment, ensure that resources that are available there are also available elsewhere, and put it somewhere that people can't accidentally stumble through; make it a pain in the rear. And they would have to go to those lengths to get a goodly number of PVE players, myself included, to not unsub if they implemented it.


Also, frontlines is competition. Maybe not one you like, but it's there and it has rewards that people want. wPVP likely wouldn't be offering anything new in the reward category.

Now dueling in an arena area? Cool. I'd love to see that actually. I wouldn't do it, but I think that would be a cool feature. Just not the duel spam that happened in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Wanting victory/defeat to mean something =/= wanting to rub it in.

A closed off theme park ride where the status quo is restored after every ride has no competition. The only motivation to win in Frontlines is a purely selfish one; We need to win so I can get that mount. We need to win so I can get those achievements. We need to win so I can get Rank 40 and all the vanity gear faster. All of which are finite; eventually people get them. I would much rather see; We need to win so Maelstrom/Twin Adder/Immortal Flames comes out on top. That is a competition that never ends. It is sandbox-like content that keeps people coming back time after time.

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If they were going to add a system where one GC gets a bonus over the others, most likely they'd just copy/paste what they did with XI and make it so whatever GC has done more FATEs/Leves/etc in that zone, gets a bonus while in that zone.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

sorry, but we can invent lore that makes sense for Frontlines, we can do it for friendly GC competition inside an arena. Bragging rights people.

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It is a valid argument as the lore for frontlines makes no sense. It was wedged in a half-arsed way. It only makes sense if you're trying, desperately, to justify a battleground between factions. Nothing against frontlines mind you, but lore is a perfectly valid complaint.

Back when I played WoW, I decided to try out some light PVP content, just to see what it was like. Specifically, I tried capturing the towers in Eastern Plaguelands. Now, this was after Burning Crusade had launched, and so high-level old-world zones like that were mostly abandoned. Not abandoned enough, however. I got ganked, and then, when I ran back to my corpse and revived, I got ganked again. By the same guy. Third time, I ran back, but rather than reviving immediately, I looked around a bit, and found the guy waiting for me to revive. Not knowing how to turn off PVP at the time, I wound up corpse-running all the way to a safe zone, because this prick apparently never got tired of ganking a newbie long past the point all his gear had broken.

And that is also why I don't want to see Open World PVP in FFXIV. As it is, I already hate the concept of ANY PVP in FFXIV, but at least it's completely closed-off and seperate from the rest of the game, and I don't have to even acknowledge its existence, as it will NEVER affect me.

So, yeah, sorry, but by my experience, anyone who WANTS Open-World PVP is no better than another griefer who just wants to see regular players such as myself littering the ground while they teabag the corpses.

Ever since that occasion, I refused to touch anything even vaguely related to PVP with a 10-foot-pole, no matter how cool the reward looked, no matter how much the developers or the game promised it'd be 'all in good fun'. Because I knew that griefing jerkwads like that would be around, no matter how 'friendly' the game claimed to be.

LOL sounds like a legit suggestion 10/10 I am entertained.
I would be fine with it personally, the responses from all the carebears just made me laugh though.
You will be hard pressed to get up enough support with this playerbase, they enjoy their crappy combat and simplistic class/jobs.(didnt think it could get more basic than WoW but damn I was wrong). So i'd just settle in honestly, seems pvp games dont tend to be very popular now a days anyway, shame really humanity is so good at killing each other too. Oh well. But hey in other news they gave us FL so we can toy with that. Maybe theyll let us suggest a battleground that isnt a zerg shit hole but will have PvE elements so even the carebears can possible win just like in FL. Thinking along the lines of Aion with it's instanced dungeon but there was more than just one party in the dungeon trying to complete objectives to complete it.

RDM PLEASE ALREADY

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Originally Posted by Gralna

If they were going to add a system where one GC gets a bonus over the others, most likely they'd just copy/paste what they did with XI and make it so whatever GC has done more FATEs/Leves/etc in that zone, gets a bonus while in that zone.

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Would also be nice. This game completely lacks real competition, sad so many people seem to deathly allergic to it... My suggestion earlier was literally just a closed off open world zone that PvEers could easily just not go in, but apparently I'm just a griefer who want's to dance on their corpse... Literally all I want is content that doesn't dangle a carrot in your face that needs to be replaced each patch, I just want content which takes a carrot and passes it around factions so players can dangle it in each others face. You'd think the developers would jump at the chance to release content that lasts, instead of having to replace it every patch...

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

It is a valid argument as the lore for frontlines makes no sense. It was wedged in a half-arsed way. It only makes sense if you're trying, desperately, to justify a battleground between factions. Nothing against frontlines mind you, but lore is a perfectly valid complaint.

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Omega Weapon is buried beneath the Flats and in order to prevent anyone (or a specific someone) from getting their hands on it, they turn the area into a battlefield and have Adventurers fight instead of their own troops to keep their alliance in tact (and also because we're undying and blood thirsty) and allow their forces to focus on other matters. Seems fairly logical to me... Or would it make more sense to hand over the region to a fledgling organization that doesn't have the numbers to secure the site?

It's pretty standard to have a pvp zone in your modern MMORPG. Since FF 14 has gotten away with playing catch up(since Reborn's advent) due to being part of the Final Fantasy franchise. I do not believe it would be unreasonable to add a PVP zone.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Omega Weapon is buried beneath the Flats and in order to prevent anyone (or a specific someone) from getting their hands on it, they turn the area into a battlefield and have Adventurers fight instead of their own troops to keep their alliance in tact (and also because we're undying and blood thirsty) and allow their forces to focus on other matters. Seems fairly logical to me... Or would it make more sense to hand over the region to a fledgling organization that doesn't have the numbers to secure the site?

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So they turn the flats into a free-for-all proxy war? Oh yeah. that makes perfect sense. If the alliance has an objective (prevent a rogue element from capturing omega), why wouldn't they do a joint strike ala what was done with the attack on castrum? Oh, that's right, because it wouldn't justify turning the area into a pvp instance.

Look, I'm glad the battleground is there. Out of sight and all that, but the lore doesn't make sense.